grendel,

Not sure why you responded as though I'd told you she's telling the truth. Straight off, I said, "I agree with BK that you are NOT getting the whole truth, " What WE believe doesn't make it so, though...

Sounds to me that the reason you haven't taken her up on her offer to polygraph is that you're really conflicted about walking away if she's lied.

Caught between love and pride. Tough territory.

Look, why don't you suspend your decision about what you'd do if it turns out she's guilty as charged? Right now, your torture is in not knowing.

Allow for the possibility that you won't feel like you think you'll feel, this time. There's a baby involved here, quite possibly yours. A life and a future. Even if Z is lying, hope is not lost IF she will honestly work with you to make amends and build an honest marriage. Hard as he**, but it CAN be done. Many of us here are living proof.

You can always decide to walk if you can't bear the truth. Decide once you HAVE the truth, is my suggestion.

Right Here Waiting

Grendel.

If you read this site info, snooping to protect a marriage is always fine.

Some folk here have had their wife's mock wanting to take a polygraph. They didn't and BS's were busted.

I am concerned with your g/f loose attachment to marriage. I wonder how you will cope in later years.

One or both of us just misunderstand. It seemed to me you and others were thinking I was buying what she was telling me. I don't, which is why I chose the title impasse, i.e. we can't get past this thing. Anyway, we're all on the same page now.


No, not conflicted. Dead certain. If it doesn't come from here by her own free will, and instead comes from getting busted, I am gone. That is not negotiable, my child or not. I can't live with myself otherwise. So the polygraph is a loaded gun pointed at our marriage. I'll use it if I have to, but I had hoped to avoid it.


This is absolutely true. Anything would be better than being pushed to the breaking point and questioning my ability to process data. I am a programmer. If I can't analyze data, if I can't be confident in my ability to give it form, I am WORTHLESS.


I can bear the truth, man. I have born a lot of ugly truths in my time here on earth, weathered some serious storms. I hauled my dad's bloody mattress to the dump from where he shot himself so my sister didn't have to see it. I can handle the truth. What I can't bear is knowing she would let me suffer like this for so long without giving me some relief. I can't go on in a marriage with someone, knowing they would watch me wither and die from the agony rather than face the consequences of their choices.

My choices seem to have been whittled away to nothing, so the only path left is one where I may have to walk away, even if its my child. That's what kills me. But I won't be able to provide for the child if I do otherwise. I won't be able to believe in myself enough to do my job if I let it slide.

I am so screwed. Thanks for the advice, bro, I'll try to take it to heart. I've been real alone with this for a long time.

~emphasis mine

*Note I did read the long, long, long, long, long other thread in it's entirety...What do I win?

grendel, [Brace yourself, I'm gonna be blunt]

Being that you've been a BH prior to this, can you please tell me what you were thinking when you got involved with a woman that is STILL MARRIED??? No matter how you slice it, NOT DIVORCED = STILL MARRIED! [Not to mention what in the world would make you answer an ad where the woman TELLS you that she is DIFFICULT? ]

On top of that, now she is pregnant, and STILL MARRIED to someone else...Do you understand that her legal husband could very well make a claim to this child that MIGHT be yours?

grendel, the very fact that you are calling this woman who is NOT your wife, "your wife", tells me that marriage is not exactly your forte. I don't think you quite understand what it is supposed to be...Marriage is not just a piece of paper...This nonsense of "We are certainly married in our hearts" is STRAIGHT out of the WS handbook! Do you understand that? The mere fact that you had to say "it's not an affairage or anything" is a HUGE RED FLAG! Rationalize or justify much?

I think you desperately need to get and read the book Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders by Dr. Harley...

Yes, I do think that your married girlfriend likely "cheated" on you...Yes, if you do want the truth you most certainly should have her take the polygraph, and absolutely you MUST have a paternity test done on the new baby when it arrives...

I'm sorry to be so blunt with you, but it seems to me, you need someone to tell you to WAKE UP...

Good Luck...

Mrs. W

AND...on top of all that, your married girlfriend has been a WS in her marriage...She fully admits to an EA!!!!!!

grendel, can you explain why in the world you would be so anxious to jump from the fire into the frying pan?

How long have you been divorced from your WW?

Mrs. W

AND grendel, the fact that she is with YOU right now also makes her a WS...She is MARRIED, and it's not to YOU!!!

I'm "shouting" at you, because I want you to open your eyes and look at the GIANT tattoo on her forehead that says: "I AM A WAYWARD SPOUSE!!!"

grendel...I'm posting out of care and concern, so I don't want you to go getting all defensive on me...What I want is for you to LOOK at what you are doing, and save yourself the best you can in this really messed up situation!!!!!!

Mrs. W

You want the truth?

Can you handle the truth?

Then get going Sherlock.

Digital voice activated recorder in the house and her car.

Keyloggler on the PC.

Examine phone bills for excessive calling or texting to certain numbers. Real time GPS by hiding a phone in her car with that feature.

Once the child is born then DNA test.

Good grief grendel, now you've gone and made me start posting "BigKahuna Style"!

I just keep slapping my forehead when I think about your situation...I want to BEG you to LISTEN...

I don't think you gave yourself enough time to heal from the betrayals that happened in your marriage, and it's showing...and I'm sorry...I know this isn't gonna be easy...

(((((grendel)))))

Mrs. W

grendel, Dr. Harley has some pretty good articles about the folly of living together. Shacking up is a renters agreement that has an astronomical divorce rate when it leads to marriage.

As far as her behavior with other men, I would only point out that she is married to someone else. You want to be treated the same, but that is part of the problem. It is NOT THE SAME. There is a world of difference between married and just living together.

There are so many problems here that I wouldn't even know where to start so I will refer you to one of Dr Harley's articles about living together:

excerpt:

In my experience and in reports I've read, the chances of a divorce after living together are huge, much higher than for couples who have not lived together prior to marriage. If living together were a test of marital compatibility, the statistics should show opposite results -- couples living together should have stronger marriages. But they don't. They have weaker marriages.

To understand why this is the case, I suggest that you consider why couples who live together don't marry. Ask yourself that very question. Why did you choose to live with your boyfriend instead of marrying him?

The answer is that you were not ready to make that commitment to him yet. First, you wanted to see if you still loved him after you cooked meals together, cleaned the apartment together and slept together. In other words, you wanted to see what married life would be like without the commitment of marriage.

But what you don't seem to realize is that you will never know what married life is like unless you're married. The commitment of marriage adds a dimension to your relationship that puts everything on its ear. Right now, you are testing each other to see if you are compatible. If either of you slips up, the test is over, and you are out the door. Marriage doesn't work that way. Slip-ups don't end the marriage, they just end the love you have for each other.

What, exactly, is the commitment of marriage? It is an agreement that you will take care of each other for life, regardless of life's ups and downs. You will stick it out together through thick and thin. But the commitment of living together isn't like that at all. It is simply a month-to-month rental agreement. As long as you behave yourself and keep me happy, I'll stick around.

Habits are hard to break, and couples that live together before marriage get into the habit of following their month-to-month rental agreement. In fact, they often decide to marry, not because they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to each other, but because the arrangement has worked out so well that they can't imagine breaking their lease, so to speak. They say the words of the marital agreement, but they still have the terms of their rental agreement in mind.

Couples who have not lived together before marriage, on the other hand, have not lived under the terms of the month-to-month rental agreement. They begin their relationship assuming that they are in this thing for life, and all their habits usually reflect that commitment.

article continued here: Living Together Before Marriage

So you hooked up with a married woman, who is cheating and has a history of cheating. Now she is doing it to you.

The problem is not HER, but you. You CHOSE this with eyes wide open. You signed on for this.

This is like trolling for partners in the tobacco store when you can't tolerate smoking and then complaining when your partner smokes. You sort of lose the right to complain when you volunteer for it, wouldn't you say?

Can you see what you have done?

I might as well post what, after examination, in the core of my super long post.

I'll make a short list of what I did:

I lied about my whereabouts.
I was neglectful and hurtful being wrapped up in my own thoughts.
I was careless with time.
I took and returned calls from someone my husband believes had at least a one sided emotional affair with me.
I did not talk to him.
I did not trust him as I should have.
I did not treat him as a partner.
I had the equivalent of an emotional affair by myself, with myself.

What I did not do:

Have an affair emotional or physical with another person.


I have shot to shreds any credibility I had. I am trying, every day to earn that back. I am addressing the things that make me behave poorly.

What I have identified as dangerous area for me:

I have a tendency not to trust others.
I convince myself I can handle things on my own.
I convince myself I am a burden if I talk about how I feel.
I do not take into consideration that I am not a single person, I am a member of a family.
I do not take into consideration how everything I do and don't do affects _everyone_.
I tell 'little lies' to cover embarrassing behavior.
I avoid confrontation with little lies.

None of these things require excusing, I don't need to justify them. What I need to do, what I have been doing is changing my behavior. Knowing the source of the problem does help to diagnose and yet its not nearly so important as implementing a cure.

;
;
;
;
I'll respond elsewise later.

With the exception of the semen on the shirt, your long story could be the same long story told by my cousin's son-in-law when her daughter was hiding a severe case of bulimia from him.

Long times away from the house: Eating and vomiting in choice locations some of the time; Meeting with a bulimia support group and/or friends from that group at other times.

Loss of interest in SF and other activities: Clinical depression caused by vomiting and poor nutrition screwing with hormones and brain chemicals.

Dressing up to the 9s: Losing weight and meeting with those bulimia support folks.

Sneaky trash disposal: wrappers from candy, chips, fast food apple pies, McRib sandwiches (He should have bought stock in McDonald's.)

Sneaky on the Internet: bulimia forum

Sneaky on the Phone: bulimia support folks

Easy bruising: hormonal imbalances due to repeat vomiting and poor nutrition (I know you said the bruising looked like fingers and thumbs, but that could be interpretation on your part.)

Anyway, I was just trying to figure out why she would volunteer for the lie detector. This might explain it if she thought the guy would never say, "Are you eating mounds of food and then vomiting it back up?" i.e. She could be cheating with food.

Another idea about the polygraph offer: Maybe she is "cheating" on you with her husband, as twisted as that sounds. Maybe she thinks that when the polygraph taker says, "Are you cheating on your husband?" she will pass with a "No." because in her mind she means: 1) "I do not consider that I am cheating on my husband because he knows about it"; and 2) "I also do not consider that I'm cheating on my affair partner because having SF with my own husband is not cheating." I don't know if a polygraph can be fooled with twisted thought processes, but maybe she thinks it can.

Then there is always the possibility that she volunteered to "prove" her innocense, figuring she'd find a way to get out of it if you agreed.

How is it you are planning a wedding with a married woman? Have they started divorce proceedings?

(By the way: My cousin's daughter's husband left her. The deception of her eating choice tore him apart more than if she had just done it out in the open. Fortunately they had no children.)

Just a note before I go run some errands.

The Sex thing:

I do not have a decreased desire for him. I can promise you that. That whole issue has snowballed. Mostly because of my tendancy to simply not speak up when I am hurt.

I would pester him... I mean at first I don't think there was a day I let go by without being very forward about my desire to have sex with him. He'd be ready to pass out from being tired and from drinking (no rubs about that, we were both drinking at the time and it was for recreational purposes not a problem) and there were nights I just didn't let up.

He is the first person in my life that I have had both an emotional attachment to and sex with. The first person I have loved and been physical with. The difference is extraordinary, to the point that in a more vunerable moment it drove me to tears.

However, he mentioned one time... and it was have joking but I only heard the half serious part, that it was too much, that one needed a bit of a break. I was embarassed and I felt like I was turning it into a chore. And I didn't want to say how that made me feel because I didn't want to have him acquiescing (now who says you never learn vocabulary from a pirate, 50 points to the person who gets that) out of obligation. And, once all this really blew up? I didn't feel as though I had a right to it. I failed, miserably and I felt--_feel_ as though I lost many of my privilages.

Zakal,
Maybe I missed it, but what is the explanation for this?


Personally, I think there is alot more that you are not telling, quite probably an affair. There are just far too many in Grendel's story. If you want to set the record straight, I think you need to force the polygraph option. Based on his last marriage, your story stretches credubility too far.

Oh, I understand this completely. I want the polygraph, I want the shirt sent in for full testing, I want a paternity test. This is science, or as close to it as is available. And to the person who said that why, if I was telling the truth would I go for a paternity test--- uh, duh? Because I am positive and he is not and this is an easy thing to do to settle that. Why would I refuse any of these things? Out of pride or out of guilt. I have no pride left and shame is different than guilt.

The whole J conversation:

If I have an IUD then my first concern is taken care of and if I just don't [censored] around then why would I need to worry about STD's?

Taken in the context of a conversation with a person of the opposite sex who quite likely has had more than a passing interest in me, any such discussion was inappropriate. I would like to point out, however, that it takes that being pointed out these days. The whole mantra is that you should have whatever friends you want and so on and so forth. And, from my position, in my own mind, nothing was happening and J of all people is not someone I would want.

See where this is going? I was making the choice alone about whether or not my contact was inappropriate with him not me and my partner together making the decision. It has taken time and a lot of reading here to make me understand this fully.

Of course I can see that. Again, I did not go blindly into this. When we made our commitment, we had this very discussion. I noted it as an area of concern for me, but I also noted that her husband had put her in a very awkward spot in that he himself was seeking relations outside of their marriage first. Her explanation rang true to me, and her understanding of the consequences likewise seemed to be fine. Perhaps I was mistaken, or perhaps I failed to provide proper support. I don't know. That's one of the many reasons I am here.

I'd like to engage you on the 'technicality' point, though. You're not the only one who mentioned it, but my response would be the same to others. I've watched you swing 2by4's here before, and usually, you are right, but I do think you're not properly applying Doctor Harley's methods in this case, and I will explain why.

I am familiar with Doctor Harley's position on 'living together', and I agree with it. But please note, Doctor Harley's position is based on reason, not on jamming square pegs into round holes, which is what I feel some are trying to do here. The reason living together without marrying is corrosive is that one or both parties are not 'all in'. They have a renter's mindset. They have the option of marriage, and deliberately reject it.

This is not our situation. The divorce process in California is onerous. I don't know why, but it is. An amicable divorce, where both parties are anxious to be done with it, will take a minimum of seven or eight months, because California will not finalize the divorce for six months after the court actually orders the divorce. By the time you get paperwork done, take time off work, etc, you add a month or two minimum to the process, more if you can't afford the time, or a lawyer, or just don't understand the process. For a contested divorce, or even one where there are minor disputes, it can take well over a year. My best friend is in going on his two year mark. He goes to court, things get shelved, come back in two months, etc. There is no end in sight for him right now.

The process is so screwed that the State of California itself has extra laws to deal with the fallout. Just one example: you can get in a truckload of trouble if you remove your spouse from the insurance before the divorce is final, because California forces people into a limbo state where they have moved on with their lives, but cannot legally marry or register as domestic partners. My wife and I, because we are decent people, pay her ex husband his monthly costs on this, because it is simply improper to take advantage of him in this way, whatever the law demands.

As a result, people here do often just make end runs around the idiocy in Sacramento. They make agreements among themselves and follow through, because it's the only way to move forward. Is it corrupt? Absolutely. But they have the guns, so they make the rules. There is a reason why California can't pay its bills, is mired in debt, and is currently handing out IOU's in lieu of tax refunds. It is run by idiots and crooks. As with ANY corrupt system, people work around it.

Our situation is different than the 'living together' Dr. Harley is talking about in his piece. He is talking about people who are deliberately not taking all the steps they can take, and the psychology behind doing so. We have absolutely taken advantage of all recourse we have to show our commitment. We joined our lives, bought a home, swore vows, and spent thousands on a wedding. The state of California does not currently recognize those vows, but they were made. It seems unproductive and unhelpful to be hung up on the recognition of an entity which can't manage it's own affairs.

At best, I could see that you are suggesting that even though I see it this way, perhaps she does not. However, that doesn't make sense to me, in that I can see no advantage for her not availing herself of the brutally unfair to men laws California has in place. Whether she is truly commited or not, it would be to her advantage to have our marriage fully sanctioned by the state.

I'm curious. Suppose we were a gay couple? Would Doctor Harley's methods be useless because the state does not recognize gay marriage? Suppose we were in the wild West or in ancient times, where the law was weak or non-existant, such that there WAS no government official to rubber stamp things. Would Doctor Harley say that this was not a marriage, even if the people involved, the families, and their communities accepted it as such, and oaths were sworn? Living together as Doctor Harley speaks of is in reference to hesitation and procrastination, and it doesn't seem to fit our situation.

I do not vanish into thin air if my driver's license expires. Nor am I released from vows I made simply because California hasn't gotten around to recording them in its books. We ARE married in every way we can control, and we ARE dealing with a crisis in our marriage. I don't think we can be helped here if we don't get that recognition, in that the problems we have will be misdiagnosed.

That said, I appreciate your candor and your taking the time to read what I say. I know you all mean to help us, and we are grateful for that.

Ummm, grendel, you want to know what Dr. Harley would say? Well since I'm clearly not Dr. Harley I can only guess, but I believe he would tell you that since Zakal is STILL MARRIED to someone else, you are NOT married to her...

And so what if the divorce process in California takes a long time? If it does, it does. Those are the rules. And if your love is so strong, it could and would certainly wait until her divorce is final...HOWEVER, the dating process should not even have begun before that critical step was finalized.

From dictionary.com:

adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

You are using a lot of rationalizations and justifications here...

How long were you divorced from your exWW before you began dating Zakal?

Mrs. W

Whew!!! Just finished the long version. And, quite honestly, I feel like I've just completed a work of fiction... Unbelieveable.

Your "wife" had sex with someone other than you--very blatantly I might add.

Also, on planet Earth, when soneone is not LEGALLY divorced they are still married and not free to marry anyone else.

You need to get far, far away from this situation sir. Far, far away. And, you need to conduct a DNA test on this child and perhaps the semen too. She had an affair with "herself"? I've never met a woman who can produce semen...come on...

I think you guys need Darth Vader--or perhaps Mr. Spock. Or, maybe a psychiatrist...Sorry, but it's the truth.

It seems to me that by this rationale, Adam and Eve could not have been married, either, in that their relationship was only acknowledged by God, and no controlling legal authority existed to stamp it with imprimatur of the state. Is that your position?

I don't think I am rationalizing. I think I am being rational. I have read much of Dr. Harley's philosophy, and the reason it works is because it is, ultimately, rational. Situations must be taken in context, and it seems to me you are applying a rule that was never meant for this particular context. The problems he points out are due to hesitation when other options are available.

At any rate, it is a semantic debate that detracts from the issue at hand. What is true is this: we feel the same way as any other couple who swore vows. Our problems are just as painful, just as real, and just as overwhelming as those encountered in a marriage recognized by the state. I feel just as betrayed and hurt. I do not care what the state recognizes or does not recognize. Vows were sworn to ME. The state does not enter into it, save for what it might point a gun at me and force me to do.

To answer your question, it was something on the order of six months after my divorce was final, and a year and a half since my ex wife moved and and we resolved that our marriage was finished. We delayed the actual divorce because she asked me to wait for the ten year mark so that she would qualify for social security benefits in the future based on our marriage.

Will you answer my questions? Is marriage not possible without an agent of the state recognizing it? Are Dr. Harley's methods not applicable to such unions? If so, why not? The simple truth here is that had we lived in another state, this would be a non-issue, and we would be focusing more on the real problem.

Again, please don't take my disagreement with you on this matter as ingratitude. I truly appreciate your time and conversation. But I am am something of an iconoclast. Social approval or disapproval has never been high on my list of ideals. Truth is my grail, and short of God, I reserve the right to be the final arbiter on that. That's why I am here. I need the truth.

Do you understand the concept of laws? You know, those rules that are made for us to abide by...

Well, one law is that if you have a legal contract (marriage) that it has to legally disolved before you can legally engage in another marriage?

There is no way around this no matter how you try to twist and spin it. It's almost like you're trying to analyze the creation of all space and time.... It's a matter of LAWS here sir. Do you get it?

Obviously not.

If you care about yourself AT ALL, you need to wake up and get yourself out of this crazy situation.