This was written by poster Star*fish - I keep it on my notable posts thread. I think this thread can use it's own copy. Here it is:

Good lord that's a good post. I'm in this period of establishing my boundaries and questioning how hard I enforce them, and exactly how TO enforce them.

In this most recent recovery attempt, my wife finally started saying all the right things. Stopped blaming the marriage for the affair. Took 100% blame for her actions. Told me it was her issues with happiness and coping, not issues with me. Now this got her back in the door, even though I had reached the end of my rope. Since then there has been some sliding back into the fog. When I reinforce boundaries, she treats them as LBs. I think I can come up with better ways to reinforce the boundaries, because it usually consists of me saying, "I'm still ready to end this." It's a threat, which hurts her because at this point (one week in) she feels that just being here and remaining somewhat cheerful are the extent of the efforts she can muster. With some probing she will say that all the things she said last week were still true. She's just not living it very well.

In 'Surviving the Affair' and on many of these forums, it is stated that we should not expect much from the WS in these early weeks of withdrawal. Dr. Harley says we should not expect an apology. That seems a little at odds with some of the hard and fast requirements for penitence I read in this thread. In the process of recovery, especially those who are still going strong, did you find that the WS seemed to withdraw from those initial feelings of remorse? I would assume this is pretty normal. I'm just a little unclear as to the enforcement of my boundaries. For instance I said she would have to commit to working with MB concepts. She agreed, but of course has not lifted a finger. Do I wait until we're through withdrawal to bring it up again? Do I let her make that decision on her own - then enforce my boundary if she doesn’t? Do I remind her every day of her commitment to do this? Hope this is an appropriate post here. I feel like these questions are repeated a million times here!

Well of course WS's treat boundaries as LBers, especially when they are IB experts and are used to running roughshod all over you.

Boundaries feel controlling to them and they often become angry and agitated. Totally normal. They act like teenagers who want to do what they want without anyone stopping them. They can act very selfishly.

They are not used to the "new BS"...the one who won't be a doormat any longer and this frustrates them.

...

You are right this, is a threat and not a boundary.

A boundary would be:

"I am not willing to stay in a M in which ___________ occurs, or continues to occur."

In SAA, Dr. H is talking about affairs in general. He not addressing FRs.

This thread is focused solely on recovering....after you thought you were recovering.

Some here have gone as far as to renew their vows, only to find out later it was all a FR.

The rules must change, IMO as a BS, because this damage has been so great.

In my own situation, I did an excellent Plan A and was more than willing to deal with his withdrawal...the first time, and even the second time. But the third time? NO, I was done. It was MY way or the D-way.

I had nothing left. I believe another FR could have very well killed me, or at least put me in the hospital. At that point, I could not have coped with any more lies, any more half-measures, any more withdrawal, any more anything, other than "whatever you need honey".

So...

the rules had to change.





During the FR, yes.

During the real recovery, no. His remorse only grew.

I would be very suspicious of a "F"WS whose remorse waned even a little.

I can honestly say, looking back, I have NO idea how I even kept putting one foot in front of the other, but the FR's really knocked me down.

I was my own worst enemy. I took him back too soon, TWICE. After finding MB, I followed the plans, but found myself weakening my boundaries or moving them altogether, just for the CHANCE at recovery with my WH. It was a PAINFUL three years.

For me, I have learned that I would rather be alone, divorced and dealing with THAT reality, than giving a wayward spouse the 'benefit of the doubt'. I truly believe that the WS SHOULD show remorse, be contrite and have hit bottom, so that they are willing to change their behaviors, just as we BS's have chosen to change ours (Plan A). If they don't come back, then you are better off, IMHO.

Mark's post resonated with me, as well as SMB's. I am still dealing with the emotional and physical trauma from all of the hell I've trudged thru.

I never felt at ease, never felt even the slightest bit safe or cared for. I knew, deep down, I did not matter in his life. Only he mattered, his pain. Hindsight is 20/20, but I KNEW in the moment that I was on thin ice. If I had it to do over again, I would have gone Plan B the second time I asked him to leave (after finding MB), no light in sight, darkness, and not acknowledged his existence, if/until he was carrying the load.

I had already shown my willingness to do the work necessary to recover.

(((SL))))

SL, have you been on T2L's thread? If not, I think you could be of help to her if you have the time and don't mind stopping by there.

This is my first time posting, as I have been a lurker for about 1 year. I believe I have been in recovery for the past 11 months. My first D-day (my husband confessed) was april 2006. My husband had a 2 month affair with a married co-worker that lasted 2 months. He agreed to end the affair and do anything to regain my trust and the marriage back. We went to marriage counseling for 1 year which in hindsight we were given terrible advice. I did not know of MB... We were advised that our marriage could be recovered even if he continued to work with her. So stupidly I listened to the advice and did not require my husband to leave his job. Fast forward 1+ year..I thought that we had made it through 1 year. I knew that our marriage was not perfect but we were doing okay. Talked about having our second baby. He was in full agreement to come off birth control. Got pregnant. Found out that the affair never ended when I was 9 weeks pregnant. Ouch!!!! I was blown away to say the least. Felt completely trapped! My husband left me in an awful position. Again at this point I did not have the advantage of knowing the MB principles. I kicked him out of the house and saw a divorce lawyer. She advised me that I was really in a precarious position financially and emotionally. I was 6 months away from having a baby, without the help of my husband, no local family, unable to work for a while, financially strapped etc... My lawyer and financial adviser both encouraged me to try and work things out...Long story/short he returned home. Put his hand on the bible and told me that he ended things for sure this time and swore to having no further contact with her. (At this point she had left his workplace) Of course these were lies. He continued to have his cake.
Finally I was 2 months from my due date. I was at a complete breaking point. I was in shock that I was about to have a baby and my husband was still actively involved in his affair. It was amazing to me that he could give up our marriage and risk bonding with our new baby. I guess he reached rock bottom too when he realized this and finally really ended the affair on the phone in my presence. He left his job. We relocated out of state. He did individual counseling. I have found MB and we have been doing the home study course.

So in hindsight...I wish that I had found MB earlier and learned about Plan A and Plan B. I forgave him too quickly, never required him to leave his job. He convinced me that it would be the demise of his career. Did not realize that it would be the demise of our marriage. I gave him the benefit of the doubt way too many times. I believed he could not possibly be having an affair while I was pregnant. Even when I knew things did not seem right I did not press him enough or snoop enough. He was often vague about details of his day. Got annoyed when I asked too many questions. All big red flags. Also, I did not expose enough. I was afraid of his anger. Looking back I cannot believe how naive I was. I was always the one talking in marriage counseling. He would agree most of the time that I was right and he would try to do better in the future but would never change his actions. He would talk a good game but no real commitment. No vulnerability with regards to his emotions.

So in about 2 weeks we will hit our 1 year mark with NC (as far as I know). As I have said we moved out of sate but prior to our move she attempted contact through phone calls to his work phone. He would allow me to listen to the messages. That lasted for the first month after his NC phone call. Our baby is now 9.5 months and he can't imagine what life would have been like if he continued in the affair. He would have missed the birth and many special bonding moments that only a live-in father would have. He says that it makes him sick. I think he is sincere and my gut tells me that this is a real recovery but there is always a lingering thought of WHAT IF.... What if I am still an idiot? I don't think so but I hope that feeling goes away some day.
Sorry if my story is not very organized but I am trying to summarize a period of about 3 years.

(me) BW-36
WH-35
3 yo and 9 month old
1st dday 4/19/06
2nd dday 10/12/07
3rd dday 2/4/08
NC 3/4/08
In recovery

ashes - I started a thread just for you

It really is a joy to me to see you ladies, SMB and MarriedForever, in TRULY recovering marriages. It was a long PRE recovery haul for you both.

I'm certainly not perfect, and have made my own share of mistakes along the way. What I have learned will take me a long way in my next relationship and it has helped a great deal with having the tools to teach my boy how to be a man.

If I had one set of advice for anyone reading this, set the bar HIGH. Do not SETTLE, not even a little. Do your part, change your own behaviors, but never lower that bar. I know this is easier SAID than done, but it really is the best thing for everyone involved in the end.

Find your boundaries and your terms for recovery and stick by them.

SMB,
I have not been a frequent flyer on T2L's thread. I have read here and there. She seems to have lots of help.

In the end, it's not how much help you have, it's your willingness to accept it.

And IMHO, the willingness to be willing to do WHATEVER it takes...Even when it's NOT what you WANT to do.

SL, I have watched you walk this journey in pain and my mind just wants to smack the WH, he is losing such an incredible woman.

Last night I had what I can only describe as a PTSD response to a trigger. FR's create scars so deep and hair trigger responses to certain situations that, for me, were happening during the A/FR's.

SL, tst and I were reading this last night and he said to me...

Yes, it was a long haul for you...

Yes, it is a truly recovering marriage...

Yes, it is a joy.

Then with tears in his eyes, he kissed my hand.





Yes, she does. But your insight is very valuable. She doesn't have Plan Bers on her thread that I know of. (I think MF has stopped by a few times briefly.)




Brilliant!

I talk to her offlist frequently so don't post to her much on it. I've already told her my opinion

Thank you, SL.

The following was written by TogetherAlone.
It's an accurate account of how most marriage recovery starts.... just beautifully stated!


(from the notable posts thread)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I think an awful lot of things about recovering from infidelity are almost impossibly hard to do. It takes a huge amount of personal growth on the part of both spouses, but if both of you can manage it, the recovered marriage is not the real reward - the true prize is the strength, stamina and maturity you've had to acquire to get there.

If there are young children involved, then making the supreme effort to build up the muscle and climb the mountain is well worth the trying.

The trouble is that, in most cases, only one of you is motivated to start the climb IN THE BEGINNING. The BS has to set out on his/her own, in the hope that the WS will wake up and start putting in the effort at some point. You're working on yourself while the WS is sulking, whining, feeling sorry for themselves and acting like a martyr. That's a really tough time.

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.

Either way, the BS emerges a bigger human being.

Not one of us would have asked to be hit by infidelity, any more than we want cancer or the death of a child. But the big crises that hit us are the best opportunities we have to grow in character and integrity."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This particular paragraph is very relevant to this thread:

You know, I think that's the turning point in most marriages here that get through - when the BS sets out on the journey on their own. Setting boundaries, refusing to be gaslighted, being clear about what they want, taking their own audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies, becoming a strong, clear-thinking person. When the WS 'gets' that this is happening, they either start shaping up, or they run away.


Taking audit of personal weaknesses and dependencies --- this is the basis of personal integrity. .... and, as it turns out, the basis of recovery, both personal and marital (if the WS does his/her own personal audit as well).

Taking a WS back in absence both spouses being willing to take an honest personal inventory, is the basis for FR.

(I know this seems obvious, but it is a recently discovered truth for me)

This gave me chills, SMB...I llove hearing FWSs who "get it", and are able to empathize with the BS and are not afraid to feel or show true, deepfelt remorse.

I agree with this...the tricky part for the BS is RECOGNIZING what is needed.

It's so very hard when you are in the thick of it and you cannot see the forest for the trees.

I believe it TOOK Plan B for me to be able to see this clearly...I needed to get out from under the SPELL FWH was putting over me with the gaslighting and manipulating.

In hindsight, I almost wish my PB was longer. 6 weeks isn't long enough.

I have a few books that I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend that the BS read during PB, in preparation for possibly getting into recovery:

"Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend
"Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson

These are the highest priority. A few others that were helpful to me are:

"My Husband's Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me" by Anne Bercht <

<I HATE the title of this book and it was hard for me to even get passed it to begin reading it. However, it is a great personal account of what one can expect in recovery. I also gave it to my mom to read so that she could know and understand a little better about what I was going through, and that was helpful.

This book is how I found MB...there is a list in the back of helpful websites, so I am ever grateful for this book>

"Co-Dependent No More" This was helpful to ME, in order to be able to stick to my boundaries. It can be a bit tricky to NOT use the principles in regards to POJA and some other MB principles, but overall it was helpful to me.

***Note: this list is assuming the books by Dr. Harley have been read***