Thought I might offer my insight:

First I have to say that SDCWman you are so right - this is how it was for me:

I

Grew to feel disconnected from you in her marriage
Blamed you (exclusively or primarily) for that
Chose to nuture and harbor resentment toward you and self-entitlement for herself
Devalued you & your M to the point that she became emotionally/romantically vulnerable to outside person(s)
Failed to effectively communicate any of this to you (where it belonged), & ultimately...
Indulged in satisfying her desire for validation when an opportunity arose, casting aside her values & vows to the contrary in the process

And this...

Even this surface description doesn't do it justice because she undoubtedly lied, denied, & concealed it to you and defended & rationalized it ad nauseum to herself (and anyone else that would listen) along the way. People don't hide, whitewash, or feel the need to justify that which they are PROUD OF and HONORED BY. People do those things when they feel guilty and fear/avoid disapproval and/or consequences.

Perhaps a better question for your WW than "why did you do it?" would be "do you now understand and appreciate what series of attitudes & actions greased this slippery slope?"

But this I think is quite easy to say if you haven't had an A...

I wondered those exact same things to myself 10,000 times. What if the roles had been reversed? I would have talked, emailed, wrote long letters, enlisted a counselor, involved our clergy, set up an in-person "loving intervention" with family/friends, even bought a case of red spray cans at the hardware store and graffiti'd up the walls of the house...inside and out!

I have to say that if roles had been reversed and I was the BS I would have had the same thoughts oon what if the roles were reversed - I can remeber thinking as a young un: I don't understand how people have As I'll never do it - I am a good communicator and I know I'll talk problems through before I go down that slippery slope and really saying to all my BFs please talk to me, please let me know if you're not happy. I did this again with my H because I knew that he had been unfaithful in his previous engagement ( wasn't unfaithful with me or to me)


Back on the thread: For the record I did fall in love with the OM but to start with I was in love with the A. Looking back I can see how easy it is to fall in love with an A and how that moves on to falling in love with the OM. I now see that the OM has nothing that I am attracted too ( apart from maybe the conversation) and that he has several traits that now repulse me and I can not understand why I did it. ( our road to recovery involves lots o O&H and conversation).

At the end of the day and IMHO it doesn't matter - what is important is that mistakes are learnt from and everyone looks forward. Love is about looking outward in the same direction.

ST

Thanks for the post. I do firmly believe that my WW didn't go 'looking' for this. She is not the type that was looking to screw me over (but she did obviously). I think she just had poor boundaries and got carried away. And then since she is a conflict avoider had no chance of getting out. Not that she necessarily wanted to but it wasn't going to happen until I busted her or the OM dumped her.
Interesting comment - I wonder if my WW feels the same way. She still won't admit that she was in love with him. She says she had feelings, liked him, infatuated, etc, but won't say (admit?) that she was in love with him as a person. I don't know why but she won't seem to budge on it. Even despite me hearing her say it on tape. Maybe she is just afraid of my reaction if she admits it.

A couple of personal questions if you can answer - How do you reconcile the fact that you were in love with the OM but now love (I'm assuming) your H? Did you love your H during the A? Who did/do you love more? Do you think the OM will always have a place in your heart?
I agree and disagree with you here. My WW says much the same as you do - look forward and she loves me and she is choosing me now so that is all that matters. I disagree in that I think it is important to understand the A so we both can change and not repeat mistakes. Not to mention I don't want to be seen as the backup plan. I want her to be with me bc she wants to - not bc she has to.

I truly believe that that was the case with me - poor boundaries - as does my BH. I confessed to my A.



When I serioulsly confronted myself with the fact that i was having an A, I googled it to find out what i could do to help myself out of it (and found MBs). I was with BH New Years Eve with a few other couples and I was texting OM in the loo or whenever I could that evening. At the strike of Big Ben I looked around and saw the other couples loved each other and asked myself why I didn't Love H. The next day I thought about all the lovely things H had been doing in the last few months, how he had dealt so well with his anger management problems and was going out of his way to love me. My love bank suddnely started filling very rapidly just with the thoughts. I had been totally shutting him out because of OM. I read all the Mb stuff on avoiding infidelity and how to deal with it and then it all became very clear and very obvious that I did love H.

In short, for the first year of my A I did love H and to some extent OM. Serious love busting went on 4 months before the A ended and I no longer loved H - tried to leave him (although I didn't intend to set up with OM, just wanted to get out of M), but in the end chose to give it another go (I still hadn't admitted to myself that I was having an A at this point, I guess because it wasn't physical). I don't think I loved H for the last 4 months of the affair I was angry with him. It was almost over night, once I understood the whole process we had both been through, that i stopped loving OM and started to love my H again.


For the record: I know that I "chose" to have the affair ( or not to impede it's development) and I am not blaming my H.

Not sure whether you might have read any of my threads but I had a brief contact with OM and OMW last night ( caught a glimpse in supermarket). Niether I or BH feel like it has thrown us back.

Place in my heart???? That's a tricky one. Definitely in my head - like you say we need to keep the A in our minds so that we don't go there again. I think I will always remember some of our chats and him bringing me soup and choc when I was ill but I'm not sure that that is the same as keeping him in my heart. I certainly don't look back lovingly now as I type.



Hope this helps

ST

PS thanks for this too, my BH is with me as I type and I think it may be answering some of his Q's that he didn't know he had.

I would ask for advice/input from the vets here (esp. the former-WWs here who are invaluable!) about how recovery typically progresses. I know they say that it takes 2 years to fully recover and it is common for a WS to be still "fogged-up" about the A for the first 3-6 months of consistent NC with the OP. Based on your sig line, your WW should be at the point of STARTING to de-fog and should definitely be doing so by 3 months from now. If that doesn't happen, one has to wonder whether NC is truly in place or if there might be someone else--hope not! I defer to the fWWs here on MB for their expertise on that...


It sounds like we have lived parallel lives! My xWW put on a thin facade of contentment & self-confidence that veiled deep-seated insecurities, poor self-esteem, and a desperate craving for personal validation right beneath the surface. [She admitted all this to me--to my profound amazement as I knew none of it before--much later, after her girlfriends told her they noticed it]. A psychologist I read, Michelle Langley, described a common phenomenom in women who "love GETTING married but don't like the reality of BEING married". Not to say that you and I were not "neglectful" or complacent in some respects, but NO MAN can possibly be forever attentive enough to equally compete with the excitement, anticipation, buildup, pomp, ceremony, & "center-of-the-world" stuff that inherently takes place in the engagement-through-honeymoon period.

I would be a little careful in beating yourself up too much as you seemed to be suggesting in the 2nd part of your paragraph. Undoubtedly, you made mistakes and should/would have done things differently if time could be reversed. Yes, you should forthrightly admit to that, express sincere remorse, and display that you have learned to do better in the present and for the future. But....YOU DID NOT CAUSE NOR ARE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR HER AFFAIR! You own your actions and she owns hers. I'm assuming you did not bring another woman into your marriage, so don't think your failings equate to or justify hers...and certainly don't tell her they do! I wouldn't LB her or claim moral superiority, but instead lovingly & FIRMLY express that she NEEDS to come clean, tell the whole truth, and accept SOLE responsibility for what she did...no excuses! If she won't, then she is still holding onto justification and blame-shifting and won't see the A for what it really was--a selfish, depraved, and hurtful episode that can never be repeated under any circumstances.

Remember, a WS had MANY OTHER CHOICES that didn't involve adultery.



Ditto, buddy, BTDT again. I blindly trusted too--even when warned--and ended up allowing her to "cake-eat" and entrench the affair. Had I found MB back then, I would have done many things differently and not been such an enabling doormat. I probably could have broken up the A fairly early and at least done a much better Plan A/B than the wishy-washy, inconsistent, self-blaming crap that I ended up depicting. I know...


TELL HER THAT!


You are welcome. I have learned a tremendous amout here on MB and from reading books, esp. Private Lies by Dr. Frank Pittman & Not "Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. It actually helps me as well by posting here and (hopefully) helps others. I do not want to ever "get back" with my xWW anymore, but someday I would hope that I could at least get a truthful accounting & sincere apology from her...I think I deserve that at the very least. I know that won't happen until she hits rock bottom ("hardheaded" by her own admission, lol) or, since she admits to "keeping track of (me)" via the grapevine, I get serious with someone to the point of re-marriage. Obviously, I am not going to foolishly rush into anything or settle for less than "completely sure" on that score because I definitely do want the inevitable fate that awaits my xWW--a 2nd divorce from a marriage that never should have been entertained, much less entered into, in the first place.

Good luck & keep talking

[I am going to tailor this discussion to WWs--the topic of this thread--though I am sure much of what follows applies to WHs as well.]

ST & UD,

I am sure that the vast majority of waywards here did not "go looking for an affair" intentionally. Few, if any, woke up one day and said to themselves: "My H sucks. My M sucks. I want a lover. I am going to give myself emotionally and (eventually) sexually to the next guy at work who seems to be an attractive prospect." In fact, I would guess that, if they had "planned and sought" an affair, that the OM they ended up with would be at/near the BOTTOM OF THE LIST in terms of promising candidates. That just isn't how Romantic Affairs get started. [Maybe it is for philandering conquests, but most infidelity here, esp. with WWs, is of the RA-type.]

As I've detailed earlier, RAs are "crimes of opportunity" fueled by a sense of selfish entitlement, needy vulnerability, and a dropping of (previously-defended) boundaries. The OM ("who he really is" & "how good a man he is") is largely superfluous. In these circumstances, a WW would go for a Sasquatch if he met the few necessary criteria--these are: he is male, he is willing, and he gives her some wanted attention and an empathetic ear. The WW is an such an emotionally vulnerable state that she does not realize that she is "wide open to an affair" even if she hasn't technically pre-meditated it. In effect, she is "looking for an affair" without being consciously aware of it.

This lack of self-awareness is what deceives the WW into believing that the feelings generated by A/OM are "so special", "unique", and even "meant to be" (even when the OM is demonstrably a big "step-down", a "lousy catch", and a loser--often also married himself). The WW feels that she "deserves" to indulge in the attention, affirmation, and affection of this person because her H "didn't listen" to her and the OM does..."he really cares about me!" The greater her native romantic tendencies are & the more crazily inappropriate the OM is, the more addictive & stimulating the A becomes. It is a forbidden fruit phenomenom that lifts her out of her mental doldrums and is insanely stimulating, no matter how destructive it is of her values and character. She isn't "thinking" but merely "feeling".

My xWW wrote me post-D: "I wasn't looking for a relationship; I was just lonely and wanted companionship". What she said is superficially TRUE and true in her mind (there is that "fog" thing again).

I know another gal (a platonic g-friend) who had the exact same experience. Felt detached, unappreciated, needy, etc. --> some guy at the gym talked her up --> "I love him!" --> divorced her H to be with OM --> married OM ASAP --> discovered he was a loser, jobless muscle-head with 'roid rage' abuse issues --> divorced him within a year --> tried to get back with H#1 --> he couldn't forgive her A --> is now grappling with 2 divorces, single mom-hood, a wrecked family, and dating "the right way" now.

She is de-fogged by now and I asked her about OM/H#2. She confessed to me that now she realizes "the only thing we had in common is that we liked to work out at the same gym", "I was so desperate for attention/affection that it didn't matter who it was/could have been ANYONE", "I was so blindly 'in-love' that I couldn't see the consequences of what I was doing".

So insanely ridiculous...

I like your posts SDCWman. They spell things out nice and clearly and are helpul with my recovery.

Please excuse me thread jacking for a sec, but do I come across as foggy?

ST

Staytogether,

Thanks for the compliment! I have become somewhat of a "lay expert" on this topic, a title I never wanted to earn on a subject I never expected to encounter.

I read the couple of posts you have made on this thread and I do NOT sense "fogginess" in you. You seem to be taking RESPONSIBILITY & EXPLAINING yourself without making excuses or rationalizations & I commend you for that. I also congratulate you for posting and taking such an active role in recovery with your BH. Would that more WSs did just that...


In reading this again (back on the thread's original topic), I have a question for you about your comment "For the record I did fall in love with the OM but to start with I was in love with the A". Looking back with the understanding you now possess, do you think the following explains what you were trying to communicate?:

I was emotionally vulnerable, let down my boundaries, and "fell in love" with the feelings I garnered from having someone else offer me attention, validation, & kindness. It was really quite independent of who the OM was & could have been virtually anyone at the time. As I continued in the A, I began to see the OM as the source and provider of those "positive feelings" and felt "in love" with him although he isn't someone I would have normally been interested in if I had been single and emotionally stable."

Would you consider that to be a fair and accurate account of what you were describing with the benefit of hindsight? True or false?

Just wondering if I am "warm" here...

More than warm - hit the nail bang on the head. There is not a chance that if I had been emotionally stable I would have fallen in love with A or OM - he was shorter than me, not intellectually/professionally on a level with me and 17 years older than me. (No offence of course to anyone who's ideal would meet these points).
Anyone could have given me the validation, kindness etc and I would have fallen!

ST

I think much of this thread revloves around the concept of unconditional love. I imagine most BS's thought they had unconditional love from their spouse prior to the A. Granted probably within some realistic range, but for the most part, they thought the love was a constant through thick and thin. They thought that the "love" they recived from their spouse was "owned".

When confronted with the A, they still hold this paradigm. The paradigm that the WS took that unconditional love from the BS and gave it to OP. And this transfer was done due to some innate quality about OP.

When attempting recovery, they still maintain this paradigm. The BS wants the unconditional love to return back to them.

The MB concepts and what not don't fit with that. So the BS struggles to fit a square peg into a round hole by connvincing themselves that this "transfer" never occurred (i.e. the WS did not really love OP) or convincing themselves that it occurred twice.

For me, the point is there is no unconditional love. Philosophically one could argue that no one ever directly "loves" another person. Merely loves them indirectly as a function of what they provide. So with respect to unconditional love (which is what I think the BS craves) one could argue that the WS did not love OP. Unfortunately, it also implies that they did not (and will not) love the BS.

That feels like a cold way to look at things, but I think that is the way it is.

Thanks for the reply...I had a feeling that was the case. I have become quite adept at deciphering the true meanings behind such common WS fog-isms like:
"I love you, but I am not in love with you"
"I care about you, but we can't be together"
"OM is my soulmate--we are 'meant to be'..."
"I can't change my feelings; I can't help how I feel"
"We aren't right for each other, OM & I are"
"God changes things and God wants me to be happy"
and so on and so on...

You described my xWW's OM to a tee--right down to the exact age difference. Throw in married (was on his 3rd), cheating again for the 3rd time (gotta give the guy credit for consistency & predictibility!), and a history of utterly self-centered abandonement of his kids and they could be the same person! No offense, but it is astounding how often waywards affair with someone so utterly inappropriate & "unqualified" -- speaks volumes about about the WS's emotional state, foggy-lack-of-clear-judgment, and moral/ethical/social compromises, doesn't it?

Hmmm, I wonder how well marriage#4 to xWW is going to go....
:twobyfour:
:crosseyedcrazy:

I think this is a pretty insightful post. Probably describes how I feel better then I could describe it myself.

Not sure what you mean by 'it occurred twice'. Do you mean the WS transfers their love from the BS to the OP and back to the BS?

I would like to think my WW would love me for just being me rather then 'what I provide' but this is probably not realistic. Would my WW love me if I was a crack addict with no job and abused our kids? I don't she would love me much at all. Although it is strange sometimes when you see people who consistently date or M people who are basically losers. But I think that's a whole another issue of 'saving' someone or giving yourself an ego boost by being the 'better' person in the relationship.