And you knew that, Jim. I don't believe H knows if I'm worth it. That is what he is debating, trying to determine. I'm working like a hamster on a wheel here, expending all energy and thoughtfulness I know to show him I'm worth it. I hope someday to make it out of the cage.

So it takes two. As everyone here on MB knows.

You made me tear up as well.

I know I love H. He doesn't know if he loves me. He has said it one time since D-day, and that was while tipsy and in the throes of SF. Otherwise he states, "I loved you."

I did and I am. What if H isn't willing?

So you participated too. H wants me to be safe. He wants to make sure I'm okay and won't do something stupid like hurt myself. (Not even part of my thinking, as I've told him many times.) But once I've proven I'm okay, he may be gone. Kind of a catch-22, you know? Be okay so H will fall back in love with me, even though being okay may be the sign for H that it's time to go.

But it's not a game. I won't pretend NOT to be okay to keep H around. That's not my style.

I know the invitation is open. Thank you and her.

Thank you, Jim. (Got any tissue?)

From your typing fingers to God's ears.

Our Hs are simpatico in this -- no outside help needed nor wanted.

Check.

Check.

Trying.

How about a half-marathon?

Friday night:

I have no recollection as to how it even came up, but as we turned off the TV to go upstairs, H said, "You know, I have more respect for (girl in high school who was a well-known easy person) than I used to. At least she didn't hide that she was a sl*t. She liked sex, she knew it, and didn't care who knew she was a sl*t. You, on the otherhand, were a sl*t but didn't want anyone to know it." I looked at him dumbfounded and said, "How can you compare (HS girl) with me? I cheated on you, yes, but I am not a sl*t." H said, "No. You are. You just lied about it." I stood up and said, "I am not like her, sleeping with anything and everything." (BTW, H was her next-door neighbor in an apartment building just out of high school and saw and heard the proof that HS girl did have many different partners often.) H continued that he thought more of her than me. I told him that he knew how I was going to respond when he called me names so I was leaving. I went to bed.

H came to the bedroom and said, "I'm sorry I said that, but even you said you were a sl*t when you explained your pre-M affair." (Okay... Sidebar. You don't say I'm sorry "but" because that nullifies the previous apologetic words. I'll save that for another post.) I said, "I said I felt like one because I felt dirty about what I did, having sex with I guy I didn't love while committed to you." I gave my perspective on my horrible behavior again. I said I believe that our definitions of sl*t are different, then. I was a cheater yes, but was not like HS girl. I should have just agreed with him. I know now I should have at least handled it differently because it went downhill from there.

I can't quote the entire conversation, but I can tell you it was full of DJs (from H), moments of AO (mostly H but also from me), and moments of H mocking me and my tears. He was asking me questions, I would begin to answer, he would interupt me, and then tell me what my answer really was. After about 15 minutes, I got up to leave the room. H sat up and said, "You can't tell me how I'm supposed to feel and what I'm supposed to think. I don't know how to deal with this." The thing is, I didn't think I was telling him how to think or feel. I was telling him how I feel or felt and H was coming back at me with who and what I really am and what I really supposedly felt back when I was cheating. Because my feelings didn't jive with what he said I was feeling, I believe he saw it as me telling him what to think. Not sure if that makes any sense, but because I wasn't agreeing with what he was telling me about me -- not his feelings about me or about his perspective of me but the supposed reality of me -- I guess he saw it as me trying to change his mind. So I stayed. I backed down and decided to put up with the DJs.

For about another 10 minutes.

He asked me a question. I answered it. He didn't like my answer so asked me why I answered that way. It was the truth so I answered it the same way again. His AO came. I assured him I was telling the truth and he started mocking me. I tried to answer and he sarcastically interupted me. My back was to him. I yelled "Don't interupt me!" He was quiet so I started to talk again and he did it again. I screamed, "Don't interupt me!" He paused. I started to talk again and he did it again so I got up and left. I slept in our DD's bed as she was away for the night. I woke at 3 and went back to our bed.

Saturday morning:

I apologized to H for yelling at him the night before.

We talked quite calmly, for probably 2.5 hours or so. Some new, some rehashed topics:

* H doesn't trust me. He doesn't hang out with liars and can't see how he can stay with me.
* H doesn't believe there has "only" been the two betrayals. (Two is the truth.)
* H believes I shared with FOM things about H that may have been unfavorable to H. (I shared feelings about H with FOM.)
* H is staying for the kids right now.
* H wants to love me, but he doesn't.
* H is not going to talk with anyone or do anything to force himself to try to love me again.
* H is going to process this his way and nothing I can say or do (his words) is going to change that.
* H wishes I was thin again. (I'm of average size -- 8 -- but I am heavier since D-day. I'm also trying to excercise again, 4 times in last week.)
* H used to think I was a smart person. My decision to have an affair changes that.
* H does not want access to my passwords or accounts of any kind. He believes that if I want to cheat on him or if someone else wants to reach me, I or they can always find a way. He says he does not want to be responsible for monitoring me. (I've handed him all of my info on paper and he's given it back, acting insulted and saying he does not want it.) He said if he ever wants to get into my stuff, he will ask me for access.
* I again explained why I betrayed him.
* I told H I understand what I did that made me vulnerable both emotionall and physically.
* I assured H that I will not put myself in situations where I will be tested but if for any reasons my boundaries are, I will tell H so we can work together to protect us.
* H notices all the changes I've made. He really appreciates it and "really likes the new L4". (So he has noticed. Yay!)
* H knows I hated him last year because you can't have an affair without hating your spouse. (I have never hated H.)
* H wishes we had never married.
* H wishes I would have divorced him last year.
* H said he has been failed by many who have mattered in his life, and now that includes me. He was counting on me and now he knows that he can't count on anyone but himself. He is very disappointed how I did this to him.
* H still doesn't know what he wants in regards to our M.
* H is still hurting and knows I want to help him. He doesn't know how I can.

We ended the conversation with wonderful SF and in each others arms. H left for our hometown about an hour later to spend the night hanging with his brothers.

Sunday night:

I was wiped out. Headed to bed at 9:30. H couldn't find a special six-pence coin. I didn't even know where he kept it, let alone it might be missing. He accused our daughter then our DS's friend who was here last week. That put him in a bad mood.

Why is there a bottle of lotion on the floor? Kids left it there. Why did they have it in the TV room? They were putting lotion on their hands and feet. Isn't that something you do in the bathroom? Yes, but not just the bathroom. I put lotion from my purse on in the car, at church, at random places. And we have bottles of lotion in my office, H's office, in the kitchen... H says, "So we can bring lotion out to the TV room, slather it all over our bodies, rub each other in front of our kids, and not think it's a big deal? Did your parents do this?" Huh? How did we get from kids putting lotion on their hands to us being graphically sexual in front of DS and DD? But this is how H works. His analogies can go from ants to Antarctica in seconds.

I'll spare the details. It got to where I just looked at him and agreed. I felt like I was being brow-beat. He complained about the kids cleaning up after themselves, clothing, bedtimes, peoples' private belongings, playdates... My input seemed invalid. He acted like he was listening but I don't think he was based on his responses. And I tired of the interuptions. I felt like it was going to have to end up his way and I didn't have the energy so I stopped participating. When he'd ask if I agreed, I politely answered, "Sure."

Earlier H had thanked me for watching the kids for the two days. I felt like that appreciation was out the window all because of a coin missing, lotion left out, and a fort still in the livingroom. He didn't seem to see how orderly everything else was and all that got done while he was away.

So, I'm obviously still trying to balance between holding boundaries and acquiescing to keep the peace.

As for today, I made a spontaneous SF request at noon which he agreed to. It was fun. And we IMed about it later. So I don't know what to think, especially when he tells me not to let our SF give me false hope.

There is my blow by blow of the last 4 days.

You're welcome. And I'm hungry.

L4,
I'm sorry your weekend was so upsetting.

Hi L4! A few thoughts really fast for you. These knock down, drag out, marathon talks where things are hashed and re-hashed 45 times really seem to be wearing on you. And him. I can't imagine he feels much better after them either. It seems he lets his emotions take over at the time, and then later feels bad (hence his apologizing).

I guess after awhile (and I'm not sure if you are at this point yet or not, but its something to think about)... I realized that the charade of re-hashing things wasn't helpful to anyone involved. Pretty much, we'd just get in little "arguments" about the same things, over and over and over... same things its seems you are arguing about over and over (not believing on details... I would insist... not trusting... not knowing if it is worth staying, etc etc).

I guess at some point, i realized that until something "changed" re-hashing the same things over and over were hurtful to the M also. He got upset, I got upset... etc. Its again a fine line between letting him vent... and also realizing that constant venting really takes away from that "fun time" you are trying to foster-- to lure him back to you. If you spend all your time re-hashing no fun stuff, there's nothing for him to "want" to come home to, ya know?

I stopped arguing with H. He had several DJ's just like yours did. When my H busted them out, I literally ignored him. Didn't respond at all. I used to "argue" back with him, like you do, "that's not who I am anymore" or "that's not true" or "that's not how I felt/feel" etc. I figured I had told him these things about 24563456 times, if he didn't hear me the first 24563456, he wasn't going to hear me now. So I just let him vent, and didn't respond at all. You can't have a knock-down, drag out, 3 hour conversation if I'm not responding! I would listen, but I wouldn't "argue" with him to further the conversation. If it crossed into abusive (name calling, AO's, etc), I would leave the room. I think you are doing a good job with your boundaries. It seems to be slowly sinking in with him... it will take time.

Anyways, at this point I think that unless there's something new to re-hash... it might be time to start thinking about trying to put that stuff away... and focusing on the fun/bonding stuff. You don't have to TELL HIM you are putting it away. But try to avoid the 2.5 hour knock down drag out convos that really don't accomplish ANYTHING. I did this by simply coming up with something else that just "had" to be done once we started down that SAME OL' road. The laundry... the kids need fed... dinner needs to be made... I have to get in the shower... I have to read something for work... etc. If you feel there's nothing new to discuss, getting him upset and you upset for a 2.5 hour convo probably isn't helping on either side.

He seems like a man that needs to process on his own, and when it gets overwhelming, he takes it out on you... and then feels guilty later that he took it out on you... which is confusing in and of itself to him. So I thought of it as stopping my H before he had something to feel guilty about in the first place (but WITHOUT actually TELLING him any of that was my thought process).

So, start thinking about how or when you might want to try to wind down the 2.5 hour convos. I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about it... but maybe try to lessen them a bit, fill that time with fun, bonding things instead.

And as a little more "this is all normal", I wanted to let you know which of the below in your "re-hash" H has said to me...



CHECK


My H believes there was a lot more to my A than I've told him also. I think he still does, to this day. I can't convince him.


check... and also that I shared those unfavorable things with my co-workers too.


I got he was staying until he "figured out what he wanted to do next".

I got "I feel like you are just a friend anymore, the passion isn't there, I only love you as a friend"



Yep, I love the "I am not going to force myself"... my H said the same exact thing over and over and over and over to me...


Check.


HA! Got this one too! Only, I was even more insulted because a month after I moved home, I broke my arm (both forearm bones), pretty badly, and was in a cast for a total of 10 weeks. And then physical therapy. Thru all of that, I sat on the couch a lot and gained ~10 lbs. Not a ton, but enough that he said he thought I was "chubby".


Check. Oh, and it extends to everyone in my field now too. Not just me. We are all stupid Wh0res (my H didn't use sl*t... he called me a wh0re... at one point, during one of his AOs I completely lost it with an AO of my own after he called me a wh0re again. I told him that he was to NEVER call me that name again or I couldn't live with him. It was a pretty big AO. But I had had enough of the wh0re bit. I can handle other names, but not that one. Not that I suggest going this route, but he hasn't called me it, even once, even during AO's, since. That was probably about 9 months ago...


I gave my H all of my passwords too, even though he didn't ask. Although I know he uses them, and he didn't respond to it the way that your H did. Although, my H has also told me what yours did... about "being able to find a way" if I wanted to.



This is great! And my H would pepper in comments here and there that he had noticed things too. That's great


check, check, check.... Are you sure we aren't married to the same person?!



Hmmm... maybe this is where the similar temperament comes from. My H feels the same way about many people in his life... his parents in particular. Hmmm... something to think about...



Heard this over and over and over for about a year....


Yep. Or H would tell me "there's nothing you can do to help me".


Its so confusing, isn't it??? We would do the same thing. Arrrgg!!

Try to plan more "date nights". Make them lots of fun. Comedy clubs are always a good bet... get him laughing and get some fun in. Plus, you have to shut up and listen to the comedian, so no chance of a fight! Or a comedy movie.

Or... once I planned an evening for H and I where we went to Dave and Busters (kinda like an adult Chucky Cheese?)... and I put on note cards something that H could "earn" (some of them were racy, some of them were just things like cooking his favorite dinner, or doing a chore for him, etc etc....). For every game he beat me at at Dave and Busters (think air hockey and other random games like that), he got to pick a card (without seeing what they said). I had about 20. Once he earned a 4th one, he had to pick one in his hand to get rid of tho... (so he could only keep 3 at all times). The "goal" was to earn all 20 cards so that he could pick his very favorite 3 to keep.

It was a BLAST. We had so much fun (and this was in the middle of when he was really, really bad). And it put us on a "high" for a day or two (then it came crashing down again... but, the goal is to work as many of those "highs" in as you can and eliminate the lows slowly).

Do you think he'd like something like that?


, L4!

E.

Wow. Nothing like a rollercoaster to make you want to throw up, huh?

I know you don't feel this way, especially when it is happening or what is being said, but your H is talking to you, or at you, so try hard to see the blessing in that. Trust me, it would make you even crazier, more paranoid, more stressed, more worried if he wasn't saying anything at all.

Next time you guys have a "talk" like that, remember you can acknowledge what he is saying without agreeing with him. When he says "I know..., You did..." whatever, say back to him that you can understand why he felt that way or feels that way or thinks that way.

As for the name calling, tell him again that you can see why he thinks that way of you because of your past actions but calling you names is not helping either of you and that you will leave the room. Then if he does it again, tell him you are so sorry for hurting him and want to talk to him about this and help him, but you need to leave the room because of the name calling. And just ignore his parting remarks..."well you are."

And I'm sure you know this, but a lot of his pushing...like the whole lotion thing...is because he is so hurt and angry and confused and lost and feels hopeless. Crazy conversations, like the lotion thing, is him letting this out. Try a simple response like "No that would not be appropriate" and see how he reacts to that.

Thanks V, E, and RD. (Hey! That rhymes!)

I'm internalizing. So much fantastic direction over these months and especially in the last few weeks. I think I need to write out a new plan. A more complete, specific plan now that I'm more into this. I can memorize it. Hold strong to it. And remind myself over and over why I'm doing this. Why I want my H and my M. Why I can do this. And if it doesn't work out, that I can be okay. That it's up to me. I realize this is kind of a long mantra but like everything else in my life, I'm working on it.

So do you ever have those days when you don't even want to think about anything? Where you don't want to process? You don't want to analyze? You don't want to have to understand, figure it out, zig, or zag? Don't want to have to respond? Where you just want to be?

Yes, if H needs me, I'm here and I let him know every day that I'm here. And that I need him.

But today I feel like getting dressed, going out with a girlfriend, having lunch and a glass of wine, laughing, coming home and watching mindless TV like a Housewives of OC marathon, eating popcorn, taking a warm bath, and then ending it all with a great round of SF with a smiling H.

Is that too selfish of me?

(And yes if you missed it, I am still in my PJs at noon. For the record my H is too. The luxeries of working from home. I'll be getting dressed in a sec.)

Some days I want to not have to think...

This is one of them.

Hope y'all are having whatever kind of day you want to have.

Yes. And date nights of any kind. I'm making notes of your other suggestions too, E. Thanks.

It does rhyme, cool
I LOVE staying in my PJs. I buy the cutest comfy bottoms, sit at the hip style, and pair them with string camasole tops. Cute and sexy.
Have a happy day L4

L4,

Just sending you best wishes. Looks like your H has decided to open up a bit. I'm sorry both of you are hurting so much. I think it is progress that he recognizes, or acknowledges, that you cannot change what has happened. There are stages to grieving and anger is a real one.

Does your H have a physical outlet for his anger? I like martial arts for mine and I can tell you there were days when I was filled with such rage that I could barely control myself. Just a couple of hours of getting beaten on and doing some beating myself really helped me. It put me in a place where I could use my thinking part of my brain instead of the angry monkey part.

Gabe

He doesn't.

He goes in short spurts of physical fitness. He's one of these people who is slender (though he's getting a little pooch now in his middle-age -- wink) and can control his food intake so he has never had a weight problem. He skis, golfs, likes to be outdoors boating and camping, and will do yard work, but time in the gym hasn't been a constant of any kind. Shortly after I confessed, he went out and bought a press bench thingy and some weights and went at it for about two weeks. It's been sitting in our garage unused for almost three months now.

I wish he would talk with someone. I wish he would work-out. I wish he would read. I wish he would journal. I wish he would do MB... But I can't make him. I can be here for him, listen to him, help him as best I can and hope I don't blow it. (That's a lot of pressure for lil' ol' me!) I've grabbed my bootstraps, I'm cowgirling up as the Flints would say, and I'm ready for the marathon. (How many cliches can one put in a single sentence?)

Hopefully we'll make it and prayerfully we'll do so and still be together on the other side.

Hi Looking4!

Hope things are going a little better today than over the weekend! 'bout got to don't they?

The quote of your husband's laundry list of complaints above about you is common. He is trying to justify his treatment of you and thoughts of divorce. He is also trying to spread the pain he feels around.

It could actually be a very valuable list.

There are some that can be done of course and some that are out of your hands.

My wife and I did something that was very helpful in regaining trust.

We went to the jewelry store and purchased a simple gold band. She removed her wedding ring that we felt no longer meant what it should and she wears the simple gold band. It means FAR MORE that that other ring ever did.

On the inside of the band we had engraved PRH 7/3/2006. It stands for the Policy of Radical Honesty with our d-day on it. Whenever I ask her if something is indeed the truth she proudly points to her her ring and tells me whatever she needs to say and reminds me proudly that NOT ONCE since that date has she EVER lied to me.

If anyone asked what happened to the old ring she told them that she had broken it and needed a new one...

Which is of course more true than most people will ever know...

She keeps the old ring and someday we may have it made into a new one.

Or maybe not.

I like the one she has now because of what it means.

The other thing that we did is we both signed a pledge to each other.

The pledge read that we will ALWAYS tell the truth to each other without fail. NO OMISSIONS OR LIES. We promise each other that EVERYTHING disclosed will be protected under the policy of radical honesty and will not be used as a reason to divorce. It also includes a signed agreement for submission to a polygraph if either of us requests.

Your husband needs to look at the marriage as new.

This is the way WE decided to make it a visual reminder that the marriage is indeed new.

It gave us a place to start from.

Thinking about you...



God bless.

Jim

Goodness, Jim. Were you listening in on H and me Saturday morning? Because we talked about his wedding ring. Didn't include it on the list of topics we covered above and frankly I didn't remember it until just now.

H kicked me out D-day. I returned three days later. H had taken everything that he thought hypocritical of our marriage and stacked it in my office -- including our framed wedding picture, a poem that was read on our wedding day, a framed writing of 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, a pewter cross I had bought, and more. Included among the many items was his wedding ring. I put it in my jewelry box for safe keeping. (I'm still wearing mine.)

Last Saturday I told him I am giving his ring back to him. I said he can wear it, keep it, throw it away, hide it, or whatever he wants, but I want him to have it and be responsible for it. Seeing it every day in my box reminds me that he doesn't want to wear it. I'd rather he take it.

H refused. He lamented about how rings aparently mean nothing anyway so what does it matter, and went on and on about that. (I didn't respond to that.) I suggested a couple of times that I'd like to get him a new one. Or maybe we get new rings for both of us. He said no. He said he may ask for his back some day or maybe never. But he's not ready to have it in his possession. I said that I will probably hide it then as it reminds me of how I've failed him and I want to instead be reminded of how I've changed for him.

While I understand why he doesn't want to wear a ring, it still makes me sad.

Your story and the proven commitment that you and Mrs. Flint have made to each other is so beautiful. You both are such an inspriation. God bless you.

L4:

Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you.

You have come a long way.

I would recommend this:

Put a ribbon through the ring. Also put a note with it, also in the ribbon. Hang the ring and the note someplce where he can see it. Everyday. Next to the shaving mirror. Next to his ties. Next to ?

Leave a message that says:

DH:

You removed this ring on the day that the truth was revealed.
From that truth, we can build a better marriage then has ever existed for us. You wearing this ring, at some point, means that WE are making progress.

I love you.
I'm here for you
It can be great again.

L4

I wish I would have thought about this before our big ring talk last Saturday, LG. I think if I did this he'd get angry since he was very clear about how he felt about me keeping it for now. Perahps in a few weeks after some time has passed. I'll see how it feels later.

And I didn't think you were ignoring me. I know people read and don't post. And even if you were ignoring me, that's your perogative, right? I can't control other people.

See?... I'm learning.

H is at a church meeting tonight. This is good.

A couple of months ago he was going to resign from Session (our version of a church's council) because he felt he couldn't be associated with the church while going through this. Thought church-goers were hypocrits. He didn't resign afterall but in fact has accepted a committee chairperson post. He still hasn't counseled with our pastor, but I see this as a positive step.

Plus in the past, sometimes he and Pastor have gone out for a beer after the monthly meeting, so maybe this will allow for that opportunity which would lead to talking? Maybe?

Signing off as hopeful...

G'night.

L4,
That is good. Tiny steps lead to big steps. Patience.

P.S. JF and LG, I love the story and thought of the rings.

Take care.

Things have been going pretty well. I know it's a roller coaster and I like that H and I seem to be going back up again.

H learned yesterday that he has to go to Germany on business the week of March 9. This change affects our annual week-long vacation to a ski resort next week, cutting it short by a few days. So now I'm not going. I have work I need to do early in the week so H is taking DS7 up for a few days while DD5 stays here with me. I'm bummed as I'll miss my two guys, but it's okay. And now I can hopefully meet Lil and Flick when they come to town.

I got a short-term consulting job. It's for a company that does some work with my old company so I will have long-distance work contact with people who know FOM but who don't know of the PA. (FOM is long gone from the old company.) I was skeptical about taking it, but H says he's fine with it and encouraged me to do so. The money is way more than I ever thought I should make and it could be a great launching pad if I decide to get into consulting on a regular basis. I've been at it three days and I am enjoying making my own hours and controlling my work flow.

H and I have been having some fun this week. Probably helps that the kids are back in school after last week's winter break. When they're around while H is working it stresses him out. Me too, at times. We've reclaimed the house a few times in a few different ways. And H seems to be more relaxed.

Last night I headed upstairs at 11pm and our front door was slightly ajar. I was nervous and went back down to get my H. He said he had been going in and out so he might have just left it open. I still made him come with me up the stairs. Figured two of us were better than just me if I had to take someone out. ;-) (Yes. In reality I was a bit scared and I wanted my man to protect me.)

I'm baby-sitting my cousin's kids tonight so he and his wife can go out. I hope I get H tomorrow night to myself before he leaves Sunday morning. He's been working so much. He didn't come to bed last night until 1am this morning.

Anyway, we're otherwise going along. I'm being helpful, happy, new, naughty, domestic, fun, and hopeful. No recent AOs, DJs, or IBs to report and my LB is on the positive side. I hope H's is too.

I hope everyone enjoys a great weekend.

Cheers!