Hi SC,

I haven't commented on your thread in few months, no other reason then I just have been to busy to be on any threads of late.

In all my posts I just wanted you to be able to explain in your words what bothers you about when he flirts/is friendly/talks to other women, what exactly it does to you and what can be done to fix this so you are headed in the right direction.
To me, maybe not to everyone, but words are so hard for me to muster up when they represent my feelings, its so very very hard, but just like learning a language, playing a sport or an instrument, its about practice, very few are prodigies.
FH did hit the nail on the head, like so many here, he isn't a mind reader, and the advice given was phenominal in many aspects.
Even if you divorce or stay married, the advice here will do you good for future relationships.
One thing I got is that your H is leaving many things unanswered for you, he tells you its to painful for you! what? no wrong, its to painful for him, its to much for HIM, to assume you can't handle truth is malicious. There are many wrongs going on here, it isn't just the "flirting with women" its not going to counseling cause he dosen't need it, its the not talking about his history because its personal, its the not sharing important aspects of his A with you, its the not listening to hidden meanings and asking proper questions, etc... the list seems to go on for me according to me listening to you.
one important aspect of all of this, is YOU are not YOU, you seem to be gone, you have lost yourself in his stuff, you may be addicted to his stuff, come back to you, be you, find you, be the person you are, take him out of the equation for awhile, collect you, your thoughts, go to counseling.
I must admit I have not read the last few pages, I just glanced, so I may have missed where your at in the marriage, but even with that you will need to find you to be happy, and you are responsible for your happiness, and don't take blame where blame isn't due.

I think every BS hear this, "I don't remember".

I think it is more like I don't want to remember and I don't want to deal with this. Let's pretend it never happened.

This sounds like my H to a T.

The freeloaders agreement.

DF,

He has known of my feelings about his "friendly vs flirty" for many years not just post A.

And what bothers me is that i feel like he is flirting with other women while i am standing right there and it is disrespectful to me.

And yes we do have many issues to deal with besides this one.

More:

"These are the beliefs that support the Renter's agreement:

1. Romantic relationships require a certain amount of give and take, but it's only right for me if what I take is worth what I give. Someone who is right for me today can be wrong for me tomorrow. The person may be what I need in one stage of my life but not what I need in another, so my romantic relationships should be considered temporary. If what I take isn't worth what I give, either my partner should give me more, or I should end the relationship to find someone who will give me what I need.

2. If I am in a romantic relationship with someone who criticizes me, it does not necessarily mean that my partner is wrong for me if I can make the necessary changes. But my change should be made only if what I get from my partner is worth the effort.

3. If I am in a romantic relationship and my partner expects me to sacrifice my own happiness to meet my partner's needs in return for what my partner has done for me, that's a reasonable expectation. And if I feel I am getting less that I deserve, it's reasonable for me to expect my partner to sacrifice some happiness for my fulfillment."

"These are the beliefs that support the buyer's agreement:

1. We are in this romantic relationship for life, so our decisions must make both of us happy and fulfilled. We will provide each other consistent and effective care to make our relationship romantic and successful. When either of us finds our important emotional needs changing, we will change our habits and lifestyle to accomodate each other so that our relationship can be fulfilling to both of us throughout life.

2. If either of us is critical of the other, it indicates that an adjustment of habits and lifestyle is required until the change meets the standards set by the critic. If one of us has a problem with some aspect of the relationship, we will work together to find a solution that we can both permanently adopt.

3. The solution to every problem in our romantic relationship should be a long-term solution that satisfies both of us. Shortterm sacrifice of one partner may be inevitable to create new habits or lifestyle changes to accomodate the other, but in the end, unless both of us are happy with the change, it cannot be considered an adequate solution. So long term sacrifice should not be tolerated by either of us. The goal of our relationship is for both of us to be happy and fulfilled with every aspect of the relationship. As such, each of us must do everything with the other partner's interests and feelings in mind."

He is definitely a freeloader!!!!!

And maybe....maybe...maybe taking some early steps to maybe be a renter.

I would say in the last three weeks he has taken a few steps towards being a renter.

SC,
are you still working on the M? Have you decided that you both want to?

DF,

I also wanted to comment on your asking about "me" in all of this.


I have been asked that by others here on MB and by friends and family and the truth is, what gives me the greatest joy in my life is being a wife and a mother. I do not feel like i need anything else.

We must have been posting at the same time.

I am still working on the M although i have given him a deadline of June 1 to make me feel "safe" again or else i am gone.

My H has never wanted the M to end since he ended the A. However he has just in the last three weeks started taking "actions" for that to happen.

So i am kind of in limbo, I am still very much a part of our M and i still very much want to remain married, but i will not remain unless he puts more EPs in place and starts treating me the way i should have been treated all along.

SC, yeah we are on the same wave-length this morning huh?

I truly believe that I have been and maybe could be in the same place as you, at the risk of making the longest post you have ever seen, I too got to the point where I waved a hand and said thats it! I did move out, I was getting a divorce, no other way around it, no games, I was serious, he knew that, I came back, we have been in MC, I have learned alot, (and many A's many years ago were the reason) I know, been there.

One thing I put my mind to was that no one was going to steal my joy, I was going to be happy, that is my responsibility, if I allow H to take my happiness then I am allowing myself to take and be part of H's stuff, the stuff HE needs to fix, if I deal with my own and be happy then I am happy, its a decision, even when I lived without H, I still had to be happy, the misery will follow, trust me on that one.
I went to C on my own for a long time, if he won't go then you go.

What made you come back? And if you are possibly still feeling this way are you planning on staying?

And i see your point about MY happiness not being tied to HIS crap. And i am not miserable all of the time, i do not walk around with a frown on my face. I am quite happy in all other aspects of my life.

I have a fulfilling job that i am good at, i have three wonderful children who are for the most part pretty good kids (right at the moment i could choke my DS :RollieEyes: but that is beside the point). My M doesn't suck all the time and most days i am happy with my H even.

The problem is that i really want my M to work, i love my H with all my heart. Pre-A i just went on about things even if they bothered me, i would tell him they bothered me but i did not make him take "actions" to stop the things that bothered me and that is my fault.

Since the A i am no longer willing to do that and i guess my H does not understand that because for 23 years or so i did not force the issue and now i am.

I think he is learning but it is taking him a lot longer than i would like and it is sad that i had to threaten (and it is not a threat i will follow through if he does not continue to show me "actions") to leave to get him to start those "actions".

SC,
Hope you don't mind my intrusion. I've read bits and pieces here and have found this thread to be helpful. Thank you.
I can relate to some of your concerns.

The other night H and I were 'discussing' IB's, one of his in particular that had just occurred. It got a little heated, and I finally finished with " I will not settle for the marriage that we had before, that includes your IB's and SD's"
Then I left the room before I got entangled into a ping pong match convo.

Since we are still new to the MB tools, I don't think this was DJ'd, I hope not.
It seemed to help him understand that I felt strongly about a new M, without being critical of him personally. I hadn't ever said anything like that before, but it felt good. I seem to be convincing myself that I do deserve the best marriage.

Take care.

SC,
I went back because he was making changes, not just talking, he was putting action, and action speak louder then words, I always knew I loved him and wanted nothing more then a happy marriage.
I decided if I wanted things to change I needed to make them change also. I would love for H to come up with things on his own, but that would be mind reading, and even when I do say what I want he STILL dosen't really listen, I have to make him listen, and like you its been 20 some years of not saying what I needed, so now I am a voice, I have a voice, and old habits die hard, H is working hard to put things back to what they were, it was easier on him when I didn't have a voice, but H likes the M much better now, but I do things that make me feel good, and look good, I take care of me, and make me happy, and I make my life easier by not getting addicted to HIS stuff.
Am I making any sense? I know what I want to say but sometimes it dosen't translate exactly the way I want it.

you got it! thats what I have said, I will not go back! that was not a good place and not a good marriage, not what I wanted a marriage to look like, but I really didn't know what a good marriage looked like, so that is something figure out, to have a goal, a mindset and work toward it not away from it.

LOL, I understand everything you have said and relate to it, all of it. Actually it really just summed up my 20 yrs. of M. I'm sure many others can relate too.

You have to get it in your head, you will not settle for less, you will not settle for less.
It's empowering, and once that starts, you just refuse to go backwards.

Take care.

Not an intrusion at all. You are welcome any time. I am not sure how my crazy life can help anyone but i am glad it is of help to you.

I do not think it was a DJ and i agree with both you and DF that we should NOT settle for less than we have deserved all along.

Our spouses are just not used to us standing up for ourselves. Although it may be a good thing, it may be they needed us to do it all along and we chose not to i dunno.....

I think it was on JKs thread that TJD said sacrificing is kind of like lying to your spouse and i had never really thought of it that way but he is right.

So just drop by any time and talk about your stuff or my stuff or whatever stuff .

I am glad that he started taking ACTION so you could keep your amrriage intact. How long were you gone and how long have you been back?

Yes you made perfect sense. And i am doing things for myself and i do have a voice that i have not had for probably the whole marriage. It is not that i did not say anything pre-A, it is that i did not follow through with consequences pre-A.

My H is learning that i am no longer going to be like that. I actually think he might even like it although he has not said that it sometimes comes through when he FINALLY gets something i have been trying to get across to him, like the friendly vs flirty.

A little more on the topic of POJA, how it works, and when it should be applied. And how do you get a freeloader to become a renter and then a buyer? It is the POJA.

More from the book:

"Your most important tool for doing this is the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your partner. By following this rule, you will begin to think of yourselves as a bonded unit instead of two disinterested individuals."

"Your giver and taker tempt you to sacrifice and expect sacrifice from each other, yet sacrificing jeopardizes the health of your relationship. So you need a rule to protect you from the instinctive yet destructive compromises your giver and taker urge you to make. And the POJA is that rule."

"The POJA prevents either of you from making unilateral decisions about anything, so you must discuss every decision you make before action can be taken. Once the question "How do you feel about what I would like to do?" is asked, if the reaction is not enthusiastic, you have the choice of either abandoning the entire idea or trying to discover alternative ways of making it possible. And that's where negotiation begins. With practice, you can both become experts at getting what you need in ways that create a mutual and enthusiastic agreement."