Separating the person from the action.

Those are words I should paste up over my bathroom mirror!

Yeah. Love the sinner; hate the sin, or something like that. Can't remember how it actually goes. It's the ideal, the Christian way, but not as easy as it sounds.

At some point, he's sober and lucid and perfectly capable of ownership and reflection. Or...perhaps that's when he drinks - when he feels himself reflecting and not liking what he sees.

I find myself on the fence when it comes to situations like this. It is one thing when it is two adults dealing with the issues, but when children are involved there is a different spin on the situation, and the primary caregiver's tolerance level is understandably narrower.

A plant needs water and sunshine to live. A relationship needs love and respect. I think you can care from a healthy distance and continue being that person's friend, but that doesn't mean you have to stay or continue allowing them to stay and risk possibly enabling their poor behaviors in the process. Sometimes distancing yourself is the ultimate sacrifice. It gives that person room to self examine because when you stay they can keep telling themselves that they must not be that bad or you wouldn't still be there putting up with it. Gravey is that it may help preserve whatever compassion and love you have left.

OH...I sincerely hope that he comes back and gets the help and makes the necessary improvements to keep his family intact.

I do worry about what your plans may be if he doesn't and how you will know that a boundary has been crossed.

Let's say he moves back home saying he will get a job in 90 days and doesn't. What, exactly, will you do then? How will you enforce this boundary?

You know what, ears? I'm actually using my own filter on this.

OH, this is not a jab at you, more of an assessment, coming from here on the other side of this monitor. I used to be an underdog. I grew up an underdog. In high school, I was the kid everyone made jokes about. I wore hand-me-downs and mismatched colors and patterns and had never seen a hairdresser in my life. Never heard of conditioner. Exorbitantly shy. I remember sitting in lunch all alone, thinking about how to off myself, I was so alone. You can imagine. The only person I remember being teased more was a retarded boy, and I remember kids throwing pennies across the floor and watching him chase after them and them laughing at him. That was when I had my epiphany. I watched him, and saw honest joy at finding a penny. He didn't see their evil. Just a penny he could have. Then I watched them. Those people acted like they were happy, they laughed with each other, but I saw behind their facades. I saw that they were doing it to fit in (aside from the bully running it all); they wanted to be liked so much they were willing to be mean to another person just to be popular, liked. It was instant, once I saw it: I felt sorry for them. I realized I had more to be happy about than they did! They hated themselves so much they were willing to be a completely different person just to fit in. I may not have been popular, but at least I didn't have to change myself. (of course, that was before a couple of guys who I changed for)

Anyway, the point is that it enabled me to be able to look for the 'real' person underneath. To see that I don't have to hate someone, because hardly anyone is truly hateable. They just have issues. Like my H. Probably why it took me 30 years to get to the point that I hated him; I kept giving him the benefit of the doubt until I had no more of myself to give up, but it took 30 years of Giving.

I sense that OH, you didn't come from that kind of background. You seem pretty sure of yourself. Pretty happy with yourself. Able to look at the world from a position of self-assuredness. Such that, when you look at your H, you're not really...trying to find a reason to give him the benefit of the doubt, if you know what I mean.

Now before you get upset, that is NOT a recrimination, but an analysis. You seem to be struggling with why you feel the way you do. So I'm trying to say why I think you're having trouble. It's your background. Just like ears has more trouble seeing her H as not mean, while it's been easier for me, it's my background that enabled me to reach it first. My...humbleness. That humility I was talking about. The willingness, like in the 12-step programs, to subject yourself. Which is why I asked if you were at that point, earlier.

I really think that the humbleness is what allows you to separate the person and the actions.

I found myself awake at 2AM last night pondering this exact same question. I've played over various scenarios in my head. He could read the letter and not even respond to me via phone, email, etc. He's done that before. He could read the letter and get very angry and call me. I think I will tell him that we need to talk calmly or I will disconnect and then follow through on that. He could read the letter and say "let's talk when I get home" and I need to come up with the right response to this. Right now I'm thinking it's along the lines of 'there's no discussion on this. I can't stay with you unless these things happen at a minimum. So you need to make your decision now, while you are out there. Can you do this?' The problem with the way I've worded it is that it sounds disrespectful to me. But I can't tell sometimes--the difference between a boundary and a DJ! And though I've listed just 3 or 4 things where I've drawn that line in the sand, the truth is, I need a lot more from him than I'm getting. For instance, I need support around the house and with the kids--particularly while he's not working. Perhaps many of those could be addressed with his commitment to learn and follow the MB program with me?

And what will I do if he gives this entire thing lip service ,comes back and nothing happens? Right now, I don't have a clue. I'm hoping something will come to me over the next few weeks and that you wise people here on this forum can help me sound out my ideas.

I agree with 5/6, but for someone who is used to being in the mode of DJing and so forth, is it not ok for us to have a place to vent without having to worry about how they do it? It is a learning process, and can be very frustrating. Yes, we need to get to a point where DJs are not present anywhere, but I'd like to think that it's ok to make a mistake here while you're gearing up so to speak...just don't make a mistake out there.

Put another way, which option is better, eliminate all DJs about spouse everywhere but struggle with getting your feelings out, or eliminate DJs in front of your spouse and get feelings out where it's safe until you can get feelings out without DJing.

I think you know what to do, you just don't want to do it and are hoping there is some other less painful alternative.

Cat, I think that much of what you say could be true. I wasn't the most popular kid in school but I was well accepted, got good grades, was a great athlete and had lots of friends. I didn't have a core group of "best friends" but was more of a satellite--I was accepted by lots of different cliques and would hang with them all. But I've come to understand that I probably choreographed that situation as a response to my fear of abandonment that came about when my parents died and left me an orphan at the age of 10. It was easier to have limited involvements with various groups than to put all my eggs in one basket (of friends) and risk losing everything should they abandon me. I had the same approach to dating. I dated different guys, but my relationships never lasted very long. I would torpedo them before they got too serious. My husband was honestly the first guy with whom I had a serious, longer-than-6-month relationship. So you can see why I've been so reluctant to let this go.

And I think I understand a lot of what drives H and why he's where he is. Though he had his share of hard knocks as a child--parents divorced when he was young, his mother is a whack job, etc., he was the BMOC: captain of the football team. Incredible athlete. National speed skating champion. Incredibly good looking. No shortage of girlfriends or friends, etc. He never had a huge disappointment in his life until he blew out his knee early in college and saw his football career go down the drain. I don't think he's ever recovered. I know, from things he's told me that he's never mentally recovered. He had to leave school for a semester for surgery and rehab. He lost his scholarship. And during that time, he was in a very dark mental period would put himself in positions where he could act out his anger. I think it was his "golden boy" upbringing that left him unable to deal with disappointment later in life. We've had that conversation as it relates to DS14 and his girlfriend. H thinks he's too young to have a girlfriend and that she's just going to eventually break his heart. I think it's an age appropriate relationship and if his heart gets broken, better at 14 then at 34, right? DS would learn to pick up the pieces and go on. You can't shield your kids from every awful thing in life, though I would gladly absorb all their pain and suffering if I could.

I'm digressing. But perhaps you get the idea of what I think is driving some of the dynamic between us.

I agree with you. A lot of what I say here *is* venting and the DJs are inherent within that vent. In a perfect world, even our vents would have no DJs.

When we practice eliminating our DJ's, even here, then we start eliminating DJ's from our thoughts... and it's amazing how much better our spouses become and how much we start to see our own 50% contribution to the situation.

Truly, my relationship with my DH didn't improve until I started eliminating my DJ's *here* in my vents.

VERY important point!

Jayne, that's great, how much better our spouses treat us when we treat ourselves better. Let me ask you, too, though, as someone with younger kids, how do you feel when you the old pattern continue between your spouse and your kids? Or has that faded in your home to the same extent, too?

Cat, I'd ask you the same thing. Your H's AOs with you are much further and father between today, right? How about with your daughter though?

In my home, it's a ton better than it was, too, but it can still be a sore spot here at times. Like OH said, I know kids are going to face huge dissappointment in life, and better to learn how to deal with it than not. And I know the kids aren't going to face more than what they can handle, that's what they have parents for, to moderate that. But my question is, when we get peace for ourselves in our homes, is this peace gained at their expense, or does it spread to them, too?

I hope what I said didn't come across as saying the opposite of this. I guess I see DJing (too hot) and lacking boundaries (too cold) as the two poles in a sense. Here is where we can practice, and it is ok to swing back and forth a bit until we can find and stick with the moderate climate, so to speak.

I realize the two are not opposites, but for me anyway, setting a boundary makes DJs easier to do, and avoiding DJs makes it easier to ignore a boundary.

I guess it's a "Keep an Open Mind," case by case thing. I am really really happy for the better environments that you have.

I ask because I was thinking when I've had my stay-or-go moments, it would have been helpful for me to know if the kids in the situations benefitted to a similar extent to the adults. I don't just mean Cat and jayne. I know there are a lot of other posters here, too, who have worked through these issues, and I think it would help to hear if your kids have a better environment with you and your spouse than they used to.

Little TJ, hope you don't mind, OH. If you do, I'll take it out!

That's interesting. To me, it's the opposite. When I'm lax with my boundaries is when I'm most tempted to DJ: "Why did that stupid man ignore me for the whole evening when he knows I need to be up early? I TOLD him I wanted to sleep early and he KNOWS how much it means to me to talk a little during the day! He never listens to me, he never does what I most want from him in the whole wide world. And of course he'll want to have SF in the middle of the night, but where I'm supposed to get the 'F' part will be irrelevant again. He just wants me for my body and rad cooking skills, but any more than that and he'll choose the TV over me . . ."

On the other hand, when I say: "Hon, I've got an early meeting tomorrow and I want to be rested for it. Are you up for some bedroom sports right now or would you prefer to finish that movie and spend more time together tomorrow?" I feel fine no matter what the outcome. And if he still wakes me up in the middle of the night, I know it's OK to say no because I offered him an opportunity.

Of course, that only works if you define 'boundaries' in the sorely missed Myschae's sense of the word: Respectful and resolute actions you promise YOURSELF to take in situations that you don't like, that will protect you from building resentment.

If H and I had a healthier relationship, the kids would benefit, IMO. I don't think that negative stuff would slop over on to them at all. H and I would be able to resolve our parenting differences calmly among ourselves and present a united front to the kids. The way things are today, they are getting none of this. They scatter like the wind when we start fighting--who can blame them? They are not learning anything positive by watching H swear at me, yell at me, mimic my tone of voice, etc. And watching me break down into tears (haven't done that in a long time because I have no more tears left) or escalate an argument rather than calmly diffuse it---those aren't good lessons either.

In fact, the negative atmosphere for the kids is one of the biggest reasons I'm willing to let this marriage go if it comes to that. I think they will be much better off as children of divorce.

I'm still grappling with that gmail comment he made yesterday. I emailed him back this AM telling him he could print his boarding pass at the airport kiosk and he wouldn't have to forward the thing to his 'gmail account' (I didn't put gmail in quotes but I specifically mentioned it). He wrote back saying he felt safer printing it out beforehand just in case the lines at the aiport were long, kiosks weren't working etc. And he did forward it to his Yahoo acct (the one I know about), so either the gmail comment was just a mistake or it was truly a slip and he glossed over it. I'll never know, just as I feel I'll never know if he is slipping over the precipice into affair-land again unless I snoop or have him take a poly. I have no faith in his being upfront and honest about it.

OH, sorry for the delay and for the sudden drop off over the weekend. My firm decided to exercise a RIF (reduction in force) effective yesterday so duty called as a result.

I have a lot to say based upon a number of your responses, that will hopefully clarify and build upon the points previous. I'll preface this by saying that I'm going to challenge you to think about your own internal dialogue and your thinking and what your core values are specific to what was discussed surrounding Dr Schnarch and the process of differentiation. So keep those principles in mind with respect to my responses k?

First off, your fear is understandable. Most of us here have shared the fear of the unknown. Remember what I wrote regarding how we resist the process of differentiation, of real change? That our natural tendency is to resist change within the context of any intimate relationship because real change is very difficult. That said, what does it say to you, regarding your fear? Where are you finding your value? Is this fear defining who you are from the outside in? Or are you going to live based upon your own core values from the inside out? Are you going to define yourself by a reflected sense of self based upon your fears? Or are you going to define your values and adhere to them and face those fears head on?

Okay, on to the next post.

I like the way you address the SF issue. I also have a 'middle of the night' spouse and it's annoying on a regular basis. Well, things are really sucky now and SF is kinda sparse--in fact, he's leaving today for 3 weeks and unless I initiate something before he goes, it will have been almost a month without by the time he returns. I have mixed feelings about initiating. He hasn't lately and I know he probably thinks he'll get rejected--so I've been doing most of the initiating these past 3-4 months. I think it best if he leaves with the best possible mental outlook about our M, so it's probably a good plan to initiate something (since I'm working from home today) before he goes.

But as I said, I really like the way you address the SF issue. Puts it all back in his court and leaves you the freedom to say "no" without feeling guilty (my biggest problem!) if he chooses to pass up on the "now" in hopes of the "later".

I also agree with what you said about boundaries. Not enforcing them is leading to DJs in my mind. I really think if I were better at enforcing the boundaries and managing expectations, there would be a lot less mental DJing going on.

Sorry OH, more TJ.

WolfDeca, in your example I don't see any lax boundaries at all. You recognized that there was behavior, or potential behavior that was crossing your boundary. The decision then was to DJ it or not DJ it. For me, I would struggle to even get the boundary right in the first place, and then I would struggle with the DJ only if I got the boundary right. The temptation is to avoid the boundary (if I see it) and eliminate the chance of a DJ, since there is no judgment made at all, DJ or otherwise.

Of course DJs can happen when you aren't setting a boundary, and boundary problems can happen because you fear the results, whether you respond by DJ or otherwise.

Which keeps us returning to 'we do to them what we do to ourselves'. Respect yourself, and he will respect you, too. Or should.

I think the saying so out loud beforehand is key in every relationship. 'I've got a busy schedule this weekend so if you need me to help with the woods, you need to let me know this morning.' Then, 'I'm sorry, but I told you I was going to be busy, so I can't help you plant 3 trees tonight under the high beam light. I could have helped this morning, but I'm onto something else now.' That's what I've been working on, and it has helped a lot.

ears, H doesn't AO much any more. She pretty much gives him h&ll when he does, now, lol. And I told him last weekend that I wasn't going to referee for him any more with D18. So Sunday, when she was off at the mall for 6 hours (it takes an hour to get there) and he was pouting cos she wasn't at home spending time with dad, and started saying how he thought she was lying about where she was the night before and she was lying about where she was that day, I simply said, "H, I'm not in the middle between you and D18 any more; if you have something to say, say it to her; I'm not participating.' And he stopped.