If you don't make that hair appt I'm going to be really cross with you. Good hair is very important in a woman's life!

I'm not sure whether I should worry about you a little or a lot, st. I have the impression that you are "further out" than we think, and "not waving but drowning".

Are you frightened of your H sometimes, still? Are you frightened about living with these cycles for a long time in the future? If so, do you have adequate help to cope with the situation?

I don't think that you can continue to hide from H when he is down and give thanks when he comes up again. It is wrong for you and your children to be subjected to that.

You came here, commendably, to talk about restoring your marriage after your affair. You have taken the 2x4s that were dished out because you no longer wanted to be an adulterer. I applaud you for that.

However, your H's moods and violence have not really been addressed because of your affair. You had a difficult and sometimes dangerous marriage before you made the choice to have an affair. Now, having thrown the hand grenade of an affair into an already volatile marriage, I wonder if you feel that you cannot press for help with H's depression and violence because of what you did.

I don't know much about dealing with depression and violence, but I don't think that your affair means that you should accept the state of your marriage (in the down times, anyway).

Were you completely open about the verbal and physical abuse when you spoke to H's GP and got counselling, or did you focus on the moods but not the violence? I suspect the latter because of the fear that your children would be seen as "at risk". Think about this again, please; did you do the same thing that you described doing in marriage counselling?

I'm not suggesting that when you next talk to H's GP you blurt out that you are really scared that he will attack the kids! I just think that if he or she realised what you really face during a down cycle the GP would arrange a referral to a specialist.

I have a bad effect on threads that I participate in. I wish your other posters would come back!

Thanks SC

I'm waving - please don't worry about me. I'm not frightened anymore but I do dread living with these cycles, it's hard work.

I will reply properly tomorrow, we have friends coming tonight - just arriving.

I'm sure someone out there must have some experience of dv. I'd love to find just one story of a couple that have worked through this and survived without any further incidences into retirement. We are both tenacious and intelligent and are confident we can change. I would just love to here of even 1 other couple that have done it. (At the moment I don't want to hear the negative stories).

Would love some more input someone, please

ST

I do know of a long-term poster. She is the BW and her marriage is much improved but there were a number of incidents. I don't know what the board etiquette is for naming people. I haven't seen her post for a week or two, but she is still active and I will try and track her down.

Enjoy your weekend, st.

st,

My husband has been recently diagnosed with bipolar. He has been on depression medication for a couple years but only because I talked to the our doc about it and she convinced him to try it. I completely understand the up and down moods. Please, please try to convince your husband to get some help for at least his childrens sake.

I really don't want to see your situation come to the point that ours did, my husband actually had a suicide attempt planned when I stepped in to stop it. However, if he wouldn't have given me the clues, he might be dead.

He had an awful childhood with all kinds of abuse. I tried to get him to talk to a counselor for years, but he never would. He was too proud to get help, but trust me that he needed it. If fact, when he was in the hospital after being suicidal, he wrote down "I AM FINALLY GETTING THE HELP I NEED".

He has been on additional medications since and they have also added a mood stablizer for bipolar. Trust me when I say that there is definately a huge difference. My husband has never been physically abusive, but would get very angry at times.

He needs to seek help for this as soon as possible for his childrens sake, they do not need to grow up in fear of their fathers moods.

Take care, Nicole

H always knew about the affair and I think that was what made him so angry and miserable in the 6months-year leading to August. Since then he accpeted that FOM was giving me something that he couldn't/didn't feel able to give me - although H and I were both still denying the A. In a strange way that made it easier for him and he was less stressed and he knew he had to regain control of himself if he wanted me to stick around. I need to make him feel loved and wanted while I get some help - I just need to make sure that he feels secure before I get help - I can't push him - he sees it as DJ and I guess it is. THat is why I need to get the help.



When I'm down after an episode and during - there is no thinking straight. I will not accept the state of my marriage - we both continue to work at it.


Yes we were open about it, but H was slightly suicidal at the time so that was the priority then.


He's bounced back now - concerned that I might give up on him. I feel tired, a bit down and reallys truggling to get motivated. I've got an essay to be done today.


At the moment I'm thinking this is the first down patch he's had since we've tried to end the A, it lasted a week but he wasn't violent. This is the worse thing that I've ever thrown at him and probably one of the worst things that will be thrown at him -maybe we have come out the other side.

I will remain hopeful, ever the optimist. But more than hope we will both act.

ST

Dear Nicole

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me - it gives me hope. I'd love him to take more ownership - he is quite happy for me to do all the leg work and he'll go along for the ride. But I don't want him to resent me for doing it in the future. I guess it's the chance I have to take - it can't really carry on. Were you able to get the meds quite quickly? I've heard it can take years to get a diagnosis. How rapid were your Hs cycles? Does he still get enthusiastic about things on meds?


THis is why I want to put an end to. I don't want to beg/plead with the children to help me tidy up because daddy will be home soon with that nasty sick feeling in my stomach. We don't want to be always wondering "will this set him off?"

ST

Hi ST,

SugarCane asked that I look in on your thread because my father had Bipolar Disorder...Bipolar disorder manifests differently in different people, so my experiences won't necessarily mirror yours completely - there are different types of Bipolar and even different degrees of it...To give you some idea of what we dealt with, my father began cycling when I was 10 years old (I'm 39 now) - or at least that is when he began to have episodes major enough to be noticed...His episodes of mania came along every 2 to 3 years and would last for a period of 6 months...The stories I could tell you would likely curl your toes...During those times violence was quite prevalent...He passed away in June 2007. He had a heart attack during a manic episode. He was unmedicated...

What Nicole told you about your not wanting to let your children live around his moods is significant, because what happens in situations like that is the same thing that often happens with children of alcoholics...They wait to let others determine their mood for them - ie: "Let's see how dad is today before I can decide how I will be." It is unconcious of course...While this makes for very intuitive children, it is not so great for them in becoming their own person...

I also see you struggling to separate your affair from his possible illness...Those are indeed very separate things...While I certainly understand vulnerability being created in a Bipolar household, it's still no excuse for having poor boundaries and choosing an affair...See, I watched my mom continue to have iron clad boundaries regarding this no matter how badly my father behaved...My mom, bless her heart, held fast to her convenant with God and commitment that she made to my dad when she married him - she never had an affair - even though my father did TERRIBLE things to her - stuff like holding her at gunpoint, drawing blood by hitting - (he was oh so sorry on the rare occasions that that happened - "it was an accident" - you know what? It really WAS an accident too, but see he had so little control over himself in his blind rages - oh now he loved her dearly, odd as that sounds, but it only takes a moment for permanent damage to be done - she could so easily have been killed), nasty bruises and even violent marital rape - and more...So I've seen it done and know that it can be...meaning remaining faithful even during the worst of situations...I won't keep hammering you on that, but I wanted you to know that your affair, as all affairs are, was caused by poor boundaries on your part, not by your husband's treatment of you, okay?

When your husband spoke to his doctor, was Bipolar Disorder specifically discussed? Is your husband willing to see a psychiatrist? That is where he would need to go for diagnosis...And I understand that he doesn't want to go to counseling for life, but if he is determined to have Bipolar Disorder, that would have to be a MUST and I'll tell you why...Medication is IMPERATIVE in treating Bipolar Disorder, and one of the symptoms of that disorder is not wanting to take the meds...ESPECIALLY when they are feeling better...In the book An Unquiet Mind: A Memoir of Moods and Madness, Kay Redfield Jamison explains that there is no pill that can convince you to take a pill, so therefore counseling in conjunction with meds is a MUST for someone with Bipolar Disorder...That is a GREAT book, btw...Jamison is a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and also has Bipolar Disorder herself...

Gosh ST, I've done quite a bit of rambling without too much of a point in places I'm afraid...Please feel free to ask me anything you would like regarding Bipolar Disorder and I'll do my best to provide you with an answer...Can you give me other "symptoms" besides just mood swings? Is there rapid/pressured speech, grandiose delusions, a cadence of sorts to his words? Anything you can think of...little quirks that only appear during these "cycles"???

Mrs. W

Mrs W, I'm convinced that you're an angel. Thank you for helping when I asked.

st,

Were you able to get the meds quite quickly? I've heard it can take years to get a diagnosis. How rapid were your Hs cycles? Does he still get enthusiastic about things on meds?

My husband was put on bipolar meds shortly after he was released from the hospital. I am not sure if he was able to get diagnosed faster due the severity of is situation or not. However, if your husband is suicidal then he needs to get help before he does something you will all regret. If you need to, take control yourself by calling help when he is suicidal. Will he admit to a doctor or police that he is? If not, then find a way show them. If he is a harm to himself or others, they should put him on some kind of hold and get him help. Trust me, it was the hardest thing in my life to do, but I had to call the police and have them take my husband in and it was awful. But, we are both so glad now that I had the strength to do what I needed to do.

As far as my husbands bipolar goes, he does have cycles however he is very good at holding things in so they are not as apparent as others with bipolar are. Yes, he gets very enthusiastic about things now. He is finally being involved with our children the way he should. I am not sure if it is all due to the medication or just part of hitting rock bottom and finally getting help, but he is definately different. His moods are much more stable since he go the bipolar medication.

Also, I grew up on a household with a father that had an awful temper. He never hit, but that scared feeling you get inside as a child is awful. Your husband needs to understand that and get some help for his childrens sake.


If there is anything else I can help you with, please let me know.

Hi Mrs W,

Thank you very much for stopping by and sharing your experience of BP, the only information I have is of our own research it is very helpful to have some insight where people are actually involved and can give first hand experience.




I can see this happening already - when he is miserable DD is very loving and cheerful and kind to her bro when he is angry and irriatable she is quite quiet



At the time of the A I know I used it as an excuse. I don't now, if I did, I would be looking for my next AP.



I want to do everything for my marriage but I want a commitment form my H too. I'm not going to stick aound being bullied forever. I admire your mothers staying power and commitment to her beliefs depite the horrors she was suffering, I wouldn't have stayed around in those circumstances. I don't have a covenant with God, just with my husband.



It wasn't specifically discussed - i will when I go this week or when ever I can get an appt.
He seems to cycle rapidly and I'd say he was hypomanic - he wants to build a mansion, he spends money we haen't got, we recently had a new kitchen, I wanted to buy what we could afford. He argued that we should spend over 2x as much as I wanted to and we could afford. The loan repayments are really tough. in these periods he talks rapidy and over me, other people have noticed him talking quickly too. As this phase sort of moves on he then enters the aggressive and irriatable phase, where the tiniest things drive him insane and I become a jibbering wreck which winds him up even more. Then enters the depression where he realises what he has done.

I did 3 online test on his behalf yesterday - they all came out positive for further investigation into BP. He did one of them which said he wasn't. Am I looking for a diagnosis to excuse his behaviour and building up his score subconsciously or is he trying to keep his score down?

Thanks again

ST

Thank you for answering my questions Nicole, and giving me hope that we can aim for some stabiltiy. I really hope your H continues to make good progress and enjoy life.

I remember that scared feeling too, it shapes the way I try to behave with my children - Iknow H experienced too. He doesn't direct serious anger or real aggression at then just irritation. The fear they get is from mine. I'm not scared of being hurt just of the yelling and verbal abuse.

Thanks for your question answering offer

ST

Today I'm tired. Worn down. Lonely. I'd like someone else to take responsibility. I'd like someone else to make the effort. I'd like a hug and I'd like to feel loved.

I'm sending you a virtual hug, st.

I'm sure it's harder for you to see because you're right in the thick of it, but I can see that progress is being made already. You are getting advice from experienced people here, and you are not going to struggle alone with the bp issue any longer. Make that GP appointment and make sure you get him or her to understand what has been raised here.

Quick threadjack:

Hi abm. It's good to hear from you. I was worried about you when you came here, and I was sorry to hear of your H's diagnosis. However, I'm glad that you feel things are under control now. Perhaps you could update your thread?

st, I've been thinking about what Mrw W wrote and your responses to some parts. st, I know that it is hard to make meanings clear when we put our responses in writing, with limited space, so I realise I might have misunderstood you. However, when I read Mrs W I did not hear her say that you, or anyone, should remain married no matter what, because you have made a covenant (with God, in her and her mother's cases). I read her to say that if you decide to stay married, and while you do, even if it is only on a day-to-day basis, you should honour your marital commitment and not have an affair.

Mrs W suggested that, even for someone who has made a covenant with God, the marital commitment can be ended by the spouse who is the victim of adultery. This means that there are sometimes ground for breaking the covenant with God.

Mrs W did not say so, but many Christians also see abuse as as providing grounds for ending the covenant, if the abused spouse wishes it to end.

I'm not actually trying to discuss religion with you st; I'm trying to point out that Mrs W did not say that the covenant should be kept no matter what. I understood the example of her mother to show that, as long as her mother decided to remain married, she did not use her H's abuse as an excuse to behaviour immorally herself. She didn't have to stay with her H through his abuse but while she did stay, she did not have the right to have an affair, and she did not give herself permission to do so.
Of course you deserve a commitment to extraordinary care from your H; he should honour the commitment that he made to you on your wedding day, and he should not allow his depression to excuse himfrom that commitment. the hard thing about his illness, as I am beginning to learn, is that he can't be forced to seek treatment. However, somehow, between the counselling and your talking to him when he is "up", he must be brought to see that he cannot ask you to live with him as he is, and he should not be harming (emotionally) his children as he is doing. He must see that treatment is not just for himself, so that he feels better, but so that he can honour his commmitements to you and the children. If he will not do this then of course you must not "stick around being bullied for ever". You did not sign up to that when you got married and your children certainly must not be brought up in that environment.

In your case, st you have not made a covenant with God but you have made a covenant to be faithful and to love, honour and cherish. Until you decide to end that covenant you should honour it, and if and when you end the covenant you must do so publicly and legally, by divorcing. You must not end it in your mind by saying that H puts nothing into the marriage therefore the marriage is ended and you can stop honouring those vows. When people decide that the covenant is ended in their hearts, even though they have not told the world at large that this is the case, they allow themselves to indulge in all sorts of morally relative behaviour that hurts other people.

As a BS, I also want to point out that you may not decide that since your marriage is over in your heart, you have the right to have a relationship with somebody else's husband (not that I think you are planning to do so again! But you did so before). Even if someone tells you that his marriage is over in his heart, it is not over in fact, and you will very likely be hurting his wife by becoming involved with her husband.

You made a public and legal declaration of marriage and until you undo that on whatever grounds, you should not have an involvement with another man.

I hope that you can see that I am not bashing you, st; I really admire you for coming here and I like you a lot! However, you came here for advice and you were giving the best from Mrs W, who is a FWW herself. I'm just trying to add my BW's perspective.

I do think that your H's depression (which sounds so like bi-polar from your last post) is a serious problem for your marriage and for the children, and it must be urgently diagnosed and treated. On depression, Dr Harley says this:

Whenever a spouse I counsel for marital problems suffers from severe depression, my first item of business is to treat the depression, not the marital problems. The treatment, however, is much simpler than most people think. Anti-depressant medication is the ticket. It greatly relieves, if not eliminates entirely, a depressive state so that the spouse I counsel can succeed in meeting the other spouse's emotional needs. As his depression is lifted, he seizes opportunities both in his marriage and at his job, that makes him more successful. In the end, his self-esteem is restored because he finds himself successful in achieving his life's ambitions. I do not believe that counseling to improve self-esteem, apart from showing people how to be successful, ever really improves self-esteem.

What to do with a depressed spouse

If your H will not listen to reason and seek treatment then of course you should not stay and be bullied, but you must determine to act morally yourself until your marriage is over - and even then do not enter a relationship with a man who is legally married.

Ok, SC, I don't think you did misunderstand me but I think I chose to look at MrsWs post differently (I see God mentioned and I become defensive). I see now as you do. I agree I should honour my marital commitment and not have an affair and now understand what MrsW was saying.


I agree totally, this was always my thought before i got married and I have now recovered myself enough to realise that this has to be the way now. I can not hae my actions hurting anyone else.


I really agree with this, so many wonderful BS have helped me out here and made what I did so real, that I would feel that I was personally insulting all of you if I was so stupid and selfish again. It ain't gonna happen.




Thank you SC, i can see that this is not a bashing, although it prob is deserved and thank you for highlighting Harley's thoughts on depression.

Sorry MrsW too.

H just asked what I was up to. I told him I was still fighting for him. He told me not to bother. It does break my heart but I know it isn't the real him speaking.

We'd planned to do an exercise DVD together tonight - he's told me to go for a run with the girls instead.
We're s'posed to being having a day out together tomorrow - just the two of us, I can't deny it - I am scared that away from the kids I am going face a torrent of abuse all day.

Keep thinking positive thoughts... Keep thinking positive thoughts... We'll have a great day...We'll have a great day


ST

Excellent posts SugarCane!!! Exactly!

See this is where I struggle in giving advice regarding Bipolar Disorder...I see very clearly MANY times where my mother should have drawn appropriate boundaries regarding my father's refusal to take medication...And yet, I also respect greatly her deep commitment to him, God and her vows..."In SICKNESS and in health" come to mind of course...

I will tell you that MOST people in my mother's situation would NOT have stayed...Many, many people with Bipolar Disorder are left by their spouses because their behaviors are just too much for most people to handle...And it's FRUSTRATING...MADDENING...HEARTBREAKING...The whole enchilada...See, most folks with Bipolar Disorder are just these wonderful, brilliant, engaging people...When they aren't cycling you WANT to be near them...they are MAGNETS...Bright lights of this world...But when they are cycling the opposite is true and they can suck the very life right out of anyone near them...It is a huge dilemma...

But YES, what you say is true, while ST is married to her husband honoring fully that commitment is imperative to all involved...

ST, to answer your question regarding your husband's filling out that online test...Yes, he probably - very probably did underestimate what is going on with him...IF he is diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, you will learn that it is one of the most cunning afflictions around...I watched my father fool many highly trained professionals...almost as if he had a bizarre on and off switch somewhere within himself...ugh...I'm sorry, my experiences with Bipolar Disorder make me a grim one to talk to at times...I think my dad was extreme in many ways and you might be best served by talking with someone like coachswife who herself has Bipolar Disorder and does choose to stay medicated...Putting a call out to her might be a great idea for you actually...She is also a FWW...My dad was easier to talk to and reach when he was in a depressed state...THEN he could more easily be convinced to get help, because then HE felt bad...mania, and most especially hypomania, can at times feel very good and really it's pretty easy to understand why someone wouldn't want to take meds that would take that feeling away...

A little more about my mom...She DID eventually have to divorce my father on paper because of the many crazy financial things he had done, but also and more importantly, because when he became violent she had no way of getting him out of the house while they were still married...because it was just viewed as a "domestic call" and unless there was blood the police could not remove him...It was a crazy way of life for sure...There were 3 times that we had him involuntarily committed - ugh, those were especially hard because they would take him to the state mental hospital...I can't begin to describe the horror of those experiences to you...

Bottom line, if he is diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder I will tell you what my boundary would be...NO MEDS = NO MARRIAGE...Bipolar Disorder worsens with age...meaning the episodes come more often and are more severe...Knowing what I know, I could not live that way ever again...

Gee, this feels like an unhelpful post...that is not my intent, but maybe why I should keep my mouth shut regarding issues of Bipolar Disorder...:teef:

Mrs. W

P.S. SugarCane, lol about the "angel" comment...you better keep that on the "down-low" lest my reputation around here get ruined!

Another reason I worry about giving advice regarding UNDIAGNOSED Bipolar Disorder to you ST, is that I am concerned that you may still be foggy and telling you this stuff gives you rationalizations and justifications to not work on your marriage...I worry that perhaps YOU are exaggerating your husband's behavior because, let's face it, WWs are NOTORIOUS for using the "abused wife" card...

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh...I don't mean to sound cruel, but since I am a FWW I do know how that mindset works...

I'm not that familiar with your story...Could you fill me in a bit? How long was your affair? When was dday? And how long has NC been in effect?

Mrs. W

While you're at it, st, could you explain about your statement that H knew all along of the affair. What did he know and how?