I am not making myself clear OH. I don't know how to state it differently.


If I hear this implication in your speech... what do you think your HUSBAND heres? Does it really matter what you meant, if it is exactly how you SOUND?

Wow. There's a lot of pent up resentment here.

CFIO, I don't *expect* anything. I *would like* to have certain things. I have needs, just like you have needs. And my needs include affection and conversation along with financial security and feeling like I'm part of a team and that my husband has my back. I'm not sure what you would call that need. But those needs have gone largely unfulfilled in my marriage. That's not to say that all men are unable or unwilling to fill it. I'm talking about *my* marriage. Maybe it happened because I didn't fill his #1 need and his angry attitude is the fallout. Or maybe his angry attitude happened and my lack of desire is the fallout. I don't know. Like I said, it's a chicken-or-egg thing. The ONLY thing that will change it is for both of us to fully buy into a program such as MB that will give us the tools we need to make changes to get us back in sync with each other. That means I'll have a much bigger sex drive and hopefully, he'll quit with the AOs, the DJs, and step up to the plate to contribute to the household. I don't have a whole lot of hope here but that's the way I see it. But that's my specific story. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think any couple can point to a specific point in time and say A-HA! YOU did it first. You quit filling my need so therefore I quit filling your need. And even if someone *could* do that, it's absurd and serves no purpose. Both have to agree the past is the past and start building the future. And if that's not possible then a person has to cut his/her losses, fold his/her hand and try to salvage some happiness.

I never dismissed the words in the article. I am not the one who tore it apart and said it was full of DJs (I don't think that it is). In fact, I recall thanking you for posting it and I think I said there was some good information in it. I am not disputing that this is the way men feel. But I have to be honest with you--this article implies entitlement for men the same way you are saying I am implying entitlement for women.

I simply tried to reply from the "other side" that women have needs and in my case, those needs have been largely unmet by my husband. This discovery has been huge for me CFIO because for 20 years, I have mostly blamed myself for what's going on in my marriage and I'm finally, really and truly coming to believe, down in my EMOTIONAL core, that that's not the case.

Cant,
My H and I commute together (1 hour drive). I sat and listened for an hour about Baseball and Arod. I could care less about baseball but because I know he has a need to have conversation with me, I sat and listened. Prior to MB I would have cut him off and went onto other subject. My sex drive is stronger than his. When he tells me he's not in the mood, I don't take it personally and hate him for it because I know he will more than make up for it next time. This is because we understand our EN (we did the EN questionnaire more than once - because needs change). Every relationship is different and requires different efforts. You have to find what works for you.

GG

Found the other article.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/mp/2002/summer/4.36.html



How Men Really Think about Sex
Discover 3 key insights into the mystery of male sexuality
Paula Rinehart, MSW

Ed sits across from me, during our counseling session, blowing the steam off coffee too hot to drink. A confident man in his late thirties, he searches hard for words that explain the unexplainable—why his marriage is ailing.

Really, it's a bit of a mystery to him. Other parts of his life are trucking along, he assures me. The small insurance agency he started ten years ago has taken off nicely. His son is finally getting to play quarterback on the high school team. He and his wife recently remodeled an old home. Running his fingers through thinning hair, he jokes about a receding hairline and how badly he needs to exercise. Finally, he gets to his marriage. No, things with Anne aren't all that good, he admits. They just haven't been on the same wavelength for some time. He has no idea how to make their marriage better. He hates to be in my office—it makes him feel too much like a failure. But he needs somebody to whom he can talk, someone he can trust.

I edge closer to the question I know I have to work into the conversation. "So … how's your sex life?" I ask.

Ed turns quiet. His eyebrow registers surprise at my forthrightness. "Well," he finally admits, "sex is a real problem." Ed looks back down at the floor and takes a gulp of coffee.

I know better than to retreat at this point.

"Sex is a bit of a problem," I say. "So how does that affect you?" I ask. Ed starts to talk now, as if someone waved a green light, and I have to work to keep up with all he's saying.

One of the unexpected gifts for me in turning fifty is that, suddenly it seems, I've become a "safe" woman. The men I see in the context of my family counseling practice talk far more freely about their lives. They confide their secrets. They actually put into words how they feel. Especially about sex. I hear about the male experience in ways I never heard before, and I think, I wish I could have understood where men are coming from earlier in my life. Maybe that was my problem: I just couldn't hear the longing, the emotional need beneath the raw physical desire. Or maybe there are other reasons that a man doesn't talk sooner. Perhaps life itself puts a sock in his mouth and he knows he dare not come across as anything but utterly confident, self-possessed, and brimming with testosterone. The fewer the words, then, the better.

In any event, what I hear from men has opened the world of understanding how they actually experience their lives—their sexual lives. That understanding, I realize now, holds the key to the empathy that brings a husband and wife together in ways that feel good and right to them both.

1. Sexual Identity

The best metaphor to describe a man's psyche is that of a seamless fabric. Men see themselves as a whole entity. If they feel good about their sex life then that sense of adequacy spills over into other important parts of their experience. And conversely, if their sex life is floundering, then the rest cannot be too far behind, they reason. Men have much less ability to confine their sexual experience into one small part of the whole.

Ed is a case in point. He claims that inadequacy follows him around like a dog nipping at his heels. He may be great in a boardroom—but he's not all that good in bed, at least by his assessment of his wife's desire for him. In his mind, it's only a matter of time until others discover that he's not as competent as he's cracked up to be. He tends to measure himself, however unfortunately, by how physically connected he feels to his wife. Sex is the clearest language he knows and it speaks volumes to the whole of him.

While a woman might say she's happy in her marriage even if the sex isn't all that great and hasn't been for a long time, her husband would tend to say their marriage is in jeopardy. There is much more resting on the sexual connection—for most men, anyway—because sex says more to a man about himself.


2. Sexual Affirmation

Clark rises at the crack of dawn to iron the police uniform he proudly wears into town each day. There is something about a sharp, crisp shirt that helps him face the challenge of his job. He never knows what will come his way—domestic violence, a routine traffic stop where someone pulls a gun, a child lost on streets that aren't safe. He just knows he has to be ready to make the right call in an instant.

He's encouraged that, so far, no negative reports have been filed on his performance. One slip on his part could brand his record for years—that's the downside of guarding the public, he admits. Clark is up for a promotion this spring and with a third child on the way, he needs all the favor he can get.

Clark would tell you that a good word from his police sergeant is music to his ears. He loves the work he does. But as he crawls into bed with his wife at night, he's admits that nothing can touch what a warm reception from her means to him. Somehow her touch makes the rest of the world go away—at least for awhile.

I have wondered, along with many women I'm sure, why sex seems to mean so much to a man. How does a tryst so basic, so fundamentally simple, cut through all the underbrush of a man's life and touch something at the core of him? George Gilder, in his wonderful book, Men and Marriage, puts words to this mystery. Gilder calls women the "sexually superior" gender. By that he means that our bodies mirror more about being female. We can give birth and breast-feed children—glorious acts of power and influence unavailable to men. Our bodies can actually house people; they are versatile. Only one sexual act—intercourse—reflects to a man that indeed, he is a man. And in that act, performance is vital. A woman can relate to a man sexually whether she is into the experience or not. If a man cannot perform sexually, it's a "show-stopper," as they say. Gilder writes:

Men must perform. … The man is less secure sexually than the woman because his sexuality is dependent on action, and he can act sexually only through a precarious process difficult to control. For men the desire for sex is not simply a quest for pleasure. It is an indispensable test of identity (emphasis mine).
Every day a man walks into a world that says, essentially, "Prove yourself. Prove that as a man, you have something worthwhile to offer." In ways both blatant and subtle, a man is evaluated and measured and stacked up against the next guy all day long. The big question in his mind, conscious or not, is whether he is man enough. Does he have what it takes to win the contract, win the woman, win the war? Sex, then, is not the only route to affirmation—but it is surely the quickest and most direct one for a man. It is a confirmation so deep that it is far more soul-ish than physical in nature. Sex means more to a man because, indeed, he hears in it a message about himself.

The way this plays out in a marriage is that when a man is turned down in his overture for sexual intimacy, it feels more personal than seems reasonable to either party. It feels like rejection. When it comes to matters sexual, a man tends to lose his normal hold on objectivity. Other situations he can see clearly. If his wife speaks irritably at dinner after she's had a hard day—it's not about him. If she overspent on her credit card, then she's got a problem she's got to solve. But when he's denied a bid for sexual intimacy, it feels to him as though he, himself, his very person, is being rejected. And only after he works to get past that awful feeling does he stand a chance of hearing that his wife actually does, in fact, have a splitting headache. This is, at least, the internal process that many men go through.


3. Sexual Angst

Each conversation I've had with the men I've counseled brought big "ah-ha" moments for me as I've listened to them talk about their encounters with sexual angst. When a man chooses a woman to marry, he knows he is limiting his sexual options to her alone. In the arms of this one woman, he rests the most emotionally vulnerable aspect of his being.

In talking to couples, a woman's pain in a relationship comes out clearly, and usually rather quickly. She longs (and rightly so) for a man who will truly hear her and understand what she's up against. "I bare my soul to my husband and he just stares at me blankly and slowly starts to edge out of the room," a woman may complain. You can sense the pain in the betrayal and disappointment she feels. It's nearly palpable sometimes. But often the same woman will miss entirely the irony of her situation. Her husband feels the same pain just as poignantly—only his sense of being overlooked, not wanted, not attended to is sexual.

A major breakthrough in a couple's life happens when they let their personal pain guide them to the heart of the other person. The awful way I feel when my husband backs out of an important conversation is a window into the way he feels when his sexual life goes begging. The pain we feel, then, can tutor and motivate us to reach out and touch the other person in the manner for which they long. And wounds long festering can start to heal, bit by tiny bit.

The great danger zone in a marriage is when we withhold anything in our power to give that would bless the other person. Perhaps that's why the Bible encourages couples to make sure that sexual love is given freely. "Stop depriving one another," the apostle Paul says, "except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer" (1 Corinthians 7:5, NASB). In other words, don't let your sexual life degenerate to a place where either of you feels that the other person could give love yet chooses to withhold it.

I am grateful for the window into male sexuality that I've been afforded. It helps me sense a little more how much God intends sex to be a physical representation—the model of a spiritual mystery that we will understand one day in the presence of the Lord. For now, we have an experience that bonds us for life with the heart of another human being. We have a frame that holds us together when the days grow dark, and there are no words strong enough to make everything all right. We have a place of shelter, healing, passion, and dare I say it, grace.

-----------------------------

Paula Rinehart is a counselor in Raleigh, North Carolina, and author of numerous books, including her most recent, Strong Women, Soft Hearts (W Publishing) to be released in July.

Ladies...

I have reacted. That is true. I absolutely do not mean to come across as I am sure I sound. I apologize. Yes... I am frustrated, because to me, I hear the same 'excuses'. But I know what I hear as 'excuses' are meant as 'reasons'.

I merely put these articles out, because when I read them... I was truly moved. Because up until I read them, I couldn't put into words or truly understand within MYSELF, what I thought about SF. I KNEW it was important to me! I KNEW its absence was detrimental to my feelings about my wife and my marriage. I KNEW that my feelings were NOT the same as my wife's or most women in general.

These articles are ME in print. They are MY feelings written by OTHER men. It is not far afield to believe that they coincide with more men than just the few who have posted here.

I completely understand, CFIO. I at no time meant to dispute that SF is NOT of supreme importance to you or any man (or women, either--it's just usually not the #1 EN of women). And it probably dates back to cave-man times when men had to be able to propagate the human race and spread the seed around. So I don't doubt that it's emotional and biologically driven and that's a powerful combination.

I was merely trying to point out that it's an emotional NEED and that women have emotional NEEDS and that one need should never supercede another. I guess I didn't make that clear when I said that affection is an ongoing thing and sex is an event. But like you, when you read these articles, my mind said "AHA", when I read Harley's book as he described my need for affection right down to the letter. And though it may not be biologically driven, it's painful when that need is not met.

So, I don't think we're on total opposite sides of the fence here. In fact, as someone previously pointed out, just the fact that we are both here on the MB website and reading the MB materials, probably means we have more in common than not.

RMJ... yes, several of my 'posts' here have been purposfully instigative and DJ'ful. As a point of reference, not of my true feelings.

CFIO, I had decided, as of the first of this year, that I was going to stop LBing my husband as best as I could and try to do whatever I could to fill his ENs. No, he has not completed the questionnaire but I'm pretty sure I know his top LBer and his top ENs... And the top, top one is the same--it's all about SF. Despite the fact that I honestly don't hold out much hope for this relationship, I figured I'd go out with a 'bang' (pun NOT intended) and at the very least, make some self improvements.

So, since the first of the year, I have been doing that. And not much has changed. Yup,there have been times I've turned him down and yes, he's pouted. And I've allowed myself to get drawn into fights and I've provoked fights. I'm certainly not anywhere perfect on this MB stuff. But here's where it hurts.

My biggest EN is going unfulfilled. Ok, maybe my fault because I haven't handed him the questionnaire that says I NEED THIS FROM YOU. At the same time, his AOs and DJs have continued. I still feel as though I'm only as good as the last good SF session we had--until I do something "wrong" and tick him off.

He continually shuts me down. If he isn't interrupting me, he's telling me I've told him X at least 3 times and he doesn't want to hear it again. Or he'll ask me why ABC matters to me so much. I've become totally gun shy sharing much of anything with him. And then it's "you're so secretive lately. I don't like it"

I've hijacked this thread and made it all about me. I'm sorry about that. I guess my anger and resentment and disappointment have just run over the banks of the river that used to contain them.

I just want some peace in my life and though I don't disagree with these articles, I'm beginning to become convinced that fulfilling my husband's #1 EN is not going to get me there.

See, this second article I like!

No DJ's, no 'if you don't put out THAT MEANS you don't love me,' just pure, unabridged needs and feelings.

If my guy showed me this, there would be nothing in it to get upset about. His feelings may not be my feelings, but they don't have to be and I'm just happy to know what they are!

I still think it'd be good if people'd follow up these articles with a bit of advice to women, though.

Because, as most marriages go where one spouse shows the other articles like this, I think BOTH of them are on edge about SF.

So, when she's told that she has to do it X times a week or he's unhappy, always be completely into it herself or he's unhappy, and admire his ways in bed or he's unhappy, what's a gal to do if she doesn't LIKE the sex as it's performed now?

Improvement of enjoyment might lead to more frequency, but to do that you need communication about the parts that suck.

Improvement of frequency might lead to more enjoyment, but to do that you're going to have some occasions where it's 'duty sex,' and, unless the woman 'gets into it when they get into it,' will also require communication about the unsatisfying parts of the sex, or she'll build resentment after a while anyway.

So, do you see where it's a kindness to women if you can make a switch from 'venting emotions' mode to 'OK, now let's POJA' mode? It's like the standard guy claim that they don't want to hear their wives talk about problems at work, they want to FIX it! Women work the same way, and it's especially trying if your hubby says the problem is YOU.

One thing I am very grateful for is finally realizing that SF is a very important way my DH shows his love for me...and that he feels my love for him through it also. For a very long time, I believed it was just his need to, well, have the physical release...which made me feel as if I was being used. Knowing that and accepting that has helped me initiate more, be more enthusiastic about it, and enjoy it more.

I think what still frustrates me though is my belief, note that I said my belief, that many men including my DH feel it is the most important EN for everyone. And that the expectations in having this EN met is far more important and necessary then any other. It should be met with enthusiasm. The wife should be thoroughly into it and not participating out of a sense of duty. Showing up and participating isn't enough where the EN SF is concerned...but is just fine when "meeting" the EN's of a wife who does not have SF as a top EN…if her EN’s are even considered important enough to be met.

I have talked with my own DH several times about what I need...the EN's I have. And although he doesn't dismiss most of them entirely, the ones he does try to meet, well it is either few and far between or he is meeting them out of a sense of duty...which just like SF, doesn't really have the same effect.

Through reading the posts here, there were a couple I wanted to point out and comment on. Please feel free to let me know if I am way off base in how I read them.


So basically you could have cared less about what she was saying but you listened to her talk...blah, blah, blah...because you knew it was important to her for you to listen to her. But were you listening, or were you just hearing her talk? If you weren't interested in what she was saying and just basically going through the motions to meet her EN...well, that is just about the same as your wife having SF with you out of a sense of duty. Sure, you are getting an EN met, but it really doesn't mean much if your partner isn't really into it…just going through the motion.


So are you saying it’s okay that a guy doesn’t fully meet his wife’s EN because at least he’s trying? To me, “somewhat inept and uneducated” sounds like an easy excuse. Women aren’t born knowing what will please their husbands in the bedroom. Sure at some point in our lives, we get the general idea but learning about our husbands, paying attention to their responses, figuring out what they like, trial and error…we have to educate ourselves in fulfilling the EN of SF the way he likes it met. Now I am not saying every wife does, goodness knows I didn't, but if a husband expects his wife to meet his EN for SF as he wants it met, shouldn’t he be expected to meet his wife’s EN’s in the way she wants them met? And if so, that means educating himself…not just “at least I tried”.

And I know in my case, “because it is not what they want to do” describes my DH’s resistance to meet my EN’s. And trust me this is not a DJ because he has told me exactly that.

My point is that meeting EN’s, no matter what they are, is a two way street. You can not expect your need for SF to be met with enthusiasm and full participation, when you will not do the same in meeting your wife’s EN’s. Just showing up but not truly interested in it and trying but not really getting it because you are “inept and uneducated” doesn’t really meet the EN for SF…but it doesn’t really meet the EN for affection, conversation, RC, etc either.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. Thanks for pointing it out more clearly.

And yes I agree with the "but I tried" excuse that many H's (mine included) fall back upon. He'll do the dishes and want "husband points". Or he'll do the dishes but leave all the plates on the kitchen table so that they're all crusted over the next day and when I ask him about it, he'll say "but I tried". Or when trying to meet my ENs. He'll buy me flowers and then get upset when I haven't oohed and aahed appropriately and thanked him profusively enough (in his mind) and then say "well I tried--I'm not doing THAT again". I can't even begin to tell him I'd much rather have a phone call during the day to touch base, or a "how was your day honey" question when I get home rather than all the flowers in the world. If I say that, I sound like a b*tch.

Now applying your logic, if I approached SF like that, he'd have some choice words for me!

got it

but I do hope that you can see the most basic challenges that women face in reference to their sexuality.

We can't take away the fact that we have babies....in reality, we should be able to embrace that fact.

But if you look at the responses here,
you can see how the socialization of women has contributed in this issue in marriage. I think the socialization process also is a contributing factor when women are unfaithful. They can't have sex with their own husbands because they don't feel like things are good in the M. But they can connect with an OM even knowing it's wrong by society's standards, because, well, anything having to do with sex in a less than perfect situation is considered *wrong* anyway. But that's another topic.

I don't understand why women continue to allow society to hi-jack their sexuality.

If more wives would get connected and learn what their bodies enjoy doing with their husbands bodies, then this issue would be moot. Excellent sex enjoyed by a loving, healthy monogamous couple is one of best promoters of good health. The hormones released into the bloodstream heal the body, bond the couple, and promote longevity (and research is showing that these benefits are highest in couples that fit that demographic).

Women have to understand that for most husbands, *he* will be pleased or attain highest SF satisfaction when *she* enjoys the embrace as much as he does. We fail to realize that once we learn what makes our bodies tick in our relations with our husband, SF will likely shoot to the top 3 of our own EN's (if not the top). We open the door not only to greater intimacy with our husbands, but deeper self-actualization within ourselves.

All of a sudden, a stroke of a finger along a cheek or the caress of warm breath at the temple speaks more than a thousand words ever will.

But we women have to put aside our negative feelings based on learned negative attitudes and give ourselves permission to enjoy our husbands whether they do the dishes or not (or even listen the way we think they should.

Why miss out on multiple orgasms because of dirty dishes and laundry piles? jmho

RareMama,
Exactly! Sometimes women don't realize what they can get back in return. Some don't realize they are the million dollar body when laying next to their husbands (heard John Gray say that). I went shopping today - got my black lace lingerie, red lipstick and scented candle - I'm ready for Valentines day.

GG

I think what CFIO is trying to say is that Affection is something everyone needs. To men SF = Affection. Not 24/7, that is ridiculous, but whatever his needs are. Needing affection 24/7 is ridiculous. How do you show affection while you are sleeping? how do you show affection when you are mowing the yard? I think CFIOs point here is to say that woman (as proven by this thread) minimize the importance of SF. For a man, SF provides 24 hours worth of affection, 24 hours worth of admiration, and 24 hours worth of conversation. If a man told his wife he was too tired today to provide any affection, admiration, or conversation, How do you think she would feel? Am I right CFIO?

You are absolutely correct. And I agree completely with your assessments.


AND EVEN BETTER...

It is the same thing for MEN!!

We can learn to enjoy affection without the implication that it has to end in sex. I loved giving my wife massages. She would sit in front of me on the floor, and I would massage her neck, scalp, and face. We would sometimes sit for over an hour without realizing it. Just watching HGTV... FOOD network.

I actually ENJOYED talking to her as well. Even the little conversations about how the day went. I enjoyed listening to her excitment the most. The subject wasn't always the best, but seeing her eyes light up, here dance about this her sneer about that was enjoyable in itself.

MEN can also learn to enjoy the things YOU enjoy. It will take some coaxing... to be sure. We don't typically get as a good 'end point' by watching you buy clothes as you hopefully will get making love to your husband. But I guarantee you, if every once in a while, after you finished buying the clothes, you stopped by Victorias Secret or even just the grocery store for some whipped cream... and it would make shopping for clothes a whole new experience for most of us.

Stimulus - response really does work. BF Skinner was a genious, and you all should really take it into consideration.

I have to break in an respond to a few of the posts here. I will keep them separate.

Nanowritersix, I know the point you are trying to make about a contract for sex once a day in return for $50,000 income, so don't think I am being critical. I am just adding to that.

1. Meeting emotional needs is not about keeping score or playing marital chicken by refusing to do what makes you a whole person because your Mr or Mrs did do their part first.

2. The funny thing about financial security is that a man who is a complete failure in the eyes of one woman for only earning $100,000 a year, looks like a prince to another woman if he brought home $50,000. Believe me. I have seen CEOs drop down from making $1,000,000 a year to $100,000 while treading water between jobs, and have their wives toss them out of the house like they were hobos.

3. Any woman who thinks about an AMOUNT of money as a prerequisite to, or reward for, sexual favors, is acting like a you know what. Don't expect any man to respect you for that.

Retread, you are a brave man-lol! Thanks for the caveat--it's always difficult to communicate respectfully through posts.

Meeting emotional needs is not about keeping score or playing marital chicken by refusing to do what makes you a whole person because your Mr or Mrs did do their part first.

Amen! And this is where MB is stellar, because they encourage you to fix yourself, focus on where you are deficient. You meaning oneself, not anyone in particular in this discussion.

Once a spouse identifies any need as lacking, a responsive spouse must fulfill that need to the best of their ability. A wholehearted effort to meet that need is crucial to reconciliation.

What people get hung up on, I think, is the idea that it will become one-sided. And that is a problem. So what if you fulfil your spouse's SF for six months and they are perfectly happy with your way of fulfilling that need. But your need for conversation and respect is not being met.

I think at that point you have to decide if you can live with that, or if this is not the person for you. If anyone here subscribes to Flylady, you know that she has a lot to say about this in her philosophy about cleaning and life in general.

She says sometimes people think the problems with their spouse are on account of their house being messy, that that is why their husband treats them badly.

But when some of the women finally got their house in order, they noticed one of two things happening: their husband either began cleaning up as well (because now they knew what to do) or their husbands found something else to treat them badly about.

So all you can do is your part in meeting ENs and eliminating LBs. Do it for a significant amount of time without looking for a return (6 months, a year, not the rest of your life) and then make a decision about divorce. I think the picture will be clearer then.