As I understand it, the WS should want to move back in. Don't force here in. Beware of a cake eating sitch (Still no pressure).

Good job with these improvements. Beware of AO's in your case.

AO's?

AO = angry outbursts

AO's from me or from her? I get angry at times, but not while she is around. Its more when Im sitting around thinking about all of the lies and deception. I of course also get mad when thinking about the 2 of them together.

Have you read about Emotional Needs?
What are her top ENs?

I just get the feeling you're not familiarizing yourself with the concepts here. If you want your marriage back you need to use all the skills and tools available to you. MB works, but you have to educate yourself about it.

Yes I have read it, I have even asked her to fill out the questionarre to help me understand her needs better. She doesnt want to fill it out but I told her it would really help me do more of what she wants me to do.

I assume her top needs are in this order:

1.Affection
2.Admiration
3.Honest and Openness
4.Conversation
5.Financial Support

Don't let that get you down too much. Most waywards have absolutely NO interest in working on the marriage, filling out questionnaires, and so on. In fact, I can't recall *any* wayward that would fill out a questionnaire.

I assume her top needs are in this order:

1.Affection
2.Admiration
3.Honest and Openness
4.Conversation
5.Financial Support

And here is what you're doing:

1. Clean the house (did it very rarely before)
2. Laundry (I have now washed all of her and my clothes and put everything away)
3. Cooked dinner every Monday (would NEVER cook before)
4. Not pushed or made her feel bad about not having sex (BIG deal to her)
5. Bought her meaningful cards, with small and meaningful gifts.
6. Taken the dog to see her at work (she loves that)
7. Taken her lunch to her at work.
8. Not spending excessive amounts of time on the computer (5-10 minutes at most when she is here)
9. Listened to her, to find out what she wants.

I see LOTS of domestic support there. Cleaning the house, doing the laundry, cooking dinner, taking her lunch. It's sweet that you're doing all that, but it's not hitting her radar. The dirty laundry doesn't bug her and the clean laundry doesn't make her think about what a great guy you are. It's just not important to her.

The card might fill an affection EN, as might taking the dog to see her. Those are pretty big stretches for affection, though and I doubt they're making many deposits in the ol' LB$

Affection is one of my top ENs, and here are some things that make big points with me:
Touch my arm lightly when you talk to me
Look directly into my eyes a little longer than you need to
Pet my hair absent-mindedly while we watch a movie or sit in comfortable silence
Grab my hand and give it a kiss when we're walking
Let your knee bump mine when we're sitting side by side
Play the thumb war game with me
Give me a back rub
Paint my toenails
Open the door for me and put your hand on the small of my back as I go through

Admiration should be given specifically rather than generally. "Wow, you're so great" does not carry as much weight as "You are so competent at X, I bet that puts you in high demand at the office".

Look for ways in which your wife is talented, competent, efficient, attractive (inside and out). Compliment her on those things. You get extra points for bragging about her to someone else, when she's in earshot and can overhear your bragging.

Openness and Honesty - share stuff with her. Maybe think of something from your childhood that you haven't told anyone else. Tell her about it, and let her know "I've never told anyone else about this". Let her know that you feel safe telling her things. Also it's imperative that you ALWAYS are completely truthful around her. Little white lies will destroy your relationship with her.

The card might fill an affection EN, as might taking the dog to see her. Those are pretty big stretches for affection, though and I doubt they're making many deposits in the ol' LB$

Affection is one of my top ENs, and here are some things that make big points with me:
Touch my arm lightly when you talk to me
Look directly into my eyes a little longer than you need to
Pet my hair absent-mindedly while we watch a movie or sit in comfortable silence
Grab my hand and give it a kiss when we're walking
Let your knee bump mine when we're sitting side by side
Play the thumb war game with me
Give me a back rub
Paint my toenails
Open the door for me and put your hand on the small of my back as I go through

I also do these little things, except the painting of the toenails!

I guess I just didnt see how much all these things mean, but I have been working on them.

Right now this is just so hard, because I am working so much to show her that I can change the way I was before but I am seeing nothing back from it. It is also hard because she doesnt live with me and it is tearing me up inside alot more than she knows. I have told her that it is very hurtful that she is not living here, but it doesnt matter to her. I guess she just wants to see me go through pain like she did before. I wish it would just stop and she would move back in, that way we can start working on things together.

Ok, so we had a counseling session last night. I asked my W if she wanted to go in by herself to begin with because she has problems opening up with me around. They spent about 45-50 minutes of a 1 hour session without me. I was then called in to talk for just a few minutes. My W says to me that she just needs some time to find her voice because she has a huge problem talking to me and communicating what is going on with her and us.

The counselor asked me if I was willing to give it more time, and I said its pretty much day by day. Its hard to just sit around and wait because we are not living together and its just killing me to go through this. I guess the love from her to me has been void for so long things will just have to work out with time, so we will see.

How was this handled in the past? When she tried to tell you how she felt, did you blow her off? Did you feel like she was nagging you? Were you defensive? Think back. When she tried to talk to you in the past, how did that go? I mean really early on in your R.

You have said that she didn't open up to you. Did you create an atmosphere where she could? Just a thought for your plan A.

Sometimes I would get upset, because some of the things she came to me with were ridiculous in my mind, accusing me of cheating and stuff like that.

I have spoke with her about this and told her I am willing to work on not getting angry with her when she comes to me to talk. Her personality is to be closed up anyway, its not just with me. The counselor said we need to both work on ourselves right now with time apart and then we will be stronger as a married couple together if things go that way. I think she may have grown to far apart from me because she says when she comes over to our apartment she is miserable. Its not even me she says, just that she doesnt want to be there. I wonder if we should move to a different apartment in the same complex so that it will change the environment for us.

Im trying hard to give her the time she wants, but I dont know how else to take this pain away than to have her around. When she is around I dont feel the pain near as much. I guess I am just so much more in love with her than she is with me. I dont understand how I can show this much to her and she doesnt want to have that in her life.

This is very important.
She has a hard time opening up, and then when she musters up her courage to come to you and talk to you about a difficult subject, you punish her for it.

If she accuses you of cheating, find out why.
Comfort her.
Make her fears (accusations) go away.
You are her protector.

FWIW I think your counselor should be dumped and you guys should do phone counseling with the Harleys. Your current counselor is going to encourage your wife to follow her "feelings". The Harleys understand that feelings follow behavior. Feelings are changeable and should not be relied on. Actions are what counts. Actions change feelings.

How do I get the contact info to do this? I will try anything at this point because I am desperate.

Jeff,

At the top of every forum page is the link to the Marriage Builders® Coaching Center.

But any way, here.

I would do anything I could afford to work this out, but that is just too pricey for me. I wish I could do it, because I am sure it is more than worth it.

Any other suggestions?

I sent her a text today telling her I wanted to express some feelings to her, and asked if she would like to talk tonight when we both got off work or if she wanted it in an email. She asked me to email her and so I did.

Here is the email:

Wife,

I have done a lot of thinking last night and today about what the counselor has said about you not being responsible for my feelings. Im sorry, but I just don’t feel that is true. You are the one who made me feel the way I do, so how does that mean you are not responsible for it? Wife, I love you to death but if this is what you want to put me through then I am going to have a very hard time to continue forgiveness. You need to take responsibility for what you did and face it like a mature person. I am not saying that to drag you back because I know you are not ready to come back. I am not going to wait hand and foot on you anymore though, it puts me through too much. I am planning on moving out of the apartment and letting you move back in there to take care of the dog and put in a 60 day notice. I am going to try to start my own life and if you want to be apart of that, then that is fine for now. I will not be a doormat anymore though. I don’t know if there will ever be a day that you want to work things out, but if so then I will have to evaluate it at that time. I can do the dating thing, but I will not live at the apartment anymore and go through loneliness in that magnitude. Im sorry if you are mad at me for this, but I am still willing to work on things, just not with being hurt so bad at the same time. I will still commit to you and only you during this time, and would tell you if I am truly leaving you. I love you, but you are putting me through a lot that I cannot handle right now. Once again, Im sorry but I have to take care of me, because that is what you are doing.

I am not ending things, but I need to do what I have to do instead of waiting around for your decision. I need to make steps forward.

Love you.

Im starting to think I need to do more of a Plan B, even though she says NC has taken place. She is not living with me so really there is no way for me to know. I was thinking about having a meeting tonight with me, her, and the person I will use as a contact between us. Telling both of them what I expect and starting the process of emotionally detatching myself from her. Any suggestions? We have no kids, no house, so there is nothing holding us together besides my love and want to be with her. I cannot make her stay with me and I am tired of waiting around, need to get on with my life if she is going to drift away more every day.

Jeff:

You went from Jeff to Husband4Life, and then you send a letter to your W that you basically want nothing to do with her in the space of a week.

So much for that "Husband4life"

You didn't even GIVE your Plan A a chance to be SEEN, much less FELT.

Had you posted that email here BEFORE sending it, you might have gotten some excellent advice to remove LB's, DJ's and maybe had a clearer idea of "What are you trying to accomplish?"

Because I have NO IDEA what your email was trying to accomplish.

You didn't reinforce Plan A. You didn't START Plan B. You didn't state to her your plan for fixing your marriage. You simply sent her an email that she can use to justify whatever she is going to do going forward. If she says: "No more dates then, because of your eamil" or "Same old Jeff, not thinking about ME!" Whatever. THAT wasn't your intent, was it?

So please, learn about DJ's and AO's and LB's. Learn about PLan A, and what it really entails. All that is available within these discussion pages. And on this website. And in His Needs, Her Needs, and Surviving an Affair.

Because Plan J? It's not working for you.

When you shout at her in a email. She thinks: OM doesn't do that!"
When you talk, talk, talk, about your changes, but never let her SEE those changes, than she thinks: "OM doesn't do what Jeff does, talking at me, he LISTENS!"
Since in your letter you are basically cutting her loose, she thinks: "Since Jeff doesn't want to be with me anymore, I have three more nights a week to vist with OM!"

Plan MB = a possible recovered marriage
Plan J = Divorce.

Think about it.

LG

I know, its very wierd to me how my emotions about this can change so drastically, so fast. I really dont know what to do anymore. I feel like if I make it more of a chase for her, she will be more willing to come back because she will see what she is losing. Its been about 6 weeks since I found out and 2 weeks since she moved out. I have too much trouble sleeping in our bed, and looking at marriage pictures around the house. That is why Im moving out and I have told her that. I spoke to her about the letter I sent, and even sent another letter after that, using another members letter on this site, editing it in my own way.

What I am trying to accomplish by the letter I posted is:

I am going to work on me while she is doing the same. I am here for her, but I will not do scheduled dates anymore. I dont want her to feel like she is forced to spend time with me and it will be better if she initiates it because she wants to be around me. I know the letter doesnt exactly get that point across, but I did talk to her and clarify what I wanted out of this.

That's why you need a concrete plan. You need a static goal and specific actions you're going to follow in the hopes of attaining that goal. You cannot trust your feelings nor can you act based on your feelings.


Gonna make it hard to meet her ENs. I don't see the LB$ filling up very quickly at this rate.