committed,

Thanks, it helps to be reassured that I'm a total loser. I HAVE shared ALL my struggles and given her the option to leave. She has chosen to stay, I'm not making her. And how is quitting the Man Up thing to do? Do you spread so much cheer in all your posts?

Yeah, it's an effort to meet needs, when you thought that it would come naturally at first. But marriage calls for extraordinary care, even if it takes trying new actions. I like how the MB concepts change your feelings to the ones you want, simply by choosing new actions.

So if I focus on my actions, feelings will follow at some point?

Oh my goodness I wish everyone "got it" as fast as you do!

If I had a dime for every poster who said, "But she's not being nice to me." "But it's so hard.""But what's the point if I'm not going to fall in love with her again anyway?""But what about her mean MiL, when's she going to get off my back?""But my foot slipped, and the sun was in my eye!""But what about her nasty kids, they'd drive anyone nuts!""But what about her dog, the thing never stops barking!""But what about her job, they keep making her work on the weekends!"

Please keep us posted! Care to share your plan to restore love to your marriage with us? I hope my friend NowIsTheMoment stops by, she wasn't attracted to her H at first, either, shared excuses, and then *made real change* and is falling in love with her H!

Yes! If you truly are not self-absorbed - i.e., all you care about is yourself - you WILL start to see the real her, and the looks kind of...morphs into the beauty you wanted.

In other words, the outer beauty you were looking for takes a back seat to the real beauty of her personality.

I really think that if your day to day life were different, your thoughts would refocus on other things that would lead you around to seeing a beautiful woman, kind of like coming around from the back side of a building and, once you see her again in the 'light' of the new life you have together, all you can see is the amazing person - and you LOVE that person and everything it means!

Didn't I give you that list of things to do to shake up your life?

Do you spread so much cheer in all your posts?

Yes, I sure do.

In my family and social circle, the party doesn't start until I arrive.

What if you aren't large enough for your wife?

If your Wife 'needed' you to have an implant that would enlarge you...would that offend you...or would you be willing to undergo that elective surgery?

You do realize that elective surgeries can go terribly wrong resulting in death, don't you?

I still think that you are measuring her against the women that you have seen in your porn watching.

committed

1. Give up ALL the porn. From every source
2. Quit ANY AND ALL masturbation
3. Put all that energy into dating your wife
4. Put energy into seeing what you can do to make your wife smile.
5. Put energy into getting to know what turns your wife on in life.
6. Notice 5 great things about your wife and mention them to her.

7. Thank your wife for things she does that you like.



Do this for 30 days. See what happens and what you feel after doing all this.

Dkd, GBH, catperson, committedandlovi, Bubbles4U, and others, I know that you are trying to help this guy, but ... OUCH!

Let me take on a totally different tack on this: From what I understand, having read HNHN, the chapter on EN of attractive spouse, I think that most of you are missing the point. Look, if a guy's EN is to have an attractive wife, and if he does not find his wife attractive, then that is a problem. It does not mean that he is a bad person, or a shallow person. Please do NOT judge a person's emotional needs as valid or invalid. They are what they are.

Similarly, some women need their husbands to make lot of money to satisfy their financial EN. The society has long characterized such women as gold-diggers, as women who just see their husbands as walking wallets instead of loving husbands. The society put these women in a negative light. There are numerous stories about how a "good" woman chose a seemingly poor man who turned out to be a billionaire, or how a "bad" woman chose a seemingly rich man who turned out to be destitute. Society is wrong on this -- her needs are valid, and for a husband whose wife has high financial EN better put his nose to the grindstone and make money for her. He should try to fulfill her needs, regardless of what they are.

Same for some guys who need sex all the time. Society looks down on guys as shallow, as horny boys. Again, society is wrong -- if his top EN is SF, then better work on finding ways on improving her work in the bedroom for him. She should try to fulfill his needs, regardless what they are.

Similar is this situation here. I have no idea why he married someone who did not find attractive, despite the fact that attractive spouse is high of his EN. It doesn't matter. It is in the past. He found himself in a bad situation, and blaming him for getting himself into it is worthless. The question now is what to do about it.

Firstly, they need to read HNHN together. From the beginning to the end. Thoroughly. So that they understand the concepts that Dr. Harley is trying to teach.

Secondly, if he is a loving husband, if he fulfills her EN, if he puts sufficient deposits into her love bank, then she should be more than ready to fulfill his EN.

Thirdly, he is not the one who has to convince her to get a nose job, or a boob job, or new clothes, or new makeup, or loose weight, or whatever. It is up to her to do that for him. Because she loves him. Not because he is "shallow", but because she wants to be the best wife for him that she can be.

Fourthly, there is going to have to be a lot of communication between them. If he handles this wrong, he will look to her exactly as he does to some people on this forum: as "shallow" and not as someone who has legitimate EN.

Fifthly, it will take time. This is likely not a 3-month assignment, but an ongoing project.

Good luck finally'.

Average Guy,

This man married this woman for all the WRONG reasons. He didn't like the way she looked then, and he still doesn't like the way she looks. She has not changed...she is the SAME...and he wants to change that. (ETA: His own words... Besides I'm getting old and wanted to be married (bad reason, I know). I thought that my lack of attraction would change as I got to know her.

I cannot help but think that he wants her warped into the images he sees in porn. (ETA: In his own words.... I think we are right for each other but my history of lust and porn are preventing me from seeing her in the right light. )

To 'expect' someone to undergo any type of elective surgery so that HE will be satisfied with how she looks is just plain wrong.

He took her as she was...why should he expect her to change?

HE needs to change...that is the only person he has control of anyways.

I feel bad for her. He married her under pressure and under false pretenses.

Again...he married her 'as is'. Now, he wants something different.

SHE didn't pull a bait and switch on him...if anything HE did.

He needs to be called on that


committed

Finallymarried,

Your answer to the above question illustrates PERFECTLY what your problem is. You did not ANSWER the question. The question was:
How would I treat her if I found her attractive?

The question you answered was:
How would *I* FEEL if *I* found her attractive?

All you talked about was how YOU FEEL. Behavior and feelings are NOT the same thing. At this point, you are so focused on your FEELIONGS that you can not see how it is affecting your behavior.

THis is ALL important. THIS is where your attitude change can become reality. Imagine that your wife is the most beautiful woman who walks the earth. HOW would you TREAT her? Would you buy her flowers everyday? Would you buy her beautful clothes or jewelry to help show off her beauty? Would you constantly help her in the everyday things of life? Would you continually remind her how grateful you are to have her in your life? The list can go on and on and on.

START DOING THOSE THINGS. You did get it when you said that feelings follow actions. Your feelings WILL follow your actions. it is one of the primary motivating principles of MB.

Make a concrete list of how you would treat the most beautiful woman in the world. Make it long, add to it everyday. DO NOT SHARE THIS WITH YOUR WIFE. Then start doing those things. Make notes to yourself and start noticing which of those things SHE is most responsive to. Stop thinking about how YOU feel.

This is much easier to do than you want to believe it is. BUT, it is is going to take effort and care on your part.

Good luck. Keep us posted. I imagine a lot of folks would like to see your list as you build it. We could help you with it.

FM, are you in love with your wife? Were you ever in love with her?

I agree with everything said here. FM is not "shallow" because of his EN of PA, his shortcoming was marrying her under false pretenses. And the solution to that is HONESTY. He needs to be brutally honest about his feelings about her PA and make DAMN SURE she understands that this is a top need and is it effecting his love for her.

RADICAL HONESTY is imperative here. In fact, she needs to read this thread. This is information ABOUT HER to which she has a right. She has a right to know how you feel about her, FM, and that you tricked her into marrying you. If you had told her all this BEFORE, she would have PASSED and saved herself alot of grief if she was wise.

Now, if you told me that as a woman, I would divorce you for tricking me. But that is her choice entirely. She can make the decision to meet that need, which will create love in your marriage, or she can decline.

I am also curious about the porn? How long has it been since you have looked at any kind of porn, FM?

Finally-
Are you going to be seeing a CSAT counselor? Or, minimally one who deals with addiction? Sometimes, run-of-the-mill therapists don't help in these situations. In fact, they might tell you it's ok to watch porn, and your wife should look/sound/dress/act like a porn star to try to please you.

Have you checked out recoverynation.com?

Work on yourself. Then decide about the marriage later.

My husband was in love with me, even when he was acting out. My husband had been using porn to self-medicate for about 18 years, which incidently, was nearly 2/3rds of his life.

When my husband was acting out, he didn't want to touch me with a 10 foot pole. He did not really have much desire for me.

Now, he's been sober for over two years and in recovery for a year and a half.

He is VERY attracted to me now. Our our SF frequency is good, and the quality our SF is amazing. We've been having SF for 12 years, and we finally started making love (as opposed to having sex) about a year ago.

Besides gaining sexual intimacy, we have gained non-sexual intimacy.

I also had to face the skeletons in MY closet because of discovering my husband's addiction. I'm still working on those. I'm really quite literally a much different person now than I was when we were married.

We have a lot to work through, and I understand the risks of living with a recovering addict, but today..today..the path we took has led us to a wonderful marriage.

There's a alot of hope for your future.

ETA: Even if you've been white knuckling looking at porn and have abstained for a while. It's no good. You need the other piece-recovery. It's like being a dry drunk.

With all due respect, that is a stupid thing to say. A woman who doesn't even meet your TOP NEED is not a "good match." What a horrible thing you have done to this woman by marrying her. And I am certain she feels the same as you, that she is stuck with this turkey of a marriage and doesn't want to back out. sigh....

I hope you realize now that you were not a "good match" and you really screwed her over.

Even so, I think this is salvagable, but I think it would a be a further injustice to her to just stick it out and flounder along in a marriage that has no love. The best solution for all would be if you could fall in love with her.

This describes exactly the sentiments of someone whose top need is physical attractiveness. They are visually driven so this is profoundly important to them. As FM stated here, it effects his feelings of love in every way. Ignoring that is his top EN will not make the problem better, it will make it worse.


Physical Attractiveness here

"For many, physical attractiveness can be one of the greatest sources of love units. If you have this need, an attractive person will not only get your attention, but may distract you from whatever it was you were doing. In fact, that's what may have first drawn you to your spouse -- his or her physical attractiveness.
There are some who consider this need to be temporary and important only in the beginning of a relationship. Some feel that after a couple get to know each other better, physical attractiveness should take a back seat to deeper and more intimate needs. And I've even heard some suggest that those with a need for physical attractiveness are immature or spiritually weak -- even subhuman!

But I don't judge important emotional needs, and I don't think you should either. The question you should ask is, what need when met deposits the most love units? If it's physical attractiveness, it should not be ignored. For many, the need for physical attractiveness not only helps create a relationship, but it continues on throughout marriage, and love units are deposited whenever the spouse is seen -- if he or she is physically attractive. "

FM, besides surgery, are there things that your W could do to be more physically attractive to you?

Have you ever tried to gently tell her what these things are?

A very good way to let her know what you LIKE is to compliment her on the things that she does that ARE physically attractive to you.

Let me tell you some things...my H is VERY physically attracted to me and I know this because he tells me CONSTANTLY. Now, I am sure this is not a total fluke.

You see, I LOVE it that he is attracted to me...I love when he tells me this, I love our SF life because of this, I love knowing that he can look at me at any time and I am meeting this need for him. It's an incredibly EASY one for me to meet.

HOW.EV.ER. I listen very, very carefully when he specifically mentions things that he likes...I know how dark he likes my hair, and which haircut is his favorite. I know what clothes he likes on me the best, and even which shoes!

I know that he loves it when I am working out hard and he can see it and feel it in my body. I pay CLOSE ATTENTION to these things because I know this is a high need for him.

It is UNFAIR of you to withold this info from your W. If PA is an EN for you, it is YOUR JOB to tell her how she can meet this need for you. Most women would JUMP at the chance to better be able to mee the PA need for their husbands.

My bet is that she would be GLAD to meet this need for you if she KNEW HOW.

One more thing...I strongly suspect that you are still looking at porn, and probably fantasizing about these types of women during SF and/or when masturbating.

This is sabotaging your efforts to be more physically attracted to your W.

Can you honestly answer if this is the case? When was the last time you looked at porn or fantasized about porn women?

finally,

You're getting a lot of advice, so I'm going to try not to duplicate, and just offer another perspective and maybe some practical suggestions that might help.

Like AG, I think the PA need is an authentic need that doesn't make shallow. My H has a high need in this area too, which is one reason he married me. I might not be everyone's cup of tea physically, but I am attractive to him. The question most people seem confused about is: Why would a man with a high PA need, marry someone they didn't find really attractive? I can think of a few possible reasons. Maybe you actually did find her fairly attractive (attractive enough, given the other needs she met), but your porn use has corrupted your ability to experience beauty and intimacy. Some people look at porn without it having too big of an effect on their real relationships....but for others, it desensitizes and becomes a replacement for real intimacy....or worse, creates a disconnect and comparison between these marketed images and the beautiful person they chose.

Since we all have a many needs, and since those are also very important, if your wife met enough other needs and made you feel good enough about yourself, you may have fallen in love with her....even if she didn't look like a porn star.

Many men are "attracted" to porn stars, but when it comes to marriage...they prefer someone more spiritual and grounded because they're also choosing a mother for their children, a friend, a partner etc. It creates a problem for them, however, if they find that the right person to marry, just doesn't turn them on.

My guess, is that your wife is spectacular enough on so many levels, and she fulfilled so many of your other important emotional needs, that romantic love was triggered anyway.

There are still large populations in the world that have arranged marriages. My next door neighbors are of Indian descent and they've been in a fifty year marriage that was arranged. The thing that is striking about this marriage, is the amount of love that exudes from this marriage. Obviously, romantic love was triggered AFTER they were married because their most important needs were met. I suspect that your wife has/will be able to meet most of your needs besides the need to look like a porn star.

I saw nothing in your posts to indicate your wife isn't actually pretty....only that she isn't big busted. I really agree with the poster who suggested you go to recovery nation for help with the porn addiction. The longer you stay away from porn (just like the longer a WS stays away from the OP), the better chance you have for seeing the beauty that really does exist in your wife.

As you withdraw from that addiction, the way you perceive your wife will change. You fell in love with her for different reasons, however, there is plenty she can do (if she isn't already fed up) that will enhance the beauty she has, and pique your interest once a healthy libido (involving a real woman) returns. What I'm suggesting is that as an addict, you are incapable at this point of being able to know what is or isn't attractive to you. Once you take off the "porn glasses", your wife may come into clearer focus.

From a practical standpoint, there are things that might help improve this situation, even though they're indirect. In fact, they work at this issue from a completely different physical direction. Somebody mentioned "recreational time". Modern research into neuroscience has revealed that certain activities trigger passion and pleasure. You can use those to enhance your physical relationship with your wife (and yes, that can have an effect on how you "see" her). The reason affairs and porn are so exciting is that they naturally involve some of these things....like elements of danger, new experience, and those things that are "taboo". If you incorporate those things in your marriage....it can create the same kinds of highs and idealization of marriage too.

So, how do you do that? Well, first....start getting your 15 hours a week of UA. Use the UA to your advantage. Remember this: Risky=Frisky. Do new things. Do physical things together, the newer, more exciting and more dangerous or taboo they are....the better. But do them with your wife. They will bond you and excite in ways you didn't expect. Even small changes when new or different, will create good returns. So break up your routine.

Somebody else mentioned charity work....and I'd like to second that suggestion. Feeding the spirit, reaching out to people who need help, doing community service....gives us a new appreciation for what we have. It helps us to see real beauty as a product of many many things.

Remember....what we feed, grows....so if you stop feeding just lust and start feeding your spirit....you may find that the way you see the whole world, and especially your wife....will change too.

I agree with you 100% Melody.

My comments were in no way intended to imply that FM should IGNORE this need. I agree that it IS a NEED, not just a desire or a want.

I would still like to hear from him as to how he would TREAT her if he found her attractive, not just how he would FEEL about it.

I am merely trying to point out to him that his wife might ACTUALLY be more physically atractive to him than he now believes she is. He has satiated himself with porn and has so focused on his wife's undesirability that he does not SEEM to be able to see her clearly.

Even if he does see her clearly and simply can not tolerate her appearance, he has said that he wants to stay married. I was hoping that my suggestions would give him a starting point to seeing her as more attractive.

And it is astonishing how much more attractive a woman(or a man) can BECOME when they are simply TREATED as THOUGH they are attractive.

I was trying to find the 8-cow post, but I can't seem to get the hang of making a link here anyway. If someone can find it and link it, it might give FM some ideas. It might show him that all is not hopeless. That HIS attitude might actually be able to accomplish something IN his wife.

I agree too that he should not have married her given these feelings, but apparently he has told his wife how he feels and she has chosen to stay in the marriage also.