That would be all of them, actually.

Very well said!

Consider the character of a repentant heart. Then watch for the actions that demonstrate those character traits of a truly repentant person. Also, watch for actions that demonstrate an unrepentant heart.

A WS may be willing to do SOME actions that do look repentant. But there are some they will refuse (like not using an IM), that indicate unrepentance.

This certainly seems to be the theme of this thread.

We often see this moment as our big shot at recovery. Fear takes over and we make poor choices and lay our heart out there yet again to the wayward.

Ding ding ding!

My H's first A ended when I exposed to OWH. H was so resentful of me ending his fun before it "ran its course" that for two years he was wayward in his thinking and immature toward me. Guess what happened? Yep, old gf # 2 calls and off we go on yet another affair. This time produced an OC and a LTA.

IMCO, the best approach is to assume WS never change their spots. No matter what they may say. No matter how many tears they cry.

I learned this via re-re-re-re-recovery:

Assume, whether they are assiduoulsy performing some or all recovery related things or not, assume deep down they will always be who they really are, and who they always were.

Assume they are playing you, or will be again sooner or later

Then you will not be overly disappointed.

Then you will be somewhat prepared.

Then your heart will be protected, if only a little.

The book by Dr Harley

Article mentioning Dr H and his book.

Article from [i]Experience Life [/i]magazine

And maybe 100 threads on this site that I'm too lazy to link right now. (I'm feeling like a renter at the moment)

Mark

I listened, and thus it was not something that I would do differently. At the time, I just did not agree.

FWIW, I do not feel like if I had done something different, I would have had a better or more streamlined "recovery." I would have been spared some of the anguish that often accompanies hope, but it would have had no real effect on the outcome.

Said another way, some of us, if we choose to attempt recovery, are going to endure false recoveries, no matter what we do.

Slight TJ - rprynne - Is your wife in the reserves?

Nope.

OK. I saw a FWW posting with the same name on another site.

I hope that through my mistakes and pain, others could avoid some. However, it may be like with your kids, one has to experience things in order to see the light...


1. WHAT did you do that you wish you'd done differently?
Kicked him out the first day, not allow fence sitting, not beg and cry, hmmm, not listen to what I wanted to hear but to really listen to what was being said...I saw some terrible divorces and didn't want that for my sons, what I did to avoid divorce was worse on me...I should have trusted that they would be okay as I would be there to help them vs. caught up in my pain.

I wish I had not stayed married at all costs because the costs financially, emotionally and the additional pain I caused to my kids for not protecting them wasn't worth it. I think that often the BS can be selfish too and hide under the umbrella that they don't want to D due to the kids where it is really the fear and insecurity keeping them there, not the kids (at least not entirely).

2. WHAT clues did you miss (or ignore) that your WS was not ready for recovery?
Mostly it was his attitude didn't change, he acted like he was doing me a favor. Wasn't open and honest, didn't read anything and went grudgingly to counseling. Fought/argued about A details, didn't want to discuss as he didn't "remember". I sensed the insincerity deep down, didn't want to face it.

3. WHAT lessons did you learn that you'd like to pay forward to others, so that they might avoid a FR?

Like others said, trust your gut, I sensed something wasn't right after d-day #2 and snooped and snooped, kept looking...it took me three years to find it. The pain and shame of my own stupidity is hard to bear, my biggest problem is forgiving myself.

In my sitch I was/am the breadwinner and supported WH's dream of owning his own business. The business tanked due to the economy, we are in major debt. Before we closed the biz, I workd FT+, did the books for WH, cleaned the store, grocery shopped, paid the bills, cleaned the house/laundry. WH was plotting how to get in touch with OW. I can't come up with the words of how I felt last year after finding out...shame, pain anger, beating myself up, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Have boundaries, look at the attitude, trust yourself, and verify with every manner you have available. Avoid inflicting pain on yourself by being grateful he/she is there and not asking for the respect and a good relationship that you deserve.

Mark, you have expressed very well something that I have established in my own mind.

I have realised for some time that there is a difference between a wayward who is no longer in the affair and a former wayward. The problem is that I don't know how a BS can ever really know the difference, or at least not after a FR.

My H has said many times that the affair is over, and has promised me that what happened will never happen again. And while he is not exactly contrite and horrified about what he has done, or disgusted at what he became, he is passionate and loving and caring to me, perhaps more than ever before. He does seem to be very sorry that he hurt me.

The problem for me is that I know how easily and convincingly he can lie, and so I have learned not to try and judge what his attitude or demeanour mean, or to rely on my instincts. My instincts have been as wrong as they could have been with regard to H's honesty in the past.

During FR, I watched him lie when I knew about some contact or other and when I confronted him, if I hadn't known already about the contact I would never have known he was lying. He never looked guilty while he lied, he never avoided my eyes, he never blushed or stumbled over his words or did anything else suspicious. He looked me in the eye and told me that he hadn't seen OW and but for the evidence contained on his phone I could not tell that he was lying.

During FR our sex lives improved; I suspect that he was highly turned on by my willingness to compete with OW and I was probably trying to bond with him to break the bond that he had with her. And so now I cannot look at how passionate our sex life is; it was more passionate than ever before during FR.

His desire to keep the marriage going - as well as the affair - at times when it seemed most likely to end, made him attentive, kinder, more passionate and, it seemed, just more loving to me than ever before, in and out of bed. That was partly why it came as such a shock to find out about the final 9 months of FR. My mental anxiety and fragility during those 9 months came from the fact that he still travelled in his job and he still went to work everyday and was at liberty to talk privately to her on the business phone from his (private, solo) office. It came from the fact that about 4 times I found her number in his dialled calls on the mobile. It did not come from his treatment of me.

The dialled calls are obvious clues to me now, but at that time I thought I could not divorce him over the record of dialled calls. I could not break up my children's home over that.

And so, because I have learned not to try and judge H's attitude or demeanour, I go forward on the basis of the provable changes in his actions. He has given up the travelling job, and since I contacted OWH, she has given up her job abroad and moved back into the marital home. She is not free to come to London any more. However, I feel that I can never be sure of complete NC; they can always use public phones and internet cafes at any time to contact each other.

And so, I have ended up with what you describe; at best, a husband who is no longer in the affair but not one that I can call a FWH. I am not unhappy with that limbo, but I would prefer to have the security and commitment that other BSs here feel. I just don't know how to get it, or what gives them their certainty.

I was somewhat reassured when the affair descended into acrimony in 2007, after OW heard from her H what my H had been saying about wanting rid of her for months. Her love turned to hate within days, and she told him "you're not dumping me; I'm dumping you!" However, I am aware how easily their mutual feelings of anger could soften and that they could reach out to each other again. If that happens, I don't know how I would be able to tell. I could not tell at all that the affair was continuing during the first year of FR.

I don't see myself as necessarily in real recovery now. I might be, and if I am, time will tell. If I'm not, again time will tell. I firmly believe that if he and OW are is some kind of contact will find out one day, and that if and when I do, I am incapable of being hurt as I once was.

That is because I don't believe in him any more. I don't really know how any BS who has suffered repeated betrayal can fully believe in their spouse ever again. I envy those that do, but I don't know how to achieve this myself.

beginagain, I'm very sorry to hear your story. Are you still with your H?

Wow -- this is a great thread. Lots of beneficial information. And I can relate to most of what everyone is contributing as I've "been there, done that" multiple times this past year.

Red Flags:
1. Trust your kids' instincts.
I wanted to believe that each of WH's returns were real, as did my DDs. But DS17 knew all along that WH wasn't sincere. He could tell that Dad wasn't the same old Dad.

2. Beware if WH avoids family events.
My WH either did not attend (I'm "not ready") or drove his own car so he could leave early.

3. Beware of WH making promises -- even the ones he makes in writing.
Just because promises are in writing or spoken in front of a priest/parent/counselor/kids doesn't make it less likely he'll break them. I tried that.

4. WH underestimating how hard recovery would be. He repeated "It's not that hard. I never really tried before" to convince me to let him come home the last time. I've learned: IT IS THAT HARD AND TRYING IS NOT COMMITING.

5. Each False Recovery is worse than the previous one.
I should have been more forceful during FR #1 to prevent the rest. And the last FR was pretty much a joke. I did figure that he just wanted to be home for the holidays to "save face" with the kids AND to get his name included on our family Christmas card.

6. Beware if it's all about him and his pain and his depression and withdrawl. Too much space is not a good thing. And he should have been breaking his back to make it up to me. Instead I got ignored.

7. Don't negotiate.
Big lesson -- Do not negotiate with terrorists. Do not negotiate with waywards.

If he requires negotiating, he's not ready. You shouldn't have to convince him to come back. He should want it badly.

8. Don't be afraid to bring in others to make sure WH is ready to come back. Use SH or family members or friends. Not that it will happen again (since he's filed for D), but should he ever want to return, I'd convene a giant meeting and let them drill him on motives and let THEM vote as to whether he can rejoin the tribe -- er -- family or be voted off the island.

Just caught up on this thread.

I'm not feeling so 'spiffy' anymore about R. But that's okay. Time will tell if I will be added to the 'idiot' list.

This is still the most helpful thread. Everyone's insights are invaluable to those of us reading that are in early in R.

P.S. Thank you Ace

Acey,
I appreciate your concern so much.
It's all cool. Like you said 'keep your guard up'. I think I just let mine down a bit.
And it's good to have reminders, which is what this thread is doing.
Sorry for the t/j.

I'm quoting this again because this is VERY true. I've learned this the hard way and continue to learn it.

THIS IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT.

After the FR I have never negotiated recovery and I don't plan on starting.

I'VE done all of the reading, learning, understanding and with the help of MB and everyone here, I know pretty d*mn well what it takes to recover.

If a FWS does the same kind of learning that most BS's do, there wouldn't be a NEED for negotiating.

a big A M E N