Sorry ruby. You are right. A whole lot of hate inside me. too often it spills out into my posts. I apologize for spilling some on you.


Exactly. I can't believe how many posts I read about husbands who place ridiculous demands for a spotlessly clean house, bountiful dinner on the table at a certain time, young children who don't misbehave, etc. Let alone the guys who expect their wives to have sex with them daily despite the guy making no effort to make it good for her and actively resisting being educated as to what would be more enjoyable for her. I would sacrifice body parts for my wife to tell me what would make sex better for her, but she would rather sacrifice body parts than talk about sex.

As you say, the people who stay here for any length of time at least show willingness to try new things to make their marriage better. If our spouses felt the same way, we probably wouldn't be here. And we wouldn't have such a skewed view of what the "other side" was like.

Saran Wrap, eh? Hmmmm..... might have to give that one a try - I'll let you know if it's a thumbs up or down from my H. LOL!

I've been lurking on this post for days - all the back and forth, and I see both sides. The original post, and the article, were VERY informative for me, and have helped me change my POV.

Thanks, CFIO....

Okay, I just read the article that started the thread. I think it is a good article, and probably a good book - though I've not read the book. It seems to be written from the perspective of a woman who has spent some time studying the importance of what sex means to men, as a general rule - obviously there are exceptions as was mentioned.

One of the most important points that I felt was made is for women to be emotionally involved during SF. "Duty sex", while it may help to relieve the physical tension men feel for release, doesn't fulfill our EN's that get met through SF. I think that last point I just made is an important differentiator that many women don't necessarily understand because we're built differently - but I'm completely willing to be wrong on this point and if I am, I'd love to hear opinions from the women here!

For men, as the article indicates, SF isn't just about meeting our SF EN, it really does meet other EN's. Per the article, "I feel rejected, ineligible, insignificant, lonely, isolated, and abandoned as a result." So, it would seem that meeting a man's need for SF indeed meets a LOT more than just his SF need. I know for myself, when W and I enjoy good SF, I personally feel more powerful, significant, loved, intimate, connected, capable, confident, intelligent, willing, jovial, contented, and energized. Basically, I feel like I can face the world again - with all of the aforementioned abilities in my back pocket. All from SF. I get my EN's for affection, conversation, being open and honest, and admiration all met in some form or fashion within the context of the SF EN.

For women, if my understanding is correct, SF does not meet the wide-ranging EN's that SF does for a man, which is not to say that SF isn't just as important for women, but it does show men and women aren't the same. Even recent brain scan studies performed indicate these assumptions are accurate. Brain scans performed on women indicate that the same brain chemicals that wash over the brain during SF are also released, though in smaller quantities, when women are engaged with men in conversation. The same brain scans performed on men indicate that conversation does not produce the same result within the brain as compared to brain scans during SF. These studies demonstrate what MB teaches us, that men typical meet women's EN's for conversation and affection and women in turn meet men's EN's for SF and RC. What it helped me to understand is that conversation with my W gives her the opportunity to feel connected to me and can encourage her to consider meeting my EN for SF willingly. Around my house, domestic support also goes a long way toward encouraging my W to meet my SF EN as well.

While I could be wrong, I think this is what HOLD in his recent post was attempting to say when he spoke about how women don't understand because they are women. Men tend to approach women from a man's perspective - which is that if we can just have good SF on a consistent basis - which is tied very closely to our core identities as men as the article indicates - then a great many our of life's problems become either resolved or moot or certainly put into a much better perspective at the very least. Specific to HOLD's example of the 100 things - for men, that list of 100 things looks a lot more plausible and we feel a lot more capable and confident that those 100 items on that list are possible. Does that make sense?

I think women tend to approach men from a women's perspective - which is that while SF can be really nice, that the big to-do lists - both the EN to-do list for the man in their life as well as the physical to-do list - are still there when we're done having SF, and the fact that we had SF doesn't really change anything on these lists outside of SF being checked off of the to-do list for today - nor does it really help to resolve the other items on these lists. I know I'm probably doing a bad job of portraying how women feel here - but I'm hoping everyone gets the point I'm trying to make.

Basically, the window through which men view the rest of the world is intimately tied to our sex lives. When we have great sex lives the window is squeeky clean and we tend to see a lot more and be more effective in dealing with life's problems. But when our sex life is less than ideal, the window gets dirty and we tend not to see as well and we're generally less effective in dealing with life's problems. If our sex life is just downright dismal for whatever reason, then the window gets so dirty that we can hardly see through it at all, and the lense through which we view the world becomes very depressing, and depression oftentimes can set in at which point we become unable to effectively deal with life's problems in any constructive manner. Ladies, perhaps most importantly, this is the same window through which we see you.

In the 15 years I've been in my M, our SF has run the gamut, from non-existent to excellent, and my view of the world and my ability to cope with the problems I'm faced with each day line up pretty well with what this article has to say.

Hitchhiker,

That was a great post you put together.

But if men put all this into SF, then what happens after they age? I realize there are some drugs out there but they only work for some and then only for awhile. Sooner or later it is going to take more time and trouble to meet this need than it's worth. What then? Do all older men end up living behind a dirty window?

Hitch,
Good post. You summed up what has been said in this thread. One thing I've noticed with men posting at this web site (when it comes to SF) men will globalize on everything they see wrong with their wives or their relationship - when it really is one problem - not getting SF.

GG

Pieta, great point. Why do you think there's a bunch of rickety grumpy dirty old men out there?

Seriously though. I know from talking with the few men that are in their late 50's and early 60's that while the frequency of SF may decline and the nature of how older men and women practice SF changes, my sense is that what I've outlined does lessen with advanced aging, but it doesn't disappear entirely. From what I've read, while the assumption with older married couples for a long time reinforced the idea that sex disappears as we approach our golden years, actual research has proven that married couples are indeed enjoying SF well into their 60's, 70's, and even their 80's, and that it is still the men in their golden years that express an avid interest in SF.

That said, the male chemicals and hormones that drive our sexuality also diminish with age, so it would make sense to me that as men age they tend to become less dependent upon SF as a primary contributor to intimacy in their marital relationship. I'd also submit that, in general, as we humans age, we tend to learn how better apply balance and moderation in our lives. Between the physiological and psychological changes that occur, SF may become less influential as men age. Since I'm only 37, I can't speak from experience though.

From the perspective of my analogy with the dirty window, I'd submit that as men age, we discover other methods of cleaning the window on a consistent basis besides SF. But, until the physiological effects of aging start to take their toll, it seems that SF remains the primary window cleaning agent. Oh, and to date, women have not been able to invent any alternative window cleaners that can effectively replace SF, much to some women's shagrin.

GG,

Yes, I agree, and many other men, per the article, probably would too if they were open and honest. That said, I don't know that men who are generally in sexless M's (usually defined as sex less than once a month) could consciously state what you did. The reason is, that so many other areas of their M are in a miserable state that it may be difficult for said men to clearly recognize that the lack of SF affects so many other areas of their lives in a negative fashion. To use my analogy, their window is very dirty, and therefore everything they look at, they will not see clearly. So, anything that they look at they see through a negative lense. Therefore, it's easy for a man in such circumstances to become very negative about a lot of what goes on in his life. If their W is brave enough to ask what is wrong - what can I do to make things better - the man could quite easily provide a laundry list of things his W could improve upon.

The Bible says that love covers over a multitude of sins. This would seem to be true. I know that if my wife has "rocked my world" consistently and bad things happen, even between the two of us, it would take a LOT of bad things before I'd start to really complain. But, in times past when good SF was a rare thing, it was very easy for me to become overly critical as soon as the slightest of problems presented themselves.

The analogy HH uses to describe 'mens' view on the world through a window is completely accurate for me as well. I think that for men, the primary factor in keeping the window 'clean' is quite often SF. There have been times in my life in which the world couldn't touch me, and the primary reason was that I felt completely fulfilled sexually. A morning 'wake up' sexual experience made me almost want to shout out... "My wife cares about me... I know something you don't know... and YOU can't do anything which would significantly effect my day for the worse." I almost laughed when I would be sitting in a meeting and see some guys in a 'bad mood' and I would think... 'buddy, if you had what I got this morning, you wouldn't be feeling like that.'

I know ladies... it doesn't seem fair, and maybe it isn't in some aspects, but men FOR THE MOST PART, are significantly contented in a relationship by way of well met SF. It makes a HUGE difference in ALL of our activities throughout the day.

I wish, really wish, that women and men could all switch ENs for a MONTH. That would give US a better understanding about how important YOUR ENs are and a much better idea about how we can optimally meet them. And it would give you a better understanding about just how significant GREAT SF can be for a man and how truly incredibly all encompassing that can be for his well being in all aspects and how much improvement that will result in the marriage.

Here is a question I have began thinking about when both men and women are talking about 'duty sex'.

I know that there are times, when I have had such a lousy day, that I want to just melt when I get home. Bad episode with someone, just pressure, big load, etc. If my wife would take the thought that "He has had a lousy day, I would like to make him feel better. What can I do which will have the maximum impact on his sense of well being? What can I do which will have the most beneficial effect on his confidence, peace, relaxation, and love?"

If my wife recognized these days, which are not all that often, but do occur, and would make me a priority for that evening, even just for an hour, it would make all the difference. AND... one of the primary ways she could effect me would be to prioritize my need for SF ABOVE other things going on at the time. Now I am NOT saying, let supper burn while she makes love to me, but I AM saying, pulling me into the laundry room, giving me a hug and a kiss... saying "I am sorry you had such a rotten day, But I know what will make you feel better." And maybe just 'rubbing' on me for a second, or even 2 minutes of a BJ with notice that finishing after supper would be a top priority.

There would be NOTHING which could compare to that sort of love for me. Ladies, I don't know if you understand what that means to a man, but you know how I keep saying that I (we men) don't have a go to 'gimme' HUGE EN filler which can do what YOU can do for us... this is that time.

Now... the question is... is this 'duty sex'? What if the wife has also been frazzled a bit? What if she 'isn't in the mood'? What if she just doesn't feel like it? Is this then duty sex? Is this INCREDIBLE POWER to effect her husband's needs and in reality, outlook on life ATM, something to be ignored or looked down on, because she 'isn't feeling it'?

On the Flip side... If my wife is upset, due to whatever she has experienced in her day. I come home, and see this, and offer to finish supper, give her a massage, draw her a bath and take the kids, etc etc etc. All in an effort to help improve her day... I think most women would say that this is 'fine and dandy' maybe even expected. But if I just didn't 'feel' like finishing supper, or 'taking over' the kids... That would be felts as being 'selfish' at least that is how I believe most women would look at it.

"Why didn't he help out?"... "That selfish [censored]... he just doesn't get it..." Would all make the rounds via phone and coffee the following day.

Ladies... am I correct?

CFIO, yes, great examples! Nothing like a good SF wake up call to set the right mood for the day eh?


I think it is important to state that the underlying assumptions I'm making with respect to my own posts are the same assumptions that the MB system makes in order to work effectively. That the M has to otherwise be in relative health, and that neither spouse has any addictions or psychological or physiological abnormalities that may interfere with a normal healing process.

For instance, I myself struggle with narcisism. If I do not remain conscious of my narcistic tendencies and allow my behavior to revert back to only caring about myself, then no matter what my W does it won't result in me being satisfied. I'll also become overly critical of everyone around me at the same time, especially my beautiful bride. So, I'm always on guard internally, watchful of how I'm choosing my behavior, and I'm always working consciously to ask myself how can I serve my beautiful bride best today? Some days I do well and other days not so well, but overall, it's two steps foward one step back.


That would certainly be ideal, but then that would also be cheating to some extent. I think it's important to get creative about how best to meet EN's in a meaningful manner in order to promote an environment that will allow our W's to feel free to meet our SF EN's as men. With respect to each individual woman, the recipe is a bit different. What I've come to realize is that most men, during the courting stages of their relationships, make it a point to study the woman they are pursuing. They notice things, both the big important points as well as the minute details, about the woman that has smitten them. This study process usually stops once we've captured our bride, and we move on to study other things with the same intensity, like our careers, our children, our hobbies (cars, boats, whatever your hobbies are...), you name it really, but we stop studying our bride.

The biblical perspective of love covering over a multitude of sins has another underlying important point in my view. While we're all sensate beings, women are generally more in tune with the people around them than men. Women are more relational. So, a woman can sense when a man has "moved on" and is no longer making a study of his bride. What does this communicate to your bride men?

Now, I'm going to turn the article that started this whole thread on it's head. The article stated that for men, SF clearly states, moreso than anything else: "You are more important to me than anything else in the world.”

Well men, I believe that when our brides sense that they are no longer in the number one spot in our hearts and minds, it becomes difficult for them to respond to us and "rock our world" so to speak. Basically, it's a two way street. If my beautiful bride knows in her heart every day that "You are more important to me than anything else in the world," then it's easy for her to meet my SF EN, and even to do so, as the article states, "if at all possible, respond to his advances with your full emotional involvement, knowing that you’re touching his heart." This issue here reminds me of the old adage, seek first to understand, before being understood. If I want my bride to give me all of herself via SF, then she needs to know without a shadow of a doubt that she is number one, and that I cherish her more than anyone or anything else. How do we men accomplish this? Once again, the answer is different for each woman, good luck with your personal journey of discovery. To be sure, study her, make her feel as though she is your primary focus in life.

For me, what does this look like? It looks like a lot of different things really. It looks like me planning brief relatively cheap getaways for the two of us every so often, it looks like me doing the dishes, taking out the trash, taking the family out to dinner occasionally, cooking, cleaning the bathrooms, dusting every couple of weeks, cleaning up a mess when I see one, emptying the dishwasher when I see that it needs to be emptied, and re-filling it if there are dirty dishes in the sink, scrubbing the ceramic stove top because it needs doing, taking the dog for a walk with her, holding her intimately before bed each night - cuddling - both when she needs it and when she doesn't need it, helping the boys with their homework, texting and emailing her each day and asking her how she's feeling, how the day is going, what can I help with when I get home, can I pick anything up on the way home, texting her on the cellphone early every morning with a "boo" and asking her how she's feeling and telling her whatever's on my mind - each and every morning. The early morning texting is relatively new for me and I just started up this practice about two weeks ago - and just recently I got a compliment from her that she's now looking forward to getting in the car each morning and seeing the text messages that I've already sent to her phone (she leaves the house about 20 minutes after I do - during which I make sure to text her phone right after I get on the train to commute to my job each morning). It looks like me recognizing when I get home after a busy day that my beautiful bride has also had a stressful day, and announcing that mom and dad are running a quick errand and we'll be back in a bit - and taking her to get a coffee at McDonald's (her current inexpensive drink of choice), and listening intently to how her day went while I'm driving, asking questions, being involved in her life. It looks like me giving her a back or foot massage after a tough day and not expecting it to lead to SF if she's overly tired, or washing her down in the shower to help her relax. Sure, sometimes my bride takes it in the SF direction - but it's her choice - I am just trying to serve her to the best of my ability. To be clear - these things I do to serve my bride are generally accomplished without her having to ask me to do them - which is an important part of what communicates to my bride that I really care - the not having to ask part.

My overall point here is that CFIO made a comment that it doesn't seem fair to the ladies. My point is that if we men learn to treat our wives as the beautiful brides that we married way back when, if they know in their hearts that our brides are number one, without exception and without question, that it will no longer seem unfair to ask them to meet our SF EN on a frequent basis. In my experience, when a woman truly opens her heart and her mind to a man sexually, without limits, without pretenses, and without inhibitions because she knows that you truly care, that she comes first, that it is all of you and all of her, and there is no fear of judgement of any kind for any reason - the term "rocked your world" will become a regular part of your vocabulary. And better yet, you may get to the point where the "asking" part is no longer necessary.

Lastly, I'll state that it's easy to read what I've written here as too rosy a picture. Trust me, W and I are still human. There are still arguments to be had, sarcastic moments with negative undertones, we still have many shortcomings, but keeping the right attitude in times of adversity and difficulty is what matters.

HH,

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

I completely agree. I just bookmarked that entire post.

Thank you for the helpful article.

I am sincerly understanding my dhs needs for SF. I have learned that he needs SF as much or more than I need affection and honesty and openess (recreational companionship has also been a high EN for me).

Thank you Hitchhiker for your sensitivity to women; we are indeed "the weaker vessel" in many ways.

Exactly. Thank you for posting this. And I have to say, from personal experience, it becomes a slap in the face when we are treated this way while dating and first married...only to be told later on that it's too much trouble/asking too much or that just isn't who our H is...when that is exactly who we married...the guy who romanced us, cherished us, made an effort to show us how special we are. It is very disheartening and certainly doesn't inspire us to "rock his world."

It can be such a vicious cycle. The W having no desire to meet her H's needs because he isn't meeting hers while at the same time the H has no desire to meet the W's needs because she isn't meeting his. Round and round they go...each pointing the finger at the other.

Hitchhiker:

Fabulous set of posts. You summed it up so well. Without much sex, that 100 item to do list looks overwhelming. After sex, it looks like an inviting challenge.

Pieta:

I think as men age, the rate of dirt accumulation changes as well. The dirt doesn't accumulate as quickly, so you don't have to apply "window cleaner" as often to keep the window clear.

I no longer feel the need for sex as urgently as I used to. That is not nearly as depressing as I imagined it would be. I can imagine that the later years would be wonderful for couples who have kept their love alive despite a mismatch in libidos, and who then find their schedules more in sync.

I've read articles where senior citizens (both women and men) say SF is different but in a way better - because it is all taking your time and pleasing each other.

GG

P.S. Sorry for no longer politically correct term SC.

And becomes that age old-argument of the H saying to the wife "you're not the woman I married" while the W is thinking/saying the same thing to the H. Only yesterday, my H barely spoke to me all day except to snap at me when he announced he was going to the gym and I said "Okay" (he thought I was 'giving him permission'). And then last night....

So ok, I'm in Plan A--I complied. But how good can you feel about it when almost an entire day goes by where you are virutally ignored?

Because you are creating a joyous new life for yourself, OH, one where you don't hand over your serenity to anyone. One where you have fun UA time by yourself, and hour to two every day, and fun FC time with the kids, again an hour or two a day, whether your H joins the fun or not.

I know how you feel. What has worked for me is to focus on me and what I am doing...making my family and home happy. It's unfortunate that my H and I don't have the emotional connection in SF that I wish we had...that I give SF to my H because I know it makes him happy and not because I am filled with this need to share with him and connect with him because of how he makes me feel loved and cherished and special outside of the bedroom...that whole affection EN...but I am doing my best to meet his needs which makes me happy with myself.

And making myself happy meant I had to let go of the expectations I had regarding my H. Unfortunately, SF does not necessarily end up being the motivating factor with influencing your H to meet your EN's...aka the 100 item list. LOL! It has not been so in my M.

You are a better woman than I. I just can't see living the rest of my life like that. While I'm sure he misses how we used to be in the early days, I do as well. I've been doing my best to try to recapture some of that during this time period but without getting much in return, it's hard for me to put my heart and soul into it.