Bringiton...

The cause of the 'kilt' wearing is easy then... it is overcompensation. He wears the kilt in defiance of 'anyone' calling him down on it. When you feed into it by telling him you don't like it, it simply goes to prove his point that he is 'MAN ENOUGH TO WEAR A DRESS.'

Heh... now the fix is something else indeed.

You might try a 180 on him, and set up to go to a big dinner or somewhere where there will be alot of people around interacting. It will be hard for you, but 'Tell him he should wear his kilt.' There will be enough people around 'like me' who would ask him his heritage assuming there was a reason OTHER than low self esteem, who would say something. With enough people assuming he had a reason OTHER than his true reason, he would probably see the act for the foolishness it is.

Heh... I feel for you... but it is simply overcompensation. I would work on what you can to improve his self image while he is NOT wearing the kilt and completely and utterly ignore it when he wears it. The problem is simple... the fixing might not be so simple. But the symptoms are straightforward. Help him to feel like more of a man when he DOESN'T have the kilt on, and he will probably have less desire to prove how tough he is...

IMO

Thanks CFIO,

I'm sorry for TJing your thread.

Sooo, back to your original intent. I did read on your other thread that things seem to be improving with your DW, is that right? As far as the EN questionaire...that's great!

Have you and DW actually done the Love Buster questionaire, then, to make sure any holes in the "love bank" are not making all your (EN) efforts moot?

I see some of the posters to your thread come across as very antagonistic towards women and post that they're (women) are just refusing to meet SF needs...I imagine that their (the posters') antagonism is affecting their wives' libido tremendously. Who wants to have SF with an angry man?

I agree...

It is a viscious circle. The man feels slighted by not having his EN for sex fulfilled. He becomes 'crabby' 'expectant and yes 'angry' because the only one who CAN or at least SHOULD fulfill that need WON'T do it. So he withdraws and thinks, 'well hell, I am not going to talk with her... if I do, I am mad enough as it is.'

The wife, for whatever reason initiated it, has diminished desire for SF with her husband. And feels like he should 'make me feel like it' by whatever means she feels HER ENs are not being met. Therefore, she thinks "I am NOT going to do something with MY body unless I feel like it." So she quits initiating, or even having sex altogether, and then wonders 'why???' her husband doesn't want to talk with her and do the dishes.

The thing is that men are blind usually in this instance.

And IMO, women require MUCH MORE (how do you quantify the work of EN meeting... I don't know, but from a 'guy' standpoint) require much MORE work to meet those needs than most guys do. Alot of that is because men don't UNDERSTAND what women really need, and alot of that is because women want 'their needs met without telling him' the old... If he doesn't know I am not going to tell him... cliche.

So what does a MAN have to do to meet his wife's needs... and how long before she would say they are met? As a man... who knows... the needs FEEL as though they are ever changing... and there is no way to really judge. The needs are also not merely met, for the most part, by ONLY US. If a wife's friend is on vacation, the need for 'conversation' might increase dramatically, but if she is in town, and has been over all day, it might be Household work today. Would 1 hour of Wife need meeting have the same effect of 1 hour of sex...??? I don't know, but I would be willing to say I doubt it. And it wouldn't be as clear cut for a guy either.

This is how it FEELS as a guy. It might not be the case from a woman's point of view... but I can tell you this is what it feels is going on from OUR point of view. What worked yesterday for us is not even on the menu today. But you wearing a red negligie will ALWAYS be 'just right'.

Amen....

Except for that last line. I think I prefer black

>The wife, for whatever reason initiated it, has diminished desire for SF with her husband. And feels like he should 'make me feel like it' by whatever means she feels HER ENs are not being met. Therefore, she thinks "I am NOT going to do something with MY body unless I feel like it." So she quits initiating, or even having sex altogether, and then wonders 'why???' her husband doesn't want to talk with her and do the dishes.


For me, as 'the wife,' the train of thought is more:
- Wife, for whatever reason, has diminished desire for SF

- Wife works like mad to try to get rid of all the silly distractions of daily life that lower libido (laundry rotting away in washing machine, unfed cats, and so on) so the turn-offs are less present. Lack of turn-offs helps libido, but stressing dampens it.

- Wife feels extremely guilty for not being in the mood, since wives are supposed to meet their man's SF needs no matter what and it's near criminal neglect not to. Guilt dampens libido.

- Wife feels anxious, because husband is angry and distant because of lack of SF needs. Husband is not great at taking suggestions for foreplay at the best of times, and wife has low hopes to get him to put in some extra lovin' to help her out of her funk. He's quite anxious himself about being able to please her, and really relies on the 'same old, same old' to feel secure enough to do ANYTHING sexual. Sadly, though, 'same old, same old' is not that great on a great night, and it's not going to do much to get wife aroused on a bad night. Besides, a good wife should just desire her hubby NO MATTER WHAT, and making a man feel inadequate in his sexin' skills is near verbal abuse (and honestly, there's no way that 'honey, I'm feeling kinda out of it today, how about trying [something that will get her in the mood]' will not register with this particular husband as pressure and 'what you usually do isn't good enough.') Anxiety dampens libido.

- Wife vacillates between just saying no (because she's tried getting herself in the mood without help from him before and has never been able to make it work, and knows the detrimental effects of bad sex - it's not a possessive 'You can't do anything unless I say so' feeling but more of a 'If I let you do this I will hate your guts for the rest of the night, and my control over my thoughts isn't absolute enough to prevent this') and saying yes to get him in a better mood, which will lead to physical pain for her, another mediocre to bad sex experience to not look forward to in the future, and possibly her hating his guts. All these things dampen libido.

So, it's not some childish 'you won't meet my needs, I won't meet yours' game for me. I still meet his other needs even if he doesn't meet mine, because I can do that for most needs without hating him for it.

Of course, his not meeting my ENs doesn't do my LB$ any favours, but my meeting his needs doesn't DRAIN it. Most of these things are rather fun, so it actually helps my LB$ to do these things for him.

Except for SF. Because he's so inflexible in how he needs those needs met, we're stuck with a bunch of things I cannot just do with a smile and a loving heart. If I'm into SF, it's the greatest thing ever (hey, it's my #3 need for a reason!), if I'm not, it hurts and I can hardly get through it without crying.

Tell me again why it's ME who has it easy, just because I'm the woman? He could do all sorts of simple things to help me meet his SF needs (like brush his teeth before, like going for it early in the evening instead of in the middle of the night, like not rejecting my attempts at verbal foreplay and flirting, like talking a bit beforehand (like we do when cooking or eating anyway), like stopping the cutesy baby language during foreplay and say something SEXY instead), but he refuses because it's too far out of his comfort zone and 'just not on his mind.'

I'm not even talking about his meeting my ENs, I'm just talking about him making it easier for me to meet his. And even that's already too much work.

I'm so glad to here you say that..."it might not be the case from a woman's point of view"...because you are right, it's not...in most cases. You are looking at this through a guy's point of view while your wife is looking at it from a girl's point of view. Neither view is right or wrong...they are just different because...guys and girls are just different.

Honestly, I think what a woman wants is so much easier than what a man wants because...well I'm a woman. I get it.

I do agree though that you men are not mind readers. And telling my H what I wanted was hard for me to do because I felt like if I had to tell him what to do, it would not mean as much. He would be doing it not because he wanted to but because I told him to. Once again, in my mind, my H was showing me that I wasn't important enough or special enough for him to take some time, be creative, really show me that after all these years, he really got me. I finally got to the point that I was just starved for my kind of attention that I let all that go and told him what I needed. It did not work out like I would have liked, but at least now instead of getting none of that, I get it a couple of times a year. Something is better than nothing, right.

Maybe sit her down and say...I want to meet your needs. I want to show you just how special you are to me, how lucky I am to have you in my life, but I'm basically clueless about how to do that. I need for you to tell me how I can show you that. I need to know what actions make you feel special. This may sound like I'm just asking you to tell me what to do, but really what I'm doing is asking you to help me get started. I promise I will do my best to meet those needs, but I also promise I am going to do my best to go above and beyond that and show you that I am putting some thought and time and lots of love into it. If my H approached me that way, I would probably jump him right then and there. And then if he continually showed me that what he said was true...I know I would fall in love with him all over again.

I hope this isn't too forward, and if it is feel free to ignore it. I'm assuming when it comes to SF, you would like some variety. The same position, the same negligee, the same day(s) of the week, the same time, the same room...all of that would start to get a little boring, right? Sure you might enjoy it, but the spark of it all would start to diminish. The build up, the thrill, the fun, the meaning, the connection...pretty soon it would become same ole, same ole. Would it also cause the thought that my partner seems to just be going through the motions...no personal enjoyment...a sense of obligation? That's how a W feels when her H seems to be hearing her but not listening with sincere interest...when he complains that a massage worked just fine last week but it doesn't do a thing this week...when she is the one that has to schedule the dates, get the babysitter, decide where to eat and what to do. Sure, he will go on the date, but once again, she had to initiate it and plan it.

Communication by both parties is so very important. Creativity is also just as important. A W should tell her H what she needs, giving specific examples, because the guy is not a mind reader. But to me, the H should not use that as a check list...never going beyond it...never putting some creativity into it...only doing the minimal. It is nice that he is trying to meet her needs, listened to her...but going beyond that, putting a little spin on it is what really gives it that special umph. And the same could be said about her H and his need for SF. Like in the case of the red negligee. You love it and she wears it because you love it, but after awhile, it starts to lose it's spark...until she wears it with thigh highs or comes out in a black one. Who knew you loved the color black so much! Use what each needs as a guideline and then expand it, jazz it up a bit.

Communicate, be creative and try to be understanding and knowledgeable of the other's point of view. JMO.

I hear you. My issue about this isn't before or during...it's after. Afterwards when I want to snuggle and cuddle and drift off to sleep I get "It's too hot" or "I can't get comfortable" or "I've got to get up early in the morning". I even got a "You're probably the reason I can't sleep good at night" a few weeks ago when I spooned up next to him. Can you guess what that makes me feel like? And can you guess how much it makes me look forward to the next time?

You know... this is what I think makes me so much like you, just in male form. My wife seems to be inhibited by my desire to please her. I think that my intense desire to be what she wants from me BOTHERS her. And it is something I simply do NOT understand. JUST LIKE YOUR HUSBAND...

I have done JUST what you have said above. And it had the OPPOSITE effect. It intimidated her, for whatever reason. And what you stated above is EXACTLY who I am, so I feel quashed. I don't feel as though I get what I want... but not only that, I feel that I can't be who I want to BE because it is too much. For instance, I was cleaning out my closet this morning, and I was getting rid of a shirt. It was a shirt, which I bought last year, just a blue polo. But she doesn't like it and I am relatively indifferent, so I thought... 'She doesn't like it... I really DON'T need it... and I am indifferent to it, so I might as well get rid of it, because she doesn't like it, and the last thing I want to do, is give her something to 'dislike' about me. Even if it is merely a goofy shirt.'

But when she saw it in the 'to go' pile, she commented that I had just bought it and should keep it. I said "You don't like it, and I just bought it because it was on sale and I thought I could use it playing golf.' She said, 'I don't play golf with you.' And I said, "Yes, but I have others I can wear, and there is no reason for me to keep a shirt which you don't like.' She kind of belabored that I should keep it, and I said "Why would I want to keep a shirt which you don't like and I don't really care about? Why would I want to interject any feeling of dislike, AT ALL, between us?" I think that upset her, and I really don't know why??????? She did the 'lock your lips and throw away the key' thing and walked away. She wasn't ANGRY or really UPSET... but she was disagreeing with me about it, and I just don't know why...

Bringiton would probably LOVE her husband burning the kilt. Here I am simply tossing a shirt... ONE OF MANY I own and one which has no meaning to me other than that my wife doesn't like it. I am getting rid of a shirt she doesn't like, and she is arguing with me about it. This is something I don't understand.

This is the same thing which I feel I face on a daily basis. I don't know HOW to love my wife, because when I do all the things 'WOMEN' want, I fail, because it isn't what my WIFE wants. I am hoping that my wife will be able to tell me what she wants soon. I hope that we can begin the MB principles, because this morning is just what I don't understand and what I feel I am constantly trying to work with, but to little avail.

Ladies... all I can say is that all that you feel with your husbands is almost EXACTLY what I feel with my wife. I love her, but feel like she fights me loving her. It is far and away beyond what I understand in any form or fashion.

Maybe that is the way it is for most men, but not for me. As far as I am concerned, same old same old beats none at all any day of the week.

I do think this is why it is easier for many women. Yes, a guy might want variety more than he wants monotony, but most of us still prefer monotony over going without. Whereas many women would rather the guy not even bother than do the same old thing yet again.

You admit in your post "the massage doesn't work this week". In a very dismissive way as if it doesn't work AT ALL. Whereas for guys sex of any kind always works somewhat.

Here is my analogy for today. Imagine a combination lock. If you enter the correct combination, it opens (fills love bank).

For most guys, there are 2 or 3 combinations, and one of those 3 always works. Sometimes the 2 digit combination works. Some days you have to dial in all 8 or 10 digits. But it is pretty much always one of the same 3 combinations, and if you forget the combinations your husband is happy to tell you which one works today.

Many women have locks where the combination changes every day. Every night, your wife tells you the next day's combination. Some days it is 2 digits. Some days it is 124 digits. But it is never the same combination as the day before. You are not allowed to write it down. And she will not repeat the combination (after all, if you loved her you would concentrate so hard when she tells you the combination it should be easy to remember all 124 digits).

I am sure there are guys who have locks with long combinations that change frequently. But I am also sure that most guys have locks with short combinations that remain unchanged for long periods. Whereas most women's combinations are longer and change more frequently.

If you cannot see that "take some time, be creative, really show me that after all these years, he really got me" is more complicated than "get naked and say yes", then we can agree to disagree.

Frustrating isn't it?

I've asked my H what I can do to meet his needs, make his life easier and happier. The only one he was willing to answer was SF 2 or 3 times a week. The rest was "I don't know" or "I'll have to think about it and get back to you" and when asked again "I don't know."

Knowing my H and his past, and since he will not talk to me about it, I have come up with my own conclusion as to why he is this way...DJ I know but I'm trying my darnedest to understand him. And me understanding him, helps me be more understanding. Maybe I am fooling myself as to his reasons, but my assumptions have certainly softened my heart towards him.

Your W sounds resentful toward you for trying to meet her needs...based on your conversation regarding the shirt. Is this how similar conversations go?

I was only trying to relate the woman's point of view based on the number of men, alot of them here, who have said obligation sex is not what they want. And to me just saying yes and getting naked without some time, creativity and showing my H that after all this time I really get him in bed basically is obligation sex...at least to me.

Also, to me, SF is more complicated than "get naked and say yes" because my heart and head are involved.

So I guess, we will have to agree to disagree.

So let me understand this. You asked him what he wanted. He said "sex". And then you said the equivalent of "I mean, besides sex?" As if it were impossible that sex was in fact pretty much all he wanted?

I can understand your surprise. After all, you probably have a list in your mind of 100 things that would make your life easier and happier, and you can't believe that his list is so short. So you assume he is being dismissive with you. That he isn't taking your question seriously. And you feel insulted by his disregard of your earnest interest in his welfare.

Again we are faced with the reality that many women cannot fathom how simple men truly are. When faced with the reality "all I want is food, sleep and sex", many women recoil in horror that her husband is not deeper, more mature, and more complicated than that.

Now let me let you in on a little secret. Your husband knows exactly what else he wants from you. He just won't tell you. Because he knows it will never happen. And he doesn't want either of you to get upset. So he keeps it a secret. So what, you may ask, is the secret?

What he wants most of all is for you to be less complicated. Not to have quite such a long list of desires. And not to have the list and the priority of individual items on the list change so rapidly.

Because he is tired of being a failure. And he is tired of having to keep up with so many changes. And he is tired of wanting to show his love in ways you appreciate and constantly getting back the message (sometime spoken, sometimes not), that he missed the mark ever so slightly and thus his effort are for naught. He is tired of being patted on the head with either condescension or exasperation and told "I'm sure you'll do better next time".

And yes, I know you can't help being that way. You are female. And every female you know is that way. And you can't imagine being any other way (which is why you can't imagine that your husband might actually BE another way).

Which is why your husband gets frustrated when you ask him what he wants. Because it is a trick question. Like asking whether these pants are flattering. And he knows he can't win. So he hates being asked to play the game.

CFIO, so she doesn't want you to throw away the shirt. You have a choice, you can DJ her about it, She shouldn't give you a hard time, or you can make a stab at negotiation, "What would make you enthusiastic about me getting rid of this shirt? If I agree not to buy another one for three months, would that make you enthusiastic?" I think then you get to the bottom if it. "No, I'm concerned about how much we're spending. I would be enthusiastic if you agree not to buy another one for two years, how long this one would have lasted if you didn't get rid of it now." Then either you like that idea, or say, "No, I want a different shirt sooner than that. How about if I make a special dinner here for you instead of taking you to Thai next Thursday and then we'll save more than enough for me to get the shirt I want?" Then she'll probably like that idea, and you two will have an agreement you're both enthusiastic about. Or you two may come up with some totally differnt thing. But either way, you are replaceing the old DJ pattern with a new one, negotiation.

That's the part I don't like about Dr. Laura's stuff. She's about telling folks what she thinks they should be enthusiastic about, instead of encouraging them to find what makes them enthusiastic.

But Hold, it's not for naught. Women know all the ways the guys are making LB$ withdrawals every day, and they're trying to share them, so they can work together to create a more compatible lifestyle. It's all stuff that was effortless to him before, but he didn't know it was important to her, so he did different things, which we all do over time. It's okay, a point in time. The Ws probably do hundreds of things the way their men like them every hour, and then get a few obvious ones way wrong. The couple can share this, and find what makes them enthusiastic about trying things they both like.

Ears, your post proves my point. You say the guys are doing many LBs, and their wives are trying to help them by pointing out all the LBs. But that is my point (and the other guys'). There are so many things you have to get right and so many ways to go wrong that it is hard for a guy to keep track. Whereas for woman there are fewer ways to mess up and even if she does, as long as she has sex with him regularly he is likely to overlook her transgressions.


Maybe that it how it is for most people. My marriage is certainly not an example to learn from in either direction.

My experience is that the Ws are doing hundreds of things that the guy doesn't care one whit about, and then they get the few obvious ones that he does care about wrong, and then they can't figure out why he isn't thrilled to do hundreds of things correctly for them.

Bottom line: most women can't possibly be doing hundreds of things for their men every hour (or day, or week), because there aren't 100 things the guy cares about to begin with.

Whereas the woman can easily imagine that she is doing hundreds of things for her man, because there ARE hundreds of things she cares about.

To me, the hard part of being a woman is not being asked to do the hundreds of things your man expects of you. It is training yourself NOT to do the hundreds of things he doesn't care about so you have the time and energy left to do the few things he does care about.

Hammer. Nail. Head.

My situation is not quite the same as yours but the circumstances are. The stressing. The anxiety. The guilt. And then the resentment afterwards.

Thank you for posting this. It's probably still not easy for any guy to read it and say A-HA, I get it!, but maybe they will. I can't tell you how many times the "guilt" card comes up when discussing this with other women.

So you admit sex isn't the only thing he wants! LOL!!!


I asked because I sincerely wanted to know what I could do to help him. If all I have to do is provide SF when he wants it then I can drop making dinner, paying the bills, encouraging him to play golf, letting him sleep in on the weekends even though we both work all week, taking the kids to school, activities, dr's appts, scheduling his dr appts, etc. Wow...my life just got a ton easier...and I guess his too since all he wants from me is SF.


Actually it's about 10.



Then you don't know me very well. Oh that's right...you don't.


Sounds like a whole lot of hate in that paragraph.

You know it truly amazes me that your whole post sounds to me that I am the problem. That I am the one who needs to change. That my views are too difficult and just plain wrong. If I will just provide SF, life will be hunky dorry for everyone. And boy does that sound very one-sided to me.

But for what it is worth, and in case you havent read my previous posts, I've stopped expecting my H to meet my needs. I've focused my thinking on meeting his needs. And although the only one he will openly share with me is SF, which I have stepped up to the plate for if I do say so myself, I try very hard to watch his reactions to the things I do. When it is a positive reaction, I make a note of it and do my best to continue doing it. I want to see him happy and I am doing my best to help that. I'm sorry if you aren't getting the same thing.


I don't know...I've decided to quit b*tchen about it and see what I can do about it. I've accepted we view things differently and I'm okay with that. Now, I just want to make things better where I can and quit focusing on who is right and who is wrong...because neither of us are.

Nah ruby... it is just his specific and focused perception of his situation translated to a view of women in general. This has turned into alot of 'guy venting' so take it for what its worth. I do think there is some kernal of truth, at least as far as from the GUYS point of view, in what things seem like. If you can take that for what it is... then we can do business.

I think that the trouble with all of us posting here... is that we, the actual people here doing the reading and posting the thoughts, are MUCH MORE SIMILAR despite our gender, than we are different. So when you say "this and that" the other gender posting here IS doing this and that, but to our spouses it feels as though it is falling on deaf/blind ears, then we become frustrated. And we focus our frustration on the 'gender' which we feel is unresponsive, generalizing the issues, probably too far, but that is where we have to realize that this is NOT a personal attack, it is a generalized VENT of frustration.

If the guys here and the ladies here were 'married' to each other... we wouldn't be here, because by basic beliefs and character, we would be dealing with the problems in a mutually beneficial way. You ladies would be feeling the affection because we, the men here, understand that is important... and you would be choosing between the black and red teddy... or maybe Saran Wrap...

And vice versa.

Like I've said, I don't think either points of view are right or wrong. They are just different. And if we want to make this work, then we have to accept that and try our best to see the other's point of view...learn from it and let it help us help our marriages instead of complaining about it as if one side is right and the other wrong. It is what it is...deal with it or move on.