L4,

Please be very very careful if you choose this path. As a BH, I can not imagine how angry I would be if my spouse who cheated and married me under false pretenses then tried to make me become a good christian (which for this conversation seems to be equivalent to good person.) I might think the WW was totally crazy and just end my efforts. He is still there and still trying so think carefully please.

NAILED IT. This is it exactly, Mark.

So much happened in the last 24-hours. In short, last night was anything but Valentine's Day Part II. It was instead a DJ-fest (H) that ended with me sleeping in my daughter's bed until 3am. This morning we talked for almost 3 hours and ended in SF, which I think we both needed just to stablize ourselves after a very heavy night and morning.

Jim is right in that I have little time. In fact, I'm pretty sure H has one foot and the other 4 toes out the door now based on what he said last night and today.

E, my H sounds a lot like yours. He is resistant to staying and H does NOT want me guiding him in anyway as to how he should be handling any of this. While I did not tell H what he needs to be doing, H got the impression this morning that I was trying to steer his recovery and he did not like it. That was made VERY clear.

Don't worry, 6YL. I won't be preaching to H anytime soon. I know that would be a deal-breaker.

And Mark, you're correct with the IBs not being a new since D-day. The worst LBs that I get from H are DJs. No matter what I do or say, no matter how I respond or react, there appears to be no end to those. IBs and AOs are close behind.

I can't sleep now which is why I'm here at nearly 1am, but I also am too tired to relate all that has happened. H is at brother's and will be home tomorrow by dinner time. Until then, it all keeps rattling around in my brain.

And I gotta tell ya... If it's going to get worse in another 2+ months as the proverbial 6-month post-D-day mark nears?...

Holy cow.

L4

I think you are trying to make the healing process move an unatural face pace.

Your BH has consistantly shown that he wants to be left alone during this process. He does not want you or go to anyone to help him through this.

So let him stumble. Your nudging him is pushing him away. This can be a five year process. You say yes I know this will take a lot of time but then you fall right back into your agenda.

BH has his own agenda.

L4,
I was overflowing with resentment up until about 2 yrs before D-Day. That's 18 yrs. of built up anger. Only through educating myself and a very good friend with wonderful insight, did I slowly start to fix myself. Once D-Day arrived I had to step up my own fixing and begin dealing with a new catastrophe.

I can trace this back to the day we were married. It started with his IB's and SD's.
At that time and the years to follow of the same behavour, I can see how that resentment grew and consumed me. It happened slowly. I gradually allowed myself to behave very badly only towards my H, since he was my target, with my own IB's and DJ's.

I share this with you to let you know that I can identify with Mr. L4's words and actions. Your H's resentment and mine stem from different specifics, but the results are similar.

I'm not sure what opened my mind to even realizing what was going, and then seeking aid and support. Just a lucky hole in the bucket I guess.

Your H has needed help with his resentment for quite some time, pre D-Day and since. He now has the burden of hurt and betrayal on his plate also. I agree 100% that you can't educate him on resentment, he does need outside support for this.
My H used to say to me ' V, just let it go, get over it already will you', this used to make me so mad. I felt like by him not addressing my feelings, he didn't care.

I can understand how disheartening it is to watch and listen to your H not progress like you have.
If your H was cut and blood was pouring out of his jugular, would you not call the paramedics? I doubt at this time that he would be saying 'call for help', you would just do it.
You can't make him go to IC. I do believe that you can make someone available for him. You've said that your Pastor knows of the A, does your H know that the Pastor knows? Does the Pastor know the difficulty your H is having?

If the answer is yes and yes, I see no reason why you can't ask the Pastor to look in on your H, to simply make himself available and offer some wise words off the cuff.
And yes, you ask the Pastor to not mention that you have requested his visits.
This is being proactive to me, seeking help for someone who needs it but is refusing, b/c they simply can't see past their own hurt.
I like the idea too of involving yourselves in church socials and such. It would also make the Pastor's visits less conspicuous and not in your H's face so to speak.

And yes, I am prepared for the scrutiny of my suggestion.

Again, take care and hang in there.

I do agree with you Road. It's so hard to not want a quick fix or a more speedy recovery. Patience has been one of the hardest things for me and so many others around here.

I see Mr. L4 struggling and in the process bringing down L4 and her efforts.
L4, even if your H was in IC, it would still be taking ... this ... long.

L4,

I'm sorry things have gotten harder for you. No advice, just hoping that you have some happier days soon.

L4:

Reviewing your thread, you really need some help.

First: Accept that your Husband has a different POV of your actions from the past several years. You call them DJ's. They are not. They are HIS perceptions of the events in his life AT THAT TIME. let me give you an example:


Did you "Hate Him Last Year?" Maybe you didn't, BUT HE FELT THAT way. Stop minimizing his perceptions of your behaviors. It isn't a DJ of him to state that is how he felt about your attitude towards him. If you want this thing to suceed, you need to stop this.

Believe me, Flamingo WILL STILL tell me what I was like when I was in the throes on my A. Makes me somewhat angry. But that how she FELT, and no monday morning quarterbacking on my part will make that go away.

Second:


So. He doesn't like what the neighbors did. You wanted validation of your POV. He's got an empty glass. Cool. Don't debate it. He NOT going to give you that. He hasn't for a long time. But you have debated his POV for years as well. So he ready for the debate. He might find pleasure in it, or he might not. Doesn't matter. Don't engage. How about this:

L4: "“I see where our backdoor neighbors have really cleaned up their backyard. ...... The kids and I were checking it out.”

Mr L4: "Grump, Grump, Grump."

L4: "In my opinion, it's better than looking at the junk that was there, so, would you like something to drink?

BTW: I like the "chainsaw" quip. But you have to be able to pull it off. Dis-engaging in easier.


Third:

You stepped out on him before getting married, and then after you had been married along time. He thinks you are an excellent liar.

Guess what. You ARE. So am I.

I kept up my charade for 4.5 years. How long was yours?

So next time he says that your the worlds best liar? Just say to him: "I know this guy lousygolfer who is even better..." No that's not it. How about this: "Yes. Your right. I AM the worlds best liar. I lied to you about so many things and activities in my life that its amazing that you stayed around so long. Every day I realize more and more the depths of my betrayal to you. I'm practicing honesty with you now. I will tell you the truth even when it might hurt both of us. With the truth, we can BOTH recover this marriage"

See the difference? In your initial response, your debating him to make yourself look better, and to make your self feel better, at the expense of minimizing HIS feelings and HIS POV. The second proposed response? You agree with him. You WERE all of those things. Your trying NOT TO BE THOSE THINGS NOW>

Fourth:


This IS a no-win sitch for you. You DID take the choice out of his hands. Validate that. Then, state what is going to be different now. You had an A pre-marriage that you hid. The effects of that permeated all areas of your marriage. There was an 800lb gorilla in the room that YOU could see but husband could not. He would bump into it, and then you would change the subject. What can you do? State that it WAS a problem in the marriage, it is exposed now, and you two can grow a better marriage. There is no time machines. THere is no wishing. There is only future actions. There are no more invisible 800lb gorillas in the room. This is how the marriage will be better now.

Fifth:

This was rubydoo' post and your response:


Stop defending your horrible actions. Then one day, you can state Rubydoo's simple request. And Husband may reply as Rubydoo's husband did. Stop wishing for it. And start making it happen. Your Husband will accuse you of all sorts of horrible things. You defend yourself. So he pokes again. You do NOT have to be abused. You just have to change your response.

"Yes, I did that. I promise never to do that again."
"Yes, I was like that, I promise never to be that way again."
"Yes, you don't want to go there, I did. It was horrible of me, and I promise not to do those things again."

Sixth:


I found this interesting. Your husband is hurting, and wanted to be left alone. He went to his Man-Cave, to figure things out. You made yourself available to him. He declined. Then you presume that this is what the rest of your marriage is going to be like.

That's a stretch. OK? Your H has alot of processing to do. He is going thru the stages of discovery of the A. You have had every day to process your reality, he is just starting in with most of it. Do not presume that todays events are going to be the future. This is a Marathon, not a sprint. He can get triggered by a number of things. And want to retreat to the Man-Cave. Let him. Your role is to make sure that it is safe for him to exit the Man-Cave. When he comes out, you don't ask:

"Did you figure it out?"
"Are you happy that you ignored me and/or the family?"
"Glad you got that "desire to sleep in front of the fire" thing over with!"

And maybe say the following:

"Sometimes, you need to be alone, and I missed you last night. I left you so alone for so long. I don't want you to feel alone like that again in the future."

And last, since you comment on the length of posts, and this is WAY over my limit....


Sometimes? You just have to show the person that can care about you that you need help to. Let him hold you. There are many difficult exchanges to come. Resolve to stay with him during these times. And that you can be safe in his presence. And that he can make you feel safe.

You have come a long way. Honesty is a very difficult thing to practice when we have lied for so long. We have practiced and practiced for so long, they are habits. Bad Habits. Practicing good habits, leads to good habits.

Its a marathon. Not a sprint.

I think that the MB Weekend will do the two of you wonders. They have the ability to deal with the 'reluctant spouse" at the meeting. Phone counseling with the Harleys, even if just for yourself, can make a real difference for you. They can help you construct a path BACK into this marriage.

(((L4)))

LG

This was something you were willing and chose to do, Jim. Are you the exception, willing to sacrifice, risk, and take the chances for your M that you did? Or are you rule? Is my H like you? I don't see this in him. But then, what do I know. Even if I'm right, things can change, correct?

I've decided to stop analyzing.

Thank you, Sh0cked.

You, know... You were my third post here. I distinctly remember reading that response and feeling like I had insulted you. I felt badly about it too. I read it as you read my words for help as artificial, like 'Oh, great. Another WW looking to feel better about her betrayal.' (Talk about a DJ, huh?) Within a few posts, you shared your story, encouraged me, and seemed to sincerely want me to do right and be okay. I don't know, childish, perhaps, to care what a total stranger may or may not have wanted for me. Silly, but you checking in is appreciated -- like you feel my journey is worth following.

Thank you for your support.

L4,
It seems like a spectrum. Some BS are at one end of the spectrum, these are the ones who decide they will stay, do whatever it takes to remain in the marriage. Some are at the other end, these are the ones who go straight to Plan D.
Your H is still with you, confused, angry and hurt. But he is still with you. He maybe falls somewhere in the middle.
This same spectrum can be applied to FWWS's.

Please don't let his emotions drag you down. You have come so far. Do you realize he may have left long ago if you had not been so committed to rebuilding. Continue that rebuilding, it will not go unrewarded.

So, to answer your question ... yes, things can change.

Take care you.

Hello Looking4,

I am reading your post and I see so much of my wife in you...

I read your quote of part of what I had written,

I am a BH and have been there and was successful in restoring my marriage by going far beyond what MOST affair victims have had to do...

The most important part was the ending of that quote which read,

I had to give up one third of my entire family FOREVER to save my wife and I.

AND IT WAS WORTH IT!!!

You asked if I was the exception, willing to sacrifice, risk and take the chances for your marriage that you did, or are you the rule? Is my husband like you? I don't see this in him. But then, what do I know? Even if I'm right, things can change, correct?

The answer is,

WE BOTH WERE.

This is going to probably put me in tears, but here I go...

My wife is and was the love of my life.

And she tells me that I am hers.

We were always meant to be together.

In the beginning she never wanted to leave. Only when she thought there was no way back did she even consider that, and that was because she thought I would be better of with someone else...

She never stopped wanting to be with me, even though she was having an affair, as strange as that sounds.

She has told me so many times that she couldn't imagine a life without me...

or me without her.

If you have read my thread, you know what caused her fall...

Anger, resentment, entitlement, boredom, feeling she wasn't "good enough". She purposefully had her affair with a loser to feel superior...

All of the usual reasons.

We were meant to be together.

We do EVERYTHING together because we can't stand to be apart...

I looked at her then and realized that if I could forgive her that I would have the woman I had waited my whole life for.

The one that I loved with all of my heart and soul.

And still do...

That is why I made the heart rending decision that I did.

Medc asked me early,

Why would I want to be with her after such a betrayal?

Because I love her.

Look at your early marriage and why you married your husband.

Before you both started making mistakes.

If you had what my wife and I had, and you are willing to do what my wife and I did, you will make it if you get busy.

There were no limits on what my wife was willing to do to repair the marriage. She let my family and the world know what she had done AND who she wanted to be with. There was no limit to her repentance.

In return I did what had to be done to save her and I.

No regrets.

I have the woman of my dreams and she the man of hers.

If you have specific questions a fantastic wife might answer for you, ask Mrs.Flint.

She's not a former wandering anything.

She's my wife and I am so proud of her.

God bless.

AND



Jim

Your H and mine are similar, I believe, E.

It just hasn't decreased. My H doesn't see the disrespect he shows me. Since my confession, he tells me he does respect parts of me -- my work ethic, how I treat my friends, how I care for our children. But as far as respecting me as his partner, some ways he might, but then other actions tell me he doesn't. Understandable since he learned of my lies, but this was true before he knew too.

We're probably limping more along the lines that you and your husband did, E.

H wouldn't.

Yes. Thanks, E.

L4:

Guess you missed my post, Huh?



Oh well.

LG

lg,

In my view, L4 has been one of the more polite and conscientious posters I've followed on this board . I have rarely seen her ignore a post and she usually takes the time to respond thoroughly.

It looks to me like she has taken a break from minute-by-minute, post-by-post replies, for whatever reason. I'm interested to see how things are going with her.

Obviously, you took a great deal of time and care in your excellent post to her. I bet she'll get around to it soon.

Hi, LG and everyone else.

I'm so wanting to spend time here today on MB. Really. And I've read all the news posts a couple of times, wanting to take them in -- take them seriously as I do all responses here. I respect everyone's input. My H is gone today. I have two kids who are wanting my attention big time, so I'm finding very little time to be on the computer. We've played chess, checkers, made "goo" (corn starch, water, and food coloring) where the clean-up alone is a chore, played badmitton, done three loads of laundry, baked banana bread, did hair make-overs, built a fort in the livingroom, and I just put a lasagna in the oven -- my first ever attempt at the dish. (Yikes!) I want to get a salad made before H walks in the door and we're going to watch part of a movie after that so I can't do much more here now. I often want to respond to everyone, if nothing more to aknowledge their input but sometimes its overwhelming. In a good way, though, so I am not complaining. I appreciate the time people commit here to helping others -- including me.

I will get back to this. Either later tonight if my H wants his alone time, or if H wants to be with me, it'll have to be sometime tomorrow.

Thanks, for your time.

Praying you don't get back till tomorrow...

Mark

Hey L4.

I'm so sorry to hear that your date night did not go as planned. Hopefully, what happened ends up being a blessing in disguise. Sometimes, those really difficult talks or even just a random comment, the ones that are heartbreaking to hear and make you think this is never going to work, end up being a step forward in it's own way.

I think it is also important to realize, and you probably already do, that people are just different. Everyone of us handle things, especially difficult things, differently. I am a talker. I want to talk everything out until it's settle. My H is not. When I confessed to him, we basically had that one long talk and a couple of email exchanges initiated by him. And when I brought it up or even just mentioned, "Are you okay? Is there anything I can answer for you...anything I can do to help you?"...my H would react with, "Stop bringing it up. Don't mention it anymore. I do not want to talk about it." Oh man, I was dying. I wanted to talk with him so bad. I wanted to know everything he was thinking and feeling. Heck, there was even a time, a long period of time, that I wished he would just start a fight with me over all of this, call me horrible names, anything just so that I would know what was going on in his mind. Remember those drive by hits I talked about? Well, even though they hurt me very much, in a sick, twisted way, they also brought me some relief. It gave me an idea of where his head was, because he wasn't openly sharing it with me.

He wasn't interested in MC. He wasn't interested in MB. He wasn't interested in reading books. I was on my own in proactively healing our marriage. And I can only imagine what his reaction might have been if I tried to strong arm/influence him with God and forgiveness. And in doing so, I knew what a hypocrit I would have looked like. And although I agree with Jim's points of view on this matter, well, like I said, it's a lot easier said than done.

Keep working on you L4. Continue to show your H through your actions that you are sincere and remorseful. Validate his thoughts and feelings. Lead by example. And again, remember this is a marathon not a sprint.

(((L4)))

It's hard, TheRoad. One day he's talking and acting like he's out the door. So I don't know if then I'm supposed to give him space or instead show how much I need him to stay without being whiney or do both, however possible that might even be??? The next day we're lying in bed completely entangled -- like we were an hour ago at lunchtime. And then just moments ago he was sending me suggestive IMs. So now I don't know if I'm supposed to encourage the intimacy (whether more SF or intimate conversation) or wait to see if he initiates it so I don't look like I'm pushing my own agenda.

I don't know what H's agenda is. I agree it's his and he needs to follow his and not mine, but then I'm also getting word here that I have to help him with his healing, in essence help him know what his agenda might be. Since he won't tell me (and I won't force that), I'm trying to read him and read each situation so I can respond the best way. The problem is I'm reading the situations by braille and I don't read braille.

Why can't he send me the "How to Help Mr. L4 Heal" manual so I know what to do?

Yokay... Here we go...

It's how he says it that makes it a DJ, LG. He doesn't say, "I felt that you hated me." He states it affirmatively as "You hated me." I am very conscientious to say how I feel as "I feel that," or "I think that," or "I believe that," and he will turn it around and say that what I feel, think, or believe is wrong or untrue. When it's in regards to my own feelings -- when he's telling me what's in my own head or heart -- isn't that a DJ?

Got it. Until or unless I become as witty as BR.

I am. You're right. I guess I naively think that because I'm not lying any more it should be irrelevant. But that's most certainly not the case -- especially to someone who's been betrayed to the level H has been. I'm ashamed at how good I was and want to focus on how honest I am now. Gee, imagine why he's not able to do that yet???

I didn't tell about my pre-M affair so 16.5 years.

Tempting...

Got it.

I believe I'm also doing this. I'll keep at it.

I don't believe I have ever defended my horrible actions as they related to my cheating. I have been told here to set my boundaries and when they're tested to stand up for myself. When H has recently called me a name, I did as was suggested and said something like, "I know you're hurting, but please don't use those words. If you do, I'll have to leave." He responds with something like "Well you are." So if I defend my boundary that's inapprorpriate?

Good ideas.

It's hard because this is how it was for so long. He wouldn't talk with me. I'd ask what is wrong and he wouldn't share. I'd get offended that he wouldn't share then I'd start shutting down and wouldn't talk to him. We became mired in avoiding each other and couldn't turn it back around. When H had been avoiding me for a few days recently, I was flashing back to the bad times and I panicked because I can't go down that road again. I wanted to bring H back to the fork and take the other road. But you're right in that while the road H is on might be longer, it's not to say his road doesn't lead to the same place where I am. It's logical here, just please understand that years of precedent make it hard to internalilze that.

Good answer.

Never! Go on and on for all I care. This is helpful. (Have you not seen some of my posts???)

He does make me feel safe now. But I'm also trying to be sensitive to not being in his face, reminding him of how I betrayed him. I've been "going to the park", as we now call it, because I'm trying to be sensitive. I don't want to put any undue pressure on H. Now I'm confused again...

I ran both cross country and in track 'n field (hurdles) in high school. I know the difference. Don't know which I preferred.

I would LOVE this. And I've suggested it. Ain't gonna happen. H won't even fill out the EN questionnaire, let alone spend $2K to go to Minnesota and have a "stranger" analyze us.

I have done this solo and it was indeed very helpful.

Thank you.

And thank you for your well-thought post.


Hey, I'm wondering for anyone willing... Could we wire me up with a mic and an earpiece so that when I'm talking with H y'all can feed me the right responses? You come up with such good answers here and while I feel I incorporate the flavor of them, I'm sure I'm flailing sometimes and could use your experienced repartee.

Ya-huh.

Whew!