Now I realize this is probably part wishful thinking on my part but my WW has repeatedly told me that she thinks she was more in love with the A then the OM himself. The whole attention and forbiddeness of it. She literally says stuff almost word for word from some of the materials here on MB even though I know she hasn't read it. I realize she could be totally trying to say this to make me feel better and the absolute truth is I recorded her professing her love to the OM (note for people for have trouble with mental images - actually having the real thing is not easy to get out of your head).

Just looking for a little feedback - I know either way it was an A and it really doesn't matter but I am curious to know if she is really expressing here true emotions and feelings or just telling me what I want to hear. Openness and honesty is a huge issues with her even after the A. She is very much a people pleaser and feel sometimes she tells me what I want to hear.

OK, I will answer this one from my perspective of course...

What your WW is telling you MAY be true for her in her case however... I loved the OM--for a very long time and it was him more than the A. And, I believe it was the same with him for me. He told his BS that he loved me. It is a long story but we had had 2 A's over an 18 year time period... So, for me it was the actual person--not the A... But, every case is different.

Now, I am just trying to work on being indifferent where OM is concerned.

Thanks for the response. I would imagine its not so black and white - I seriously doubt she had no feelings for the OM and it was just about the A. But I guess she means it was more about the A and the attention then who the OM was. I guess she means it could have been any OM. Yikes - does that make her sound worse? Note I was not the best at giving her attention - I had a hobby that I devoted a lot of my free time to and she resented that. OM had no hobbies and basically made my W his hobby. What a dedicated guy.

Who knows for sure, but I imagine it is a case where she was in love with her "image" of OM and that image was enhanced by the A.

OK, I am not a WW or WH nor do I play one on TV.

But my personal experience is when my FWW was having her A, and I KNEW NOTHINGK (think Schultz in Hogan's Heros), she was so distraught she was going to a psychologist/therapist trying to get out of the A, BECAUSE SHE HATED IT!!

Honest to God. She went for about 8 months!!

She told me she was going to the shrink because of issues with her father, which are still with us unfortunately, now more than ever, since her mom died and Cruella has moved in with daddy.

So of course I believed her and was sympathetic. (delete the sym..and you get what I really was!)

I have seen emails where she was begging the OM to leave her alone but he had to have his fantasy, so he kept at it (her).

And to love the A?? Meaning the romance of an illicit adulterous rutting in the mud?? Breaking your vows to God and betraying the one you married?? HMmmmm....umm, let me think about that.

They love the fantasy and endorphins saturating their brains because of the OM or OW.

So I think they are loving the OM or OW.

IMHO

kirk

Probably right. It amazing that she would complain about what the OM was doing wrong in his M (My WW was friends with the OMW - nice, huh?) but she saw nothing wrong with him. But she didn't leave me for him after the d-day so how much did she really love him?

You make some good points. Maybe my WW meant more of what you said - loving the fantasy and the feelings you get from that. And I guess as a result you are loving that OM or OW.

upsidedown

It's out of the WW handbook.

Rewrite marrital history to stop loving BH and love OM. This way the WW is able to justify her having and affair.

Then when the WW comes out of the fog she remember the real history of he marriage and faces what was their between the OM and her was false.



dawn



"What your WW is telling you MAY be true for her in her case however... I loved the OM--for a very long time and it was him more than the A. And, I believe it was the same with him for me. He told his BS that he loved me. It is a long story but we had had 2 A's over an 18 year time period... So, for me it was the actual person--not the A... But, every case is different."

You show that why there must be NC. If you didn't break NC there would of been no round two.

It also shows that you did not realize the OM used you eighteen years ago and again now.

You had nothing with the OM but an affair with immoral sex. Your ego refuses to let you see the the OM saw you as only extra curricular sex.

Who is the OM with you or his BW?

Some day you will wake up and realize that your OM as any other OM will say and do any thing to get into an OW's skirt. Yeah he loved you. He sure gae up everything he had and took you away from all of this.

UD,

No offense, but a WS's claim of "loving the affair more than loving the OP" is a distinction without a difference. It doesn't really matter whether your WW "loved him" more or less than "loved being with him" (as if there is any way to measure those 2 things independently). While any WS is affairing away, they are "loving the OP" much more than their BS and "loving being with" their OP much more than being with/true to their BS.

In an attempt to rationalize it, defend it, sanitize it, explain it, or just to understand it themselves, a WS/former-WS will say & think any number of insane things ranging from the irrelevant to the implausible to the utterly non-sensical. It really only matters what THEY ARE DOING.

If they are actively wayward, they will say anything to justify and defend it...while continuing to DO IT.

If they are still-fogged-up and newly out-of-the-affair, they will say many things to deflect their guilt and regret...until they either break NC or reach that proverbial "hard look in the mirror" point.

Usually, a WH will emphasize the physical but minimize the emotional with statements like "it was just sex...it didn't really mean anything". Usually a WW will emphasize the emotional while minimizing the physical by saying "it was love...sex had nothing to do with it". In a romantic affair, they are both lying by copping only to the elements that seem least damning to their gender-perspective. [It is more mentally palatable for a man to have sex with some bimbo and claim to "not love her" (i.e. betray his wife sexually but not emotionally) and for a woman to "fall in love" with some POSOM and claim to not lay down for him (i.e. betray her husband emotionally but not sexually). Kinda makes them both hapless and helpless "victims", doesn't it? He couldn't stop himself--he was just sexually enticed; she couldn't either--she just "followed her feelings". As if a man is a slave to his 'genitals' and a woman is a slave to her 'heart'...]

In a romantic affair (I'm excluding ONSs & philandering conquests here), you can bet that ALL WWs/WHs were "in love"/"infatuated" with their affair partners and were certainly directing 95%+ of their emotional energy toward THEM rather than toward their BS and their marriages. As much as it hurts, they just weren't thinking about "you" and didn't really care at the time, whether or not they choose to admit and acknowledge that sad fact later on. Sorry...BTDT

The Road

Thank you for your candor... I was speaking in terms of the past--not present. I do see and understand your points though and you are correct.

I no longer feel the way as I stated in my post, I was just trying to answer the question honestly.

You are absolutely correct with the NC but I did not know that at the time. I had not found MB 18 years ago or any time during that time period. I have grown alot and my eyes have been opened.

So, from here on out, there will be NC with OM. The damage is done and he will carry on as so will I--with no A.

I am improving and growing--but, thanks for your opinion.

UpsideDown...

Your FWW is likely still in the phase of just trying to figure out what's what...She is confused and conflicted and really can't answer your questions for you yet, because she can't truly answer them for herself yet...It's a long process...

The fact is, the addiction IS to the OM...The "feelings" that she had for him were real (you know, as in, she really did "feel" them), however, they did not exist in a situation that was reality...You know, everyday life...There were no bills to pay, no mortgage, no sick children, no "we're out of toilet paper, can you run out and get some?" situations, no morning breath, no snoring, NOTHING ORDINARY OR MUNDANE...Put that "relationship" into the confines of real life and those rush type "feelings" would eventually wane...in fact, real quick like...

Also, "love" is a verb...True love doesn't seek to harm, and of course, adultery harms every person in it's vicinity...So it was NOT love...

What your wife (and you) must eventually come to grips with is that OM will ALWAYS remain a threat to your marriage...That she will remain forever vulnerable to him and that is why NC for life is a MUST...The acceptance of this is critical...The simple fact is that OM was able to meet some of her top ENs for her, and since he was allowed to, there will always be a lovebank acct. for him with your wife...NOW, as long as NC is maintained, that account will remain dormant and you'll have no worries, but NC is a MUST...Please don't take this to mean that your wife will forever "pine" for the OM, because that is not the case...Just like a recovering alcoholic does not sit around pining for a drink all the time...BUT what they do know is that if they were to go hang out in bars long enough, eventually their will would break down and their brain would rationalize away all of the past pain that alcohol caused them (and others) and they would end up drinking again...For that reason they remain "NC" with alcohol...

Hopefully something I've said makes some sense to you and is helpful in some way or another...

Mrs. W

What you wrote is the truth. It really doesn't matter, either way she was having an A. For some reason I seem to torture myself with this distinctions like it really makes a difference or makes what she did not as bad. Am I trying to make up excuses for her? Or make it not as bad for my myself so I can still love her. Not sure. Probably
I think this is very true. Especially the last part. I don't think she really understands why she did it. She has alot of I don't knows. And mainly that she felt lonely and craved the attention of the OM.
Not the case here. She definly wants to work things out with me. I think I'm the one who is having more trouble - can't seem to get over certain things she did and said.
I think she is getting there but not all the way.
I think I'm definitely in the minority here as a BH but the emotional aspect of the A is what is troubling me more. After all neither one of us were virgins when we M. Sex is very important and intimate but lasts for a few minutes (or hours if I want to pretend) every few days or so. What about the rest of the time? I find it very troubling that my WW could 'fall in love' so easily with the OM in such a short time when he really didn't anything for her except talk to her when she was lonely. What does that say about my WW? Not sure I really like the answer.
Interesting about the infatuated comment - she uses the same word to describe the A. Not love, but infatuated like a 12 year old girl. More distinctions when it doesn't really matter I guess. And the last sentence is what hurts the most - she really wasn't thinking about me much and the phone bills back it up. Although she claims she still loved me but just couldn't get the attention she needed from me.

Thanks for the post. Sometimes I think BS almost get a kind of 'fog' about the A. Start spinning the facts to make it fit what you want to make yourself feel better.

UD,

It is not discussed nearly as much around here as the "wayward fog", but there definitely is a "betrayed fog" as well. It results from the hurt, anger, betrayal, and utter disbelief before discovery ('my spouse would NEVER do something like that') and afterwards (so many unanswered questions about 'why?' and a lack of logicallly satisfying explanantions). The BS's fog involves denial, shock, and utter bewilderment as he/she gropes with not wanting to face the possibility, the emotional rape of discovery, and the desperate search for rational 'closure' in that order.



From what I gather, your fWW is still too fogged-up to alleviate these nagging questions for you. She SHOULD be (and hopefully will come to this point) telling you the WHOLE TRUTH with remorse, humility, and repentance. She should be saying "I have no excuses or justifications..." and fall on the sword voluntarily. Until she does that, I don't think you 2 can truly start recovering.


This is the "romantic affair starter-kit" for virtually every WW.

She feels "disconnected" in her M (unvalued, unappreciated, neglected, etc.) --> she doesn't know to productively communicate this to her H and begins to feel that "he doesn't care anyway" (truth is...he doesn't even know!) --> she is now needy and desperate for validation and "love" --> guy at work innocently or opportunistically gives her positive attention (compliments, listening ear, empathy, etc.) --> she takes it in like parched ground does the rain --> wants more --> gets more --> "I'm in love with OM and I should be with him...he understands me!"

Almost all BHs have heard this. My xWW wrote me post-D: "I wasn't looking for a relationship. I was just lonely, we were talking as friends, and it happenned." BTDT. To them, it is "unique" and "special" when in fact there is nothing unique or special about it.


You are in a better position than many of your cohorts, male and female, here on MB...assuming you do still want to save and renew your M. Do you? No guilt here, no one would blame you one bit if you didn't. Your WW released you morally from your vows and commitment by having an affair. Anything you offer her is a GIFT on your part at this point and she needs to APPRECIATE it as such if she is indeed sincere.


The rationalizations/excuses I posted were FROM THE WS's PERSPECTIVE...straight out of "Private Lies" by Dr. Frank Pittman. He didn't list any general findings from his years of experience as to whether BHs or BWs find the emotional or physical aspects of their spouses infidelity usually more troubling, so I assume that is a trendless, gender-neutral, and moot point.


I am afraid that it says (or said) some very unflattering and dishonorable things about your WW and, by extension, all WSs (mine included) who behave similarly. It says, for example:

Poor communication & relationship skills
A tendency toward grudge-holding and resentment
Disloyalty & willingness to sell-out what they have and believe in
Unrealistic views of what "love" & "feelings" really are
Poor impulse-control & defense of values, standards, and boundaries
Lack of introspection, procilivity for blaming all on others
Capable of extremely selfish and un-empathetic behavior
Fragile self-esteem that needs the reinforcement of others, even outside the M
Illogical, hurtful, and utimately self-destructive decision-making

Some elements might be dismissed under the guise of "temporary insanity", but not the whole package. Romantic waywards have, under the "right circumstances", a HOLE IN THEIR CHARACTER. Of course, none of us are perfect and all of us are CAPABLE of an affair as Dr. Harley says. But some people DO IT and some DO NOT -- even under similar conditions. ALL waywards have/had OTHER CHOICES...the least of which would be to get a D to be on their own if their marriage was truly so intolerable and unfulfilling. Some people it seems can become so needy and desperate for validation that they will repudiate their integrity to acquire it from an inappropriate source rather than find satisfaction from within themselves and via personal accomplishment.

I would be very wary of taking a WS back who hasn't demonstrated some self-understanding and personal-growth-in-progress via reading, counseling, prayer, etc. Otherwise, they really haven't learned anything. You "trusted them" once on blind faith and they failed miserably...


My WW actually said "it's all about ME right now!" ... as though it would have been fine if I quit my job, lost the house, and abandoned my commitments to indulge some 6 month fantasy of being a Jimmy Buffet-like cabana boy in Fiji.

No, sadly, your WW wasn't thinking about you one bit and didn't give a **** during that time. She would NEVER have wanted you to do to her as she did to you. She had plenty of other options and chose the most damaging, hurtful, expedient, and unproductive one -- no matter what mistakes you made in your marriage prior, what does that say about her???

She needs to answer that to you (for recovery) and for herself irregardless...

does it really matter in the long run?

If you want a renewed & improved marriage with a new-and-better husband and a new-and-better wife, then YES.

If you just want a (likely) false & fleeting recovery with a formwer-wayward who hasn't learned anything and still harbors resentful justification toward you for their affair, then NO.

I think I'm realizing this is true about her. I admit it is really frustrating that she can't seem to answer simple questions like "why did you do it"? In the beginning I thought she just didn't want to answer but lately I'm thinking I'm not sure she really knows. I mean at a EN level for reasons why she had the A she says I wasn't paying attention to her and stuff like that - and she is right. But beyond that - actually why did she do it and not come to me - she hasn't come up with anything really solid.
I beginning to accept this as true. And I think she as well. I think when she says she was in love with A she means the whole fantasy of it - including him. Kind of ironic that she is the one always telling me it wasn't real. It was not real life and that's what made it so appealing to her.
My WW has learned this the hard way. Lost a lot of 'toxic' friends over it. She I think is even beginning to see it - for example she did say that if the OM cared so much about her then he wouldn't have pursued the A bc of the harm it could cause. Not that she is excusing herself - she has taken blame but at least she is no longer thinks he is a good guy.
This last point I think is a good one. Especially since my WW had one relapse as it is. I think NC for life is very important. Although it does make me sad that despite all the happened and what she could lose, that my WW could still potentially not do the right thing. What is wrong with her that she would risk everything for a loser? That part I can't accept. And unfortunately I think my WW has not really accepted this last point as well. She believes that she will never have anything to do with the OM again bc she doesn't want to. I would obviously like to believe her but I have my doubts.

It was very helpful overall. Thanks for the post.

Upside,

""For some reason I seem to torture myself with this distinctions""

All BS's find many many ways of torturing ourselves with our mental masturbation and obsessiveness. It is all part of the processing process. We must wrap our minds around it any way we can to endure.

kirk

Yeah it seems to be a common theme with BS's. Sign me up for those MIB nuerolyzers. Set to about 2 years ago and zap away.

Every BS desperately wants to know "why?" as though there is some rational, logical explanation that will assuage the anguish and cause it all "to make sense". Unfortunately, no such magic elixir answer exists or ever will exist. The closest thing to an "explanation" is that your WW:

Grew to feel disconnected from you in her marriage
Blamed you (exclusively or primarily) for that
Chose to nuture and harbor resentment toward you and self-entitlement for herself
Devalued you & your M to the point that she became emotionally/romantically vulnerable to outside person(s)
Failed to effectively communicate any of this to you (where it belonged), & ultimately...
Indulged in satisfying her desire for validation when an opportunity arose, casting aside her values & vows to the contrary in the process

Even this surface description doesn't do it justice because she undoubtedly lied, denied, & concealed it to you and defended & rationalized it ad nauseum to herself (and anyone else that would listen) along the way. People don't hide, whitewash, or feel the need to justify that which they are PROUD OF and HONORED BY. People do those things when they feel guilty and fear/avoid disapproval and/or consequences.

Perhaps a better question for your WW than "why did you do it?" would be "do you now understand and appreciate what series of attitudes & actions greased this slippery slope?"



I wondered those exact same things to myself 10,000 times. What if the roles had been reversed? I would have talked, emailed, wrote long letters, enlisted a counselor, involved our clergy, set up an in-person "loving intervention" with family/friends, even bought a case of red spray cans at the hardware store and graffiti'd up the walls of the house...inside and out!

I think it just comes down to whether or not someone is truly committed to their vows (in letter and spirit), not just devoted "when it feels right" to be so. Some people just have very strong romantic tendencies and are more easily swayed by "feelings"...believing that emotions justify, lead, and validate actions, rather than the other way around. They place more emphasis on "feeling better" than they do on "doing better".



I would not blindly believe her if I were you. After all, she has violated that trust twice and she still seems to be clinging to "feelings" there. I.e. she won't contact OM "again bc she doesn't WANT to" (emphasis mine). Well, what if she "wants to" later at some point for whatever reason/motivation? She should never again contact OM because she KNOWS, AGREES, & COMPLETELY ACCEPTS that she shouldn't, not because she simply "doesn't want to" right now.

I really hope you guys can get through this, but it sounds like she is not "there yet" and you are right to still be wary...God Bless

This is great advice. I think I'm moving in this direction. Albeit very slowly and with setbacks when I just go to her and ask why over and over again. Realize LB but hard to stop sometimes. Also trying to get my WW on board with this. As opposed to just saying she needs more attention from me but saying in addition to that she can't be friends with other guys which then prevent me from giving attention to her.



I think this is true. I'm finding out my WW needs more attention then I ever realized and I think she would have taken it from anybody willing to give it to her. I think both my W and myself had issues with boundaries. We really did know what they were. Sounds stupid but I should have stopped some of the stuff that was going on before it led to the A. I have not be perfect in our M either with respect to boundaries. So I don't want to come off and thinking I'm better then my W. Bc in reality I'm not. She just took to another level that I thought was not in her to do to something like that to me.




The NC is still an issue. Recenlty we had indirect contact through a 3rd party about the OM. Sucks. Just sets us back. She didn't say she doesn't want to contact him just now - but ever. She actually said she hates him. But I realize how fast that can change. So EP will have to be place. Sucks though having to think there is someone out there that your WW can't resist. Makes me feel like our M is not really that strong.

No I don't think I will every blindly trust her again. I mean in the past I blindly trusted her to hang out with this guy during the day repeatedly. I actually knew they were hanging out sometimes. Not all the time but sometimes. It was the perfect cover for her. All she had to do was lie about the S which lasted all of 5 min and then she could tell the truth and say 'oh yeah' I went to the park with so and so. I feel like I almost 'enabled' the A. How stupid was I?

I don't think she is 'quite there' yet either. I think she had done a lot of things right - namely not going with him and dedicating hereslef to our M. But I don't think she is 100% on aboard with the R for her, me, and us. She gets depressed sometimes bc I still bring it up. She wants to be in the present and not look back. A common them among WS and understanbly so but I feel like if we don't really figure out what happened with this A then we will probably be back in the same place 5, 10, 20 years from now. And honstely I can't go trough this again.

Thanks for your posts BTW. Was reading some of your story and give you a lot of credit for posting on here and trying to help other people out considering your own situation. A lot of BS in your situation seem to become very bitter and cynical towards the chances for other M recovering. More power to you.