I may be on ignore from what I can tell but I'm going to reply anyway.

BH's behavior and thoughts are typical, L4. He is cynical because the world as he knew it pre-Dday is destroyed in his eyes. H refuses to go to church or seek counseling. Asking him to trust or believe you takes a leap of faith and he's not ready to yet, maybe never will be. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but as a BS I don't think the thinking amongst BSs varies that much. Have you taken a look at the thread in the Recovery Forum called "How have you changed after Dday?" (or something like that)? At some point I do hope H reaches out to you and allows you to help him. He's battling with his own mind, trying to reconcile the betrayal as best he can...and he can't escape.

Prayers to you.

Absolutely not!

Thank you very much BR. I feel that what you say about H is likely true. I too, hope H reaches out to me. Or to someone, at least. So hard wanting to help, trying to help, yet feeling like I can't. I'm cowgirling up, though, and giving it my best shot. Come heck, highwater, or hippos. (Right, Mr. Flint?)

I'll look for that post D-day thread. I was following it a while ago and should pick it back up. I appreciate the suggestion.

I must go take my kids to Fred Meyer now for their "shopping trip" with their allowance, or I'm going to have monsters running around me in a moment. Make that in seconds...

3...

2...

1...

Ahhhhhhhh! C-ya!

Way too much reading to catch up on. Posts should be limited to 100 words.

L4,
I can't use quotes to explain my thoughts b/c there are too many in the last 4 pages.
I will just ramble randomly and hope that you can connect the dots.

You do not accept your H's DJ's. Not this long past D-Day. There is no balance in allowing LB's and not wanting to tick H off by addressing them. You do not deserve them, period. This sitch with you and H is playing out like FWW Plan Aing BH. No one would encourage a BS to be a doormat in Plan A.

Mr. L4 isn't only hurting but he sounds full of resentment, it comes thru with what he says, and his IB's.
Which kind of resentment only you know, since you know your history together the best. Whether it is from him feeling short-changed for always giving in, or from feeling hurt from your previous IB's/SD's. I'm leaning towards the last one. And yes, it is a chicken/egg question. Your LB's had to start somewhere too, right?

Bottom line is that he needs to be on board with recovery. He needs to recognize his resentment, accept the behaviour it created (LB's) and then ditch it. You can't work on the hurt if you still have resentment. And you can't ditch the resentment if you don't recognize it. Viscous circle.
It's too bad the Pastor can't just 'drop by' sometime when you and the kiddies are out ???

L4, you have taken full responsibility for your poor choices, have done all the leg work for repairing the marriage, and have given so much energy into making yourself a better person in hopes to help Mr. L4. You have genuine remorse, it has shown in your posts and in your efforts.
What more do you want from yourself ? Let it go, forgive yourself if that is what you need. You seem to want to hold onto the guilt, and the guilt makes you think of the FOM. Not letting go is not working. It doesn't mean forgetting this ever happened, since memories can keep us in tact, but it doesn't make you a better person to hold onto that guilt.

It would be so beneficial for you both to do the MB weekend. I read somewhere where someone suggested the audio CD's, a great start.

I thought you sounded like you were getting frustrated near the end of what I was reading. I'm sure you are. As I was reading your accounts of conversations I thought this: you aren't going to win any of these, it's like a pissing contest. Don't let yourself get dragged into these sort of things.

You have such great people posting to you, because they care. I love reading their words of wisdom.

Have patience, we are all so early into this whole thing called 'recovery'

Take care.

L4, you are an amazing woman. Your ability for honest introspection and your desire to grow and heal and change are humbling.

I was reading through your recounting of the exchanges Tues and Weds evenings, when your H dissed your sister and griped about the neighbor's landscaping. My H can be a real pain in the butt that way, too - usually when his arthritis is hurting him so bad that he just feels plain old irritable about everything. I could comment on how nice the sun was shining and he'd pick a fight.

In situations like that, it helps if I derail the antagonistic stance by agreeing with him and turn it into something to laugh about. I don't get goaded into a fight. The sister thing is a big tough to deflect because it hits family and that's personal but the landscaping one is darned easy.

“Great. Now in 5 years those trees will block our view.”

"Those selfish [censored]! And us without a chainsaw. The nerve of some people."

The DJs are personal. That's a real dilemma. But don't let everything be personal.

L4,

Can you tell I had the day off work today? Anyway. Please think about the fact that your H is afraid that he doesn't know you at all and doesn't think he can ever tell when you are lying to him. He told you this and I am sure you can see how scared that must make him. I can not empathize with him on this one because my WW was a terrible liar and very poor at sneaking around as well.

If you can take the DJ's etc, it might be worth trying to find out how you can help him get his footing on this. Best of luck

L4,

Our sitch's have a lot in common. That is why I have continued to read your thread. I, too, had a pre-M A and even worse, I had two ONS along with the final A where DD was Oct.2007. My H had SO much to try to recover from and still is I might add.

He also told me I rocked his world, he didn't know who I was, he doesn't know now if he would have married me if he had known about the A, and he is angry that he didn't get a chance to decide if he would marry me.

My marriage to him has been one of countless DJ's, AO's, lack of attention, etc. No excuse for me to do what I did, however.

It has been 4 months for you since your DD and that is such a short time. After our DD, months went by where my H expressed his hurt,shock, questions, and AO's. I did bear the AO's because I felt that was what I needed to do to show my remorse and shame, even more than a year past DD. But then I realized we can't move forward in this manner. That's when I set my boundaries of not taking the AO's anymore.

My H has not forgiven me, don't know if he ever will. And the trust will be very hard to get back. But I do all that he needs to help to heal. He knows where I am and what I am doing, I make no plans until it is discussed between us, and I don't do anything that will make my H uncomfortable, no IB.

It is a shame your H won't get on board with MB. Maybe he will at sometime. My H was the one that found MB and made couseling with SH an absolute must if we were to go into R.

You have been given excellent advice ( advice I take to heart also ) but I think you definitely should allow no more AO's and LB. I think you have done so much towards your R in 4 months, way ahead of where I was at 4 months. It took me along time to realize the devastation I caused and what I needed to do.

So, hang in there. My H and I weren't in very good shape at 4 months but we are in better shape now. Still recovering and I believe you will be, too.

Good morning L4.


One hard lesson I learned through all of this was that trying to convince my DH of my thoughts, feelings, etc is pointless. He is going to believe what he wants to believe for whatever reasons. Now that doesn't mean shutting down and not sharing. What it means is share but without expectations or a desired result.

Once I was in IC and started unraveling all the ins and outs that made up me, I became more comfortable sharing my issues with my DH. Well, comfortable isn't the right word, but I so wanted true intimacy with my DH and sharing this with him, to me, was a way of being intimate with him...allowing myself to be vulnerable with him. These were negative things I thought of myself and tried my very best to hide from the world because...well, because I just knew if people knew that of me I would come up lacking in their eyes. I was an excellent actress. People, especially the people closest to me, had no idea these were my thoughts. And guess what, my DH didn't believe me when I shared with him.

Talking about going over like a lead balloon! And boy did it infuriate me that he didn't believe me. I mean, these were my thoughts, MINE! How in the world could he not believe me. I could understand him not wanting to believe these thoughts if they were about him, but they weren't. He even mocked me about them later on.

But here's the thing...it's not my job to convince him that my beliefs and thoughts are true. My responsibility, IMO, is to share them with him and show him that I am becoming a better person because/inspite of them. If I focus on convincing him of my truth, then I'm wasting a lot of precious time in my healing and his.

If you get the chance, read some of LovingAnyways' posts. She really helped me start focusing on me and what I could control. And guess what...I can only control me.

And please, please remember, you are early on here. I'm sure you are sick of hearing that too, but for 3 - 4 months out...you are doing great. Remember, it took me 2 years before I could respectfully say stop to my DH and his comments. I've heard many people say that this is a marathon, not a sprint. Keep moving forward...don't worry about how fast.

Just wanna emphasize this

Its slow-- like hair growin' L4. I remember having desperate "this is never gonna change" "I don't know how to do this" "I can't do this forever" posts too. It takes TIME. Just TIME. And I felt like I was gonna go crazy, insane, like I couldn't do it anymore... I cried myself to sleep... I was a human disaster. It will just take time. Give it a year, and re-evaluate. Slowly, you'll get stronger, instate your boundaries better, etc etc. You stay on this same path you're on now, and I bet that you'll be tellin' someone else about hair growing in a year on this board like I am now

You're honestly doing FINE.

Oh, and I noticed that your thread spawned another one on GQII, with the whole religious debate thing. I don't really want to fight about religion or get into semantics... but, I will say this from my own experience.

I am a christian, my H is too. BUT, if I tried to pull out the christian stuff like Jim has suggested, that made my H shut down. Totally. In fact, he once SCREAMED at me that he hated my "holier than thou" attitude, and that "maybe I could do it that way, but he couldn't". While that way of processing things may work for some people-- it might not for others. Even if they are Christians. So-- my VHO on that is to tread lightly. If you think that H will be amenable to that approach, go at it, full steam! And I'm sure Jim will have wonderful suggestions there. But, I did try that approach and it just seemed to anger my H MORE, push him away more, and make him think that I was making myself out to be "better" than him because I was following God and he was still struggling with processing. Be careful. And I'm not discounting Jim's approach of christianity... please don't take it that way Jim. I just see some validity in 6yearsleft's post, even from a christian view point.

If you think it will work with your H though, full steam ahead, and I do think it is a wonderful approach that can lead to full healing and a full life and marriage. But it is sort of like how you are not supposed to "preach" MB to someone that's not onboard... that's a LB. Well, I think that preaching religion to someone that isn't processing the infidelity thru God can also be a LB. Even if they are a christian.

Have a great weekend L4. What are your plans? Any time for H and you this weekend?

E.

Thank you, EVERYONE, for your words. They give direction and strength. THANK YOU!

I can't pull the Christian card with my H either, E. He cannot understand how I -- a person raised in the church who believes in God, who got him to go to church again, who is involved in church committees, who says prayers with her children and to herself every night -- would do this. I am the last person who can tell him what to do with this in regards to his relationship with Jesus and God. I do my thing and do my best to support his. Mark, you, Jim, and several others have been very helpful to me in trying to reconcile what I did within the scope of my beliefs and hopefully with time, H will too. He's been reading The Bible a lot so I see that as a good thing.

H took the day off and is with the kids having lunch with his Mom. I have a cooking party at my cousin's for dinner, then later H and I are going to hear a friend's band play. Gma & Gpa have the kids overnight so we'll get a completely kid-free evening and tomorrow morning. Maybe Valentine's Day all over again??? We do have some whipped cream and dribble-ables still in the fridge and now that our heater is working... Hmmmm... A woman can wish, right?

Tomorrow afternoon H heads to hometown to hang with brothers until Sunday. DS, DD, and I are going to my nephew's concert, eat out somewhere, do movie night with kidlettes, church Sunday, and who knows what else. Maybe check in to MB and grow some hair...

What are you doing?

In fact, working out this morning, this song came on my iPod. Maybe I play it in the car on the way home tonight.

"All Night" by Def Leppard

Let's just say there is no innuendo.

If you want to read the lyrics, go here. It ain't G-rated.

Shoot! I gotta go shave!

Before I go make myself all purdy, TH, thanks for being here. And I love this:

Wish I had your wit. I'll work on it.

Tonight hubby has a few of his buddies coming over to play cards. Not too thrilling for me... usually I'll play for a bit until the testosterone gets to me, then I'll retreat upstairs and watch TV or something until they are done. We already discussed that the guys will be gone by midnight and hubby will clean up ensuing mess himself (I'll probably help anyways, just to be nice tho).

Tomorrow hubby is helping a good friend of ours move in the morning... and I am meeting a friend of mine for lunch. We don't have any plans for tomorrow other than that... but I lost a bet earlier this week with him (about our coffee maker, ha!), so I owe him dinner and a movie, so maybe I'll offer that up for Saturday evening.

Sunday afternoon we are going to a winery with another couple we are friends with to go wine tasting. Hubby and I have never been there, so it should be fun (the other couple has been there tho, and said it is really nice).

Nothing too exciting.

We are actually leaving Thursday of this coming week for our 10 day trip (THAT HUBBY PLANNED ALL ON HIS OWN!) to Colorado... checking out the area (I'm finishing up my PhD, and once I'm done we are moving out of the area... haven't decided where yet, but CO is an option we are considering...)... and doing some sight seeing, and staying in a resort for a few days. Should be fun! But this weekend will be tame, and probably involve doing a lot of laundry to get ready and packing.

And NEVER EVER in a MILLION years would I think a year ago that this year, hubby would be planning a vacation for us, planning a wonderful valentine's day for us... and we would only have 1.5 melt downs since the new year (one major melt down, and one minor one. They used to be several a week. Now only 1.5 in almost 3 months! Whoa!)

You'll get here L4! I'm pullin' for you!

And a weekend without the kids sounds great. That is JUST what you and H need right now. Ramp it up V-day style again tonight! I'll keep you in my thoughts!

Maybe buy some massage oil and offer to give him a full body, naked massage?

Start on his back... rub the entire back of his body down... then have him flip over... start rubbing the front... I'm sure you get the idea from there...

Have a great weekend L4!

E.

Hi Eeyoree,

Just wanted to make a couple of quick comments that are not directed at any specific person posting...

One, please remember that Looking4's H is showing MORE AND MORE independent behaviour every day. Please look at the amount of time he does not want to have her with him...

Which is not good for Looking4.

He hasn't even hit the six month ANGER mark yet. What's going to happen then? He is currently supposed to be in the I want to reclaim what's mine at any cost phase...

He's not...

My opinion, if she doesn't get him back on board soon, she won't have a one year mark...

The second point is, you mention not using Christian forgiveness with someone that is not processing it...

WHO exactly is supposed to be guiding her H through the processing if not his pastor???

THAT is why I suggested to get her pastor on board...

Right now, her BH doesn't want to hear it from Looking4 for the exact reason you mentioned.

I am a BH and have been there and was successful in restoring my marriage...

by going far beyond what MOST affair victims have had to do...

I had to give up one third of my entire family FOREVER to save my wife and I.

AND IT WAS WORTH IT!!!

That would not have happened if I had taken a let's see how it goes in a few months approach...

The veterans here called me to task and I listened.

There is a lot of difference between giving advice to someone else and actually having USED that advice yourself.

Take a look at who was successful and who was not and I don't always mean with a recovered marriage but actually learned something...

Look at who is now recovered by using MB principles and those that ignored all the help they were given.

I believe that EACH person's situation is DIFFERENT and have repeatedly said that she should use what seems applicable to her marriage. Her husband's disrespect is INCREASING along with his desire to be away from her.

Doing the same thing over and over if it's not working is not a plan...

It's insane...

Jim

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results - Albert Einstein (and Jim_Flint)


Hey L4. Haven't posted on your thread in a while but I have been lurking. Just wanted to chime-in and let you know I am still pulling for ya.

- Sh0cked

Hey Jim and L4... H is downstairs with his buddies playing cards. I played a few rounds, but I'm played out now and the testosterone was getting to me... so I retired to the computer room

Just wanted to respond to a few things Jim said. L4-- if this gets too "irrelevant" for you and you want us to take it off your thread, just say the word!

H'ok. Just wanted to say also that I'm glad that we (Jim and I) can discuss this rationally (the MB way!) without resorting to DJs and AOs over this! I am actually enjoying reading your perspective Jim, so please don't take my disagreeing with you as saying "you're wrong"... in a lot of cases, I think we are BOTH right, have just had totally different experiences going thru this, so it is helpful (hopefully!) for L4 to see BOTH sides of the fence, and take what is helpful for her.

And I do admire you and the way you have recovered your M, Jim. Its very clear that you and Mrs. Flint have created a wonderful M in the image of God, and that you worked very hard for that, and for that you should be proud. Its clear that path that the two of you took worked in your case!

Movin' along...


He is, I agree-- but I'm not sure that it definitively means doom for L4. I'm not sure what the "status quo" was with IB before all of the blew up. I'd say it is less concerning if these trips, etc were the status quo beforehand. Then it just means he hasn't changed at all... yet.

Even if it isn't status quo...and he's greatly increasing IB, my H did show a strong IB streak shortly after I returned home too. In fact, he'd outright TELL me he wanted nothing to do with me on certain evenings, that he wanted to go out alone, or with his buddies alone. He planned weekend trips with his buddies or brother and poker nights, etc, where it was clear I wasn't invited.

A lot of that has changed. I really don't think my H does anything anymore that I'm not invited to, if I wanted. Sometimes I don't go to his poker nights, just because poker isn't my thing, but its no longer a "I'm doing this to get away from you" thing. He used to just GO to these things, not even TELL me about his plans, let alone "ask" if I was OK with it.

Now? anytime he's going to do anything without me, he ASKS me how I would feel about it. Just this week when his boss had an extra ticket to a hockey game, he called me up and asked me how I would feel about him going. Wow! A lot better than a few months after I moved home. Light years! And I was more than happy to say "go ahead and go hubby, have a great time!" and I meant it. Instead of grumbling, "I can't believe he's going to a hockey game and didn't even bother to ask or tell me" and then getting angry and sulky.

Honestly, I'm not sure how that transition happened-- that's one I should put some thought into.... Again, it was a slow one, not a huge lightbulb moment or anything. Most of our recovery has been slow, but there. Some have lightbulb moments. Some don't. We haven't had one yet... but we're still getting there slowly.

Point is... L4's H's IB, while not "good" may not spell doom for L4 either. It may just be a "phase" he's going thru to "act out" his anger.


I sort of addressed this a few pages ago. I think maybe he "skipped" that phase just because the A had been over way before L4 confessed. L4 was already "his" again, long before he even realized it. That's my opinion tho. I really don't know L4's H well enough to call that one, of course.



I don't know if I agree with that. Took about a year for my H to stop threatening to leave, etc. He's still processing. Its taking him awhile because he doesn't have a basis for processing it all.



If he would talk to his pastor about all of this, I 100% agree with you. That's up to him. And I don't think that L4 can do anything other than suggest it to him... If its not what her H wants to do... I think trying to convince him would be a big LB. I know it would for my H. Kinda like how they say you aren't supposed try to teach MB to your spouse?-- that it can be a LB? Same idea, I think.



I truly commend you for that! Its amazing that you've been able to overcome what you have. I do admire you-- you have a strenghth and tenacity that many do not.


I'm certainly not advocating that L4 take this route. She needs an intense plan A. Complete with carrot (all the meet ENs and get rid of LBs stuff...) and stick (boundaries on her part for the AO's, etc). To be the wife that she knows she can be, to show her H what he would be walking away from.


Hmmm... OK, I can't help but feeling a tad bit insulted here, honestly. I feel that I am giving L4 advice from my experiences. Yours are clearly much, much, much different than mine. But I don't think that makes mine invalid (or yours, for that matter). We dealt with things two entirely different ways. Honestly, I would have prefered a more religiously or MB based route than mine... but H wouldn't have it. At all. So, I did what I had to. I can't force him. That's a big LB and I don't have that right.

Is my M 100% recovered? I'm not going to lie... No. Its not. Are we lightyears ahead of where we were a year ago? Yep. Through a lot of my own hard work? Yep. For the record, I'd say we are about 85% there. We made it over the hump, I think.. past the worst of it all.

I learned a TON about myself, and what being a true BUYER in M means. My entire attitude towards life in general has changed. Its amazing. Even if my M doesn't make it, I don't regret ANY of this. I am a much stronger, healthier person than I was even before all of this. ETA: I do of course regret my A, I meant I don't regret the changes that I have undergone in its aftermath. I wish I could have made those changes without having to do something so stupid first.


I didn't ignore any of it, but I did fight it for awhile. I wallowed in my victimhood for a bit before I "got it". Its amazing, my H knows NOTHING of MB principles, but from ME applying them CONSISTENLY to our M for the past year or so... HE has picked up on MB habits unknowingly! Its amazing. I changed my behavior, and his changed in kind. Slowly, but it did.


Agreed about the advice thing. And I'm not sure if it is increasing, or just hasn't decreased. And again, I experienced all of this also. It didn't necessarily spell doom for us. Not saying it might not here, but I think that "forcing" him to do anything is a bad idea. He has to WANT to spend time with L4. She can make it fun and inviting to do so, so that he wants to more... but


She's only been at this for ~3 months. My H still hated my guts at that time and wanted very little to do with me, for the most part (except for the occasional days we would have here and there that I would plan that were similar to what L4 planned for her H for V-day). From my lens, and my eyes, I just don't see any of this as "abnormal". Its all stuff we went thru too. I think he's just gonna take longer to process this.

Its a slow process, I guess. I don't get the sense that L4's H is gonna respond to any quick changes in any favorable manner. That's my opinion tho-- maybe he would, who knows. It might be worth a shot, but also might be really damaging too.

I do find your perspective interesting Jim, and I wish we could have done things the way you describe... but unfortunately it really does take 2 to do it that way. And my H certainly wasn't having any of that. I tried every way I could think of to "get him on board"... but in the end, the slow change, wait it out approach worked the best.

Kinda like when I watched a friend's cat one summer...and the cat ran away. I tried to catch the cat and everytime I approached it quickly, it ran faster than I could get there and hid somewhere again. Finally I got the cat back by propping open our back door, putting a can of tuna fish in the middle of the floor, and hiding inside. And waiting, silently, for a LONG, LONG time until the cat got up the guts to come and get the tuna. And when it did, I slammed the door behind it and it was caught. But chasing it around and trying to jump on it wasn't working. Might with some cats, but not with this one. You had to entice it slowly back. And be patient. That's how I got my H back.

My 2 cents! Hopefully something in there helpful for L4!

E.

Hey Eeyoree!

No problem here. Just because we disagree on the best approach for Looking4 doesn't mean we both don't want the best for her.

I DO like it that we can disagree in a RESPECTFUL manner and keep the focus on Looking4. The funny thing is that I think we actually AGREE on about 99% of it.

I think one thing that is worrying me is that being the BH I am a little concerned that Looking4's H is going to think that his entire marriage has been a lie...

which he has brought up several times.

Although the sexual part of her affair has been over for some time, HE just found out about three months ago, which means that the affair is BRAND NEW to him. Plus, he has the double whammy of finding out about the pre-marriage affair... I believe that most MB's measure the time from D-day as the length of time from the affair not actual time since the last contact with OP.(If not I stand corrected). If that is true he's still got about three months before the REAL anger hits...

Men look at the sexual part of an affair MUCH differently than women do. Some men look at it as a coup to steal another man's woman... The BH then looks for a way to boost his destroyed self esteem... Looking4's husband travels... Without the Christian influence and support what is to keep Looking4's H from wanting to even the score with a revenge affair? He may look at it as how would that be any worse than Looking4's affairs without Christian influence to stop him? He may bring up the point that Christianity didn't stop her affairs. In that case his faith had better be MUCH stronger than hers was at the time of the affairs. He might just look at it as now we're even... How do you feel about rebuilding now?

I do think that there are other ways for the Christian influence to be brought back to her H than having Looking4 do it (or even her pastor directly). It may involve getting involvement simply as support from other church members without even bringing up the affair. Just going to dinner with friends who are Christian would be a good start. Fellowship with other Christians is so very important to BOTH of their spiritual healing at this time.

Jim

Jim,

The feeling I got (correct me if I'm wrong here L4) is that L4's H has always had issues with IB. In fact I would bet that IB was one of the biggest contributions to the conditions that led to the affair. It strikes me as a major Love Buster for L4 and might be what drains her LB$ faster than anything else.

Couple this with AOs, which are expected right now but also might have been present even before D-day and it can make a huge contribution to the dynamic of recovery, or attempts at recovery.

It would be nice if L4's H could get HIS act together, examine HIMself, get HIS relationship with Christ straight. But HE isn't here and L4 is, so we can only counsel L4. I don't know that she can pressure her H into changing. She might be able to win him into changing, but educating him right now is going to fail because he isn't likely to listen to what she is saying.

Now if he were here, I would be all for using 2X4s or whatever it takes to get him into self reflection mode and take a look at HIS actions, but we only have L4.

I agree that the pastor should be involved in some way, though I recommend that either Pastor's wife or some other female leader of the church should also be involved in any counseling with L4. The problem is that her H might not be willing to talk to the pastor. He desperately needs somewhere to vent, share and learn, but HE has to be willing to do all of those things and until he does, L4 has to keep luring him back to her.

Call it Plan A if we must label it, but that is L4's only real choice right now until he gets on board with something. Plan A saved MY marriage. My wife still isn't fully on board with MB but I know how it works and can work it without her understanding what I am doing.

We can't really force L4's H into forgiving her. We can work with L4 to help her to forgive him for the contribution to the state of the marriage before the affair and even since. We can help her to forgive herself for failing to protect her marriage from an intrusion. But we simply can't make her H forgive her or himself, which is also part of the equation here since he at some level blames himself for failing to take care of his wife in a way that kept her faithful.

But all of this points to the frustration of trying to fix someone else.

I think that the best thing L4 can do is what she has been doing, spend some time seeking a deeper relationship with Christ and pray for her husband, not that he would get fixed or fix himself but that he would be open to a renewed, rebuilt relationship with both L4 and with Christ. It will be those prayers that will do the most to soften his heart in the long run.

I understand the 6 month anger period fears you express but some enter that phase at once, some never leave it and some hit it at 6 weeks or 2 months. I just fear that L4 trying to fix her H might lead to him restoring his relationship with Christ while walking away from her because he can't get past the feeling of manipulation he already feels over past counseling efforts while an affair was going on. He sees it as L4 having been trying to fix him while it was her affair that was breaking up the relationship. If he actually began to work on himself during that time (which I believe to be true) then his resentment is rooted as much in that as in the affair itself.

He (likely) feels like he was trying to fix himself and the problem was hers. Until he realizes that he does indeed have things he needs to fix, that resentment isn't going away.

The best L4 can do is show him that SHE is following Christ and pray that he will follow Him too.

JMO.

Mark

[quoteMark1952]
I just fear that L4 trying to fix her H might lead to him restoring his relationship with Christ while walking away from her because he can't get past the feeling of manipulation he already feels over past counseling efforts while an affair was going on.
[/quote]

Hi Mark1952,

I have always enjoyed your posts and admired their wisdom. They speak from what I believe is a balance of faith, compassion and strength...

The question is,

If after restoring his relationship with Christ he feels he needs to walk away from Looking4 because he feels he can never get past the manipulation and adultery I don't know what there is to save...

All of the time in the world will not change those facts, just as all of the time in the world will not give me back my brother...

He either accepts it or he doesn't.

I accepted it because I was still in love with my wife, not because she did this plan or that plan...

AND because I had been given the tools of a strong relationship with Christ and MB...

What coping tools does he have?

All he is seeing is that his wife is trying to hold onto him with everything she has...

Which he sees as: IF I KEEP THE MARRIAGE AT THIS STAGE I GET WHATEVER I WANT!

There is no motive for him to change, so he probably won't...

Why should he?

My wife EXPOSED herself,(sounds bad ...), to her own children and family to PREVENT her resumption of the affair...

EVERYONE that knows her now knows about their relationship.

She did that HERSELF with me and MB veterans urging her to...

Yep, The veterans here urged me to HELP (MANIPULATE) her for OUR own good!!!

To ensure that she be held accountable for her actions at all times...

Who have we suggested Looking4 and her H make themselves accountable to on a daily or weekly basis?

Dr. Harley is great but is not available everyday or week for them...

I suggested her church and Christian friends.

Anybody else have an idea because without outside influence of SOME kind he's going to sit on it...or worse.

Jim

Looking4,

Is your husband looking for guidance, or counsel? It does seem like he is pulling away from you. I might suggest that, instead of suggesting a particular counselor, you simply tell him that the IB is not acceptable to you plus any other behaviors you can't accept. No value judgment of his character is necessary, you can even say that you can see why he would feel justified, but that you can't accept it.

You may have done some terrible things but you are still a person and his wife for now. Even if he leaves you will be doing him a favor, because he needs to grow out of these behaviors.

Jim,

I agree that he needs to get his own relationship with Christ right no matter what happens to the marriage. I just think he would resist much of L4 telling him what he needs to do as her trying to fix, manipulate and control him.

I she can brig the pastor on board and the pastor can make the connection, her H might begin to open up and seek help for himself. Cristian friends can be of great help as well. It was a dear friend of mine who stayed up with me all night on the phone more than once that helped me get through the first few days following D-day. But again, I don't think L4 can suggest it.

Perhaps just setting up a social event with Christian friends could be of great help right now since seeing a model of Christ following in others could be of benefit, but I think it is too early to play the "Jesus says you should" card.

If L4's husband really is a Christian, he will come around. If he can't deal with what happened and moves on then that is his right, but you, me, L4, friends, no one can make him submit to Christ.

I'm at work and I'm just rambling anyway, so I'll drop it for now.

Mark