ARE YOU SERIOUS???????

Adult carers being stressed to the point of violence???? WHAT????

Violence is a choice...unless of course you have underlying mental illness, which I think could possibly be true in this case. And then of course, the children should be nowhere NEAR these three adults who are so unable to control themselves.

Stress no more causes violence than it causes ADULTERY!!!!!!

Violence is the result of choices and a sense of entitlement. As is adultery.

And these three adults appear to be operating as a herd. They egg
each other on and cheer as each of them inflicts a worse blow than the last.

I think to even IMPLY that STRESS caused these ADULTS to be violent towards Tully is callous and cruel beyond imagination.

WH2LE, you have such a big heart.

Some of the history and circumstances that TA described were not an accurate representation of events described on this thread. However, perhaps we should let that rest.

TA, do you think that tully should accept the need to stay in France for her children's sake? That since she chose to live there with her husband and bring up her children there, she should accept the consequence of that choice now, which is that France is their home? Do you think that she is wrong to try and move them, which she is doing for her sake and not for theirs?

That might well be a perfectly reasonable argument. I certainly think that will be the case that H makes to a judge. I think that I and some others here have been biased against it because we sympathise with tully about the life-sentence aspect of it.

I tend to think that moving the girls to Ireland was not, and will not be, as traumatic for them as you suggest. It IS a foreign country in which English is spoken, but it is one with which they have been familiar and where they have a large, loving family with young cousins (which they don't have nearby in France). I think the support for their mother, which will increase her happiness, will offset their culture shock, which will wear off quickly because they are young.

I think that they will adapt quickly even if their father does not follow them there, as long as he sees them regularly and they stay with him during the holidays.

I think their trauma will come from the marital breakdown, which their father wants anyway (the breakdown, not the trauma). tully has put out feelers to restore the marriage and H has not taken up her offers. He has made it clear that he does not wish to spend the rest of his life with her - he said this in an email after he announced his intention of divorcing her.

In my view, it is the loss of their solid family with two formerly loving parents that will hit them hard over the years, not the move, should it happen. There are both losses and benefits involved in their move to Ireland; I don't think it is as damaging as you suggest.

If a move is likely to be highly damaging, then asking H to find a job in Ireland will do little to offset that damage. His 50/50 care won't make up for their loss of friends, language, familiar schools and other things. If keeping them settled is the overriding concern, then tully should not propose an Irish solution at all. Is that what you think?

I think the loss of friends, language schools etc. will be compensated for by the gain of family, new friends, an English-language education (a desirable commodity, as WH2LE suggests) and a happier mother.

TA I most definatly have to disagree with how you think the situation should have been handled.

Tully was in a situation where there was not only mental and verbal abuse but physicall abuse as well. It even happened in the presence of the children.

They heard what was happening and WH HAS ADMITTED IT. So your telling me she should have kept the children in that situation. I have no doubt POSIL would have still made her life hell and she would have had no support and be cut off from the world like a prisoner in solitary confinement.

You can look at it from the other sides stand point. But at some point the other side decided violence was an answer. That was a choice he made. And honestly it happened before tully went to ireland.

I do not blame her for withdrawing herself or the children from that situation, in fact I commend her for being so strong.

When did tully present her going to Ireland to WH as a holiday break? Perhaps she was vague with the girls but WH knew exactly why she was leaving. ETA: WH has made it clear that he didn't want their "adult problems" presented to the children so it's reasonable that tully wasn't going to tell the children - Dad won't stop banging his mistress and I'm emotional and physically falling apart. What was she supposed to say without alarming them?


Eldest DD may have been wondering why they weren't returning to France, but things change and any parent has to do what they think is right as the situation changes. That's simply a fact a life. DD11 seems to have a good head on her shoulders. She's certainly not stupid and figured out on her own that her father is a liar. Does it hurt her? Yes. Is she confused? Yes. But that doesn't mean she thinks tully has betrayed her.


Where is the cold feeling coming from? DD11 sounded rather well adjusted and was enjoying the time with her maternal relatives as well as Ruby. Does she miss her dad and friends in France? Probably, but that's hardly the cold OMG I'm stuck in a foreign country with strangers feeling.


Well I do agree with you that there were other options, but I don't find tully leaving as unreasonable either. Her WH has cheated and lied to her. He has gone as far as to hit her hard enough that she fell to the floor. Did tully expect her H would ever cheat on her or strike her? No. I'd find it very understandable that tully or any woman in her position wouldn't trust WH to act appropriately around the children either.


Perhaps. They will look at both sides as they should but that doesn't mean tully is going to look terrible while Wh looks like a victim either.


I disagree. The situation isn't pretty but the girls were hardly being terrorized or anything that extreme.


That is true. What's done is done though. I wouldn't advise tully to try and run off to Ireland. If she did so NOW, it would look bad. Her previous departure is more understandable to me and I think most reasonable people would understand that too. That doesn't mean she's may get universal support or not encounter a person who thinks WH isn't a victim.


Yep do it by the book. tully can still say that now that her health has improved and she has recovered from the stress pre-Ireland, that she wants the custody issues cleared up, financial support established, etc. since she has exhausted all possible means of reconcilation. She can still state her reasons that living in Ireland would be better for her and the children as well as make it perfectly clear that she never denied WH access to the children while they were in Ireland. As a practical and financial matter, it is easier for one grown man travel to Ireland than four girls and an adult travel to France and back.


Because she was going shopping? I'll just say I strongly disagree.



I agree. Have WH put to the test. Ask him to leave the house and support tully and the girls. If he agrees...great. I don't know if he will, but if he does good. Given WH messed up mentality that may only last so long anyways until he gets ticked again and starts making more demands because he's suffering so. Returning to Ireland may or may not be an option anymore. tully can still make a argument to do so. If not Ireland, then have WH put his money where his mouth is and cough up what he promised.

God Bless You Sugar. I was soooooangry when I wrote that.


ITA


I WHOLEHERTEDLY TA!!!!


And once again, ITA!!!

To everyone else: I believe most situations are helped by trying to understand the other side's point of view.

--Did you all read this? This post was good because it might give Tully the story her husband will use against her. She would be better preparred to understand what he probably will say now.

Tully, did you include yout FIL and WH in your report about your MIL? Attempting to physically remove your purse from you and screaming in your face are assults, too. This was not an attack by one old lady, this was a gang bang.

Someone on this site said it well: "Abusing their mother IS abusing a child".

This scenario has me triggering all over the place.

Please forgive the threadjack, let me talk about Martha.
She was my sisters BEST friend, and a friend of mine. She was enormous! But talked quiet (like a little girl) and was very quiet. She would not have hurt a fly.

about a year ago, she was attacked in her own home by her daughters boyfriend- father of her daughters baby girl. Martha said many times, "he will never hurt me"..

Well, he stomped on her face with his boots until her facial plate (bones) broke and caved into her skull. She lived for a few hours, but never regained conciousness.
I have a piece of her car, I pulled it out of her kitchen (yes, kitchen) becase after he killed her, he stole her van and tried to ram it into her house- he only made it that far before driving off.

He was caught, and they conviceted him because his boot prints fit exactly the depression they made onto her face. It had to be a horrible, horrible death.

What was Martha's "big sin" that made this "person" attack her?
Martha came into her daughters room to help her, because he was screaming at her, and she was crying ..."mamma, help me!"

The reason this reminds me so much of this story is family abuse is the worst. It just does not stay with husband and wife--it spills over in ugly, heat filled ways.

----ooooh, gotta go

This is not necessarily true.

Tully, you be VERY VERY careful. I would not put ANYTHING past those people.

TA, you have persistently twisted the facts of my situation but I will respond one last time trying not to be too angry.

This is completely untrue. I think it is clearly obvious that my intention in moving to Ireland was to SAVE my marriage, NOT to divorce. I fully expected to be moving back to France within a short time once WH realised what my boundaries were and how serious I was about enforcing them. I explained the situation honestly and clearly to my daughters. AT NO POINT did I lie to them. As the situation evolved I realised that going back was becoming more and more difficult.


Every offer he could think off????? Except to offer me NC with OW. The problem from the beginning is that WH and I have had different objectives: I wanted to reunite and sort out our M and he wanted a D. It took me a while to realise this.

After everything that has happened, living in this small village for either WH or me is no longer an option, no matter what way things go. WH is despised and disliked in this village and I suspect I might be pitied. Our private lives have been exposed in a way that is deeply damaging and cannot be good for either of us or the girls. In any case the only way forward is with a fresh break.


TA, this is a ridiculous statement. It is only true for the past couple of weeks since I have come to the realisation of how little respect WH has for me. You may remember that as recently as about 1 month ago I offered WH to give our M another go if he gave me NC with OW. I suggested that he take the 5 months leave he has available in order to work on our M. He refused. All I have wanted is NC in order to commit to the M; to offer me anything else is a smokescreen.

Another ridiculous, emotive statement. WH has never been prevented from entering my father's house and in fact has entered it many times when he came to pick up the girls. Nobody in my family has assaulted or insulted him apart from one minor incident when my brother called him a coward for hitting me and this was after WH entered the house in a threatening way accusing me of lying on two issues which my brother knew I had not lied on as he was a witness.
The girls have not spent any time with WH in a motel or hotel, tacky or otherwise. The apartment they stayed in is a modern, spacious, large self-catering bungalow which is actually in better condition than my father's house.

I am not sure what the purpose of your message was, TA, I object in the strongest possible way to your statement that I have done all this for selfish reasons and have not put my children's interests first and foremost.
When I first left it was not to 'all but kidnap' my children; it was to save my M which I believed was the best possible outcome for my children. I have since then tried everything to do so, asking WH for a specific plan for NC, suggesting that we talk to Steve Harley and most recently for WH to take time out to work on our M. All to no avail. So given that WH does not want the M, I cannot force him to do so.
Now that D is the only option, I believe that the best long-term option for my daughters is a life based close to my family. Their attachment is not to France as such, it is to their lives here, their friends, school, house, familiar surroundings. All of these things cannot be preserved any more both for emotional and financial reasons. If we stay here we will be greatly impoverished. In Ireland, on the other hand, we can live a much better life materially. They would also be surrounded by a loving extended family. WH has the option of living in Dublin which is only about 90 minutes away. I'm afraid that co-parenting is not a workable option because of location of WH's probable work, an understandable lack of willingness by WH to live in my area and the school hours (DD4 finishs school at 2pm) but I would be extemely flexible about WH having weekends, holidays and even spending evenings with them during the week. Co-parenting could not take place in Dublin because we could not afford 2 appropriate houses there and it would be too difficult to raise 4 children in a place where there is no support system.

To update you: On the advice of my solicitor, I have moved back into the house and am now in it. I wasn't here for most of the evening because I had to take my sister to the airport and there were flight problems which meant that when I got back everyone was in bed. My sister negotiated a bit with WH for PIL to leave tomorrow morning so we'll see if that happens. I have to say that I am very nervous being here and I will try to keep away from the house as much as possible when the children are not here. I am sleeping with one of my daughters rather than stay on the sofa alone.

My solicitor is totally against mediation but I intend to send her an email explaining why I think it might be worth trying. I have only a very little hope that it will work but I'm willing to give it a try.

I will know better tomorrow when the court date will take place as my solicitor is trying to push for an earlier date for judgement.

Thanks

Tully

I hope your sister was able to persuade WH that his troll parents need to go. I can only imagine how frustrating, scary, and crazy this has been for you. How is DD11? You mentioned she was upset earlier no thanks to grandtroll. Hope you get an early court date so you can end this limbo hell and have some peace soon. Stay strong tully. You are a great lady.

Tully,



You are one of the most impressive women I "know".

I am soooooooooooooo glad that you are back in your home.

I am also so relieved that you have finally talked to the solicitor.

Did I mention how happy I am that you are back in your house?

I am praying for a swift removal of the PIL from you-know-where.

EXCELLENT response!!! You are a superior writer, capable of conveying your thoughts very well.

Continuing to pray,

And did I happen to say that I am THRILLED that you are living in with your girls now?

barbiecat,

WHAT a horrifying story!!!


My point exactly when I talk about herd mentality. They egg each other on and on till.... Have you ever seen Lord of the Flies??

Praying for Tully's safety.

Tully,

Please disregard TA's post. I was going to offer a rebuttle but you have done such a fabulous job of it yourself (as have others...Sugar is one of your greatest supporters). I know that your motives were pure when you went to Ireland. Some of us have been here with you since nearly the beginning. I know that you were doing everything you could to try to save your marriage. You were on the narrow path, following the MB plans. But, unfortunately WH had other sinister plans of his own.

You are truly an amazingly strong woman Tully! It takes alot of courage to go back into that home given everything that has been thrown at you by WH and the his parents. I truly hope that they do leave tomorrow so that you have one less thing to contend with.

I am praying that the justice system will be kind to you and will do the right thing here. You and your children deserve the best possible outcome.

Mindshare

I am glad to hear that you are back in the house and hope that your in-laws will be gone soon. They should not have the power to keep you out of your own home. I would just ignore them if you can.

I agree with SC and the others that if at all possible, it is better to try to appeal to your husband's goodwill. (Feed him some of your best honey-scones!)

The very best outcome for the children would still be that you reconcile. Now that they are back with WH in the house and once he starts to fully realize the mess he has created, you never know. People can always surprise you.

Second best outcome seems to me that you have a negotiated agreement that is acceptable to both of you and good for the children. Why does your solicitor totally oppose mediation?

I would think mediation would be a good thing. If this goes to court, you and WH are two opponents and one of you may loose big time. And basically, an outsider decides your fate. In mediation, you try to come to an acceptable agreement for both. If you succeed in doing that, I am sure there would be less animosity between you and WH later and that must surely be better for the children.

Also, if the mediation does not work out, you can still go to court. So what do you have to loose (except some time)?

Upon reading your latest post, I note your desire to live in your village in Ireland and have custody (while WH works in Dublin and has broad visitation rights). Apart from R, I can see that this would probably be the best solution for both the children and you but I can imagine that this may not appeal to WH. If I'm correct, he really wants co-parenting. For him this would probably be easier in the village in France, as I understood (I think you wrote that) he works 5 min from home.

This issue would definitely come up in mediation and you should have very good arguments to make him see that Ireland would be better for the children. It's important to think strategically. You may not see it now, but is there a way that could make moving to Dublin acceptable for you so that he can have co-parenting?

I must go now but if it is helpful to you, I'll be happy to help you think of some negotiation strategies.

Take care,

I think we may have to open our minds to the possibility that one of the "militants" might be reading...

After that gangbanging little attack, well...

In the meantime the OW is probably still hovering in the wings getting a huge kick out of all the drama she has caused.

One possible long term scenario is that she is in line for the starring role of the wicked stepmother.IMHO the further away geographically the children are from the likelihood of this eventuality the better for all concerned.

The reason I posetd this was twofold:

First--When domestic violence drags in other family members (as it always seems to do), things escalate rapidly. This was not an attack by the mother in law- this was a three against one scenario.

I am worried that Tully may not realize the danger in these type of action(s). My friend, Martha told my sis repeatedly "Oh,..<blank> will never get away with hitting Carrie in my home". She simply did not see the danger.

Secondly, I was triggering. The stories are not the same, but the rapid decline of social order, feels very much the same.
It was like looking on thinking: "Wow, that was rude, to - wow, that was cruel.. hey, wait a min-- this is getting abusive! -- and the rollercoaster has climbed the hill and is now rocketing downhill. So for triggering, I am sorry and I hope this clarifies.

Tully, TA did you a GREAT favor. Can I tell one more story? (Badly written again): I apologise..

A man was walking with the Lord, and the man was angry because of his lifes problems and losses. He became frustraited and said, "Lord, why would you do this to me, give me these problems, your faithful servant?!"

"I see," said the Lord, "I will take your problems from you." He put the man's worries into a bag, and folded it shut. "Now," he said, "you do not have these problems. But since being human is not perfect and it is simply the human condition to have struggles, you must do something for me." He walked with the man to the top of a hill. Once on top they could see a valley filled with paper bags, they all looked exactly the same from the outside.

"I will trade you your bag for any of the other ones you can see."
The dude thought of it for a moment and said, "I will take back the bag in your hand. At least I know what is inside, and I know I can handle them."

Tully, this poorly written parable might be IMHO what TA was trying to do- give you an idea on what problems may be (from his wierd perspective) in WH bag. Those are the problems you may be presented with to deal through at mediation.

Your responses were right on point, contrary and well presented. I feel confident that you will be able to deal with any "curve ball" thrown at you.


This post is getting long. hang in there.

Silda, you offer wonderful practical advice on this. Why have you been so quiet before?!

You are absolutely right; a court-based solution is going to end up with one parent losing heavily. Mediation, with the goal of minimising the losses to both parents, must surely be better than that.

The whole point about mediation is that it is not binding, so it does not matter whether H's mediator is the militant Dad's Rights person. They have put the offer of mediation on the table because they would rather reach an agreement than risk an all-out court war. We don't know exactly what they fear they would lose; it could be that they fear tully being given custody in Ireland. It might not be that, but it must be something. They would surely not have offered to sit down and talk about it if they had the near-certainty that they would win in court.

So there is no need for tully to go to the meeting with evidence of assault, written statements etc. She only needs to go to hear their offer and make her own. If the two sides cannot move closer then they walk away and go to court. The courtroom is the place for the evidence of H's cruelty.

Save the battle for the courtroom. The mediation meeting cannot force tully to agree to anything she does not want to.

tully should seek clarification from her solicitor about why she is against mediation. I can think of only one reason, and that is that the solicitor thinks that tully will win a better deal in court than anything H can come up in mediation.

If this is what the solicitor firmly believes, then perhaps tully should plan to leave the meeting saying that she will consider the offer and make a decision in due course, then talk to the solicitor. As you say Silda, what does she have to lose, as long as she does not agree to anything, orally or in writing, at the meeting?

On co-parenting in Ireland: I'm sure tully will be along later to answer your question about whether Dublin could be acceptable to her, but I suspect that she wants to stay near her father because he and other siblings who live nearby will be able to help with the children on a daily basis. Even if H has 50% responsibility, on the days that he does not have them it would be hard for tully to cope with things like having one child ill at home while the others have to be taken to school and other logistics; to cope with essentially being on her own with the kids on her days. I haven't done it, but I think it would be lonely work even for 3 or 4 days a week. From what I can gather there are at least two brothers with families living near her father, which means cousins to play with for an hour after school, sisters-in-law to pop round for a chat and someone to keep an eye on the kids if tully has to dash to the doctor with one.

H, of course, would probably have OW living in. If he can be persuaded not to go for 50/50 but something more like 30/70, he could have the children in Dublin from Friday to Sunday evenings.

What always put me off that arrangement when I was thinking of it for myself was that I would get all the early-morning stress of getting to school on time, the homework arguments every evening, the daily arguments over piano practice, the ironing of uniforms and the packing of lunchboxes and the DROSS, while absent parent H would get all the stress-free side of parenting at the weekends. They would have 48 hours of unlimited fun, at the end of which he would drop the children with me for the grim part of the week. I would also have to lose them every other Christmas, and they would have great holidays with H and his large family and dull ones with me, as I have no family left. I could see a pattern developing quickly where I became Mean Mummy and H become Santa Claus.

But let's look on the bright side; if this happens to tully, having four children to stay would ruin H's weekends with OW, who would probably resent having four children interrupt her idyll with her soul-mate.

tully would soon become Fun Mummy and they might grow to hate going to H's.

ITA with your solicitor, moving back into YOUR home is smart. HOWEVER, please, please, watch your back. These people have proven to be violent and dangerous. I'm so glad your sister was able to intervene about the ILs (those people are nuts!).

Going to mediation is probably a good idea, if nothing else, just to hear what the other side is thinking. Doesn't mean you have to agree (if it works the same there as it does in the states). Is it binding? If you don't reach an agreement, do you go through the judicial process?

Stay strong Tully, prayers are going up for you and your precious kiddos.

Wrong. a mediator takes all family factors into consideration, and histories play a strong role here. I did not say for tully to have this info for criminal charges- but documentation. I told Tully to have this information available, not present it.

Yes, mediation is not binding, but in the states, anyway- the judges rely a great deal on them and their opinions. Maybe Tullys solicitor wants her to NOT go to the mediation so there can NOT be a mediation opinion given.

(My SIL was forced by her judge to sit down with the mediator 3 times in one afternoon and negotiate until a solution was found. Her H was a jerk in the meetings and the judge somehow knew about it (in the end) and it did not bode well for him.-- but they did settle a 2+ year long battle.
But this is in the states.)

She should listen to her solicitor- that means not to attend any meetings against her advice. That is what she pays her for.

Didn't Tully say that her solicitor has prior knowledge of this "father's rights group" political stance? Also, her WH first solicitor was a friend of Tully's solicitor, too? right?

Give this woman credit for having some knowledge/motivation that maybe we don't know about.

Tully, bounce any plan you have, or plan your WH or "mediator" puts forth by your solicitor. Before you make any meetings or take any actions. Do not take the advice of anyone here (mine included) if it is against the advice given to you by your paid counsel.

Mediation can't hurt at this point. The solicitor probably feels it's a waste of time given WH's behavior but I'd advise tully to try anyhow. At the very least, if the divorce goes before a judge she can say that she tried to come to an amicable (sp?) agreement with WH one last time. Agree with SC to save the battle for the courtroom. Conserve energy now and see what hand WH will play in mediation.

tully, has WH mentioned a willingness to leave the Village? As you said he's despised socially. Since he claims he wants the children to be unaffected by the D as much as possible, wouldn't he think his ill reputation affects his children and not want to subject them to any social stigma (in his mind)? Perhaps you can appeal to any logic he's managed to retain with this notion as to why a move to Ireland would be reasonable.

Long term, I still think the girls are going to resent their father for the breakdown of their family.