There is no DJ there. The attitude is the same as one you displayed here in black and white for all of us to read when you first started posting. You have freely admitted that you judged first and asked questions later.

The second paragraph was a request. It could have been phrased a bit nicer but it wasn't disprespectful.

I am not DJing--with you, I am enforcing a boundary. I am here, as are most other people to learn, grow and try to repair a broken marriage or figure out how to move on in a constructive manner. What you said was the equivalent to finding someone lying on the street, injured and giving them a swift kick in the ribs while they were down.

Further, it was almost the equivalent to a "troll-like" post--you hadn't commented on this rather lengthy thread until now--why wait until you just had the sarcastic, biting comment? There were plenty of other places you might have been able to chime in and help.

Ooops, I stand corrected. I did a search and you posted twice on 3/6. I apologize.

I have a post on the very first page.

Just a comment for you . . . My WS was hooking up with the OW on his "business trips". In hindsight I realized that everytime before he went to meet her . . .he slept in the other room and wouldn't go near me! The PTSD of thinking about him packing and picking out clothes in front of me . . . to be with her!

Just amazing. . .so I know how you feel.

Thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot more sense.

Still waiting for you to acknowledge you might have not made your biting comment with the best of intentions.....

Ugh. He did start out in bed last night but was up around 2-3AM (as usual--he has chronic insomnia) but instead of just turning on the light or the flashlight to read as he always does, he took his pillow and went out to the couch in the living room. I went out there to get him around 5AM and he came back to bed.

I'm hoping that there's not more to this story. Such is the legacy of adultery. There might not be anything going on but it's way to easy to jump to that conclusion.

Then again, is it too weird that I'm about the put the equivalent of a "Dear John" letter in his luggage and here I am getting physically ill over some triggers and suspicions?

Does he take naps during the day? Since he doesn't work and all?

I didn't think it was a biting comment. I felt that you had set yourself up for rejection and came here to whine again about how awful your H is, when it seemed clear to me that you had set him up to appear awful.

My intention was to point out to you how it appears from the outside. Not to hurt you, I don't want to hurt you, and I surely don't want to continue seeing you hurt yourself.

Another thing, maybe someone can clear this up for me:

I say "It seems you set yourself up for that one" and it's a DJ.

But OH says, "This is the same attitude you had when you first posted the story with your H and the car seats--you were right, everyone else was wrong, load the torpedos, full speed ahead."

and it's NOT a DJ?

How does that work??? I'm confoozed.

No--unless he happens to fall asleep in front of the TV, which he turns on while he's eating lunch. But that would be a very rare occurence. It's more likely that he falls asleep in front of the TV in the early evening.

Weird comment from oceanspray about the luggage and packing. H just came down here to get my input about a suit jacket.

Exchange the word "whine" for the word "vent" and I won't suggest to you that you made another DJ. And yes, my comment about damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, was sarcastic, so that was an inherent DJ. Again, I apologize.

And with that second apology to you, I am done debating the merits of your contribution to this thread and whether or not your comments or mine were DJs. I think we are now down to beating the dead horse.

Back to business.

Thanks,

ITA.


I'm not blasting you (although I understand if you are sensitive to that right now) and I remember that, and I thought cat's DD18 benefitted from that.


ITA.


I'm certainly comfortable talking about it. Yes they have gotten absolutely drastically better. Even though DH still isn't much of a talker, just because we have some better history and have built up some trust, we are able to approach each other about differences of opinion and about concerns... let me rephrase: *I* am better able to approach *him*, since he isn't much of a talker and doesn't much worry about things. He doesn't always listen to my concerns *and you've listened to me when I've been at my worst with worry, and with him not sharing my concern at all - I'm just now realizing, is that what you're talking about? How recently I've gotten all upset and he didn't share that or address my concerns? I was absolutely upset - more at the outside situation than with him, although I certainly wanted more action from him. But, given that the outside sitch was going to happen, it was a lot better that it happened in the context of an improved marriage than in the marriage we had back when he was living in Canada. Then it prolly would've escalated to DJs and SDs on my part, followed by AOs on both our parts. And the outside sitch would've still been just as bad.

Is that what you were thinking of?

OH, venting here, at least for now, is better than venting to your H. Many here use this forum to vent. In fact, while it may be somewhat confrontational from time to time, the venting process is what allows us to "see" you better and to help you to work on you. So, I for one am thankful for the venting - I try and see the good in everything - even and perhaps even especially the bad.

Unfortunately, sometimes people also use this forum as a way to generate a feeling of superiority over their spouses. That is a DJ beyond any doubt. I hear you on how it is difficult to enforce boundaries and to know the difference between a boundary and a DJ. So, let's look at what a DJ is and what boundaries are and see if we can help to clarify things. From this website on DJ's:


Essentially, it is like one of the other posters said. A DJ is determined by how we approach an issue within our own heart. It is a heart issue. If we approach an issue with all humility (what the bible refers to as loving confrontation) then it is more difficult to come across in a disrespectful manner. However, if we are approaching an issue from a superior perspective in our heart - and attempting to "school" our spouse with our superior knowledge - then we're on dangerous ground from a DJ LB'ing perspective.

What are boundaries? Tough question and I don't have my Boundaries series handy. That said, a boundary is an invisible barrier that does two things primarily. One, it keeps the good inside of us - it keeps our core values intact no matter what storms are ongoing around us - and this same invisible barrier lets the bad out. We know we all have bad habits, selfish habits, bad behaviors, that we need to work on over time - to purge out of ourselves - and our barrier needs to let these bad things out rather than holding them in. Two, we need an invisible barrier that let's the good into our inside world. We need joy - and if this invisible barrier prevents letting the good in - then we die inside over time. We are social beings - and we need to socialize to allow ourselves the opportunity to let the good in. Unfortunately, as we all know, the bad stuff often attempts to sneek in with the good stuff. This same invisible barrier, or boundary, prevents the bad from getting in along with the good. This second barrier is dependent upon the first barrier. Why? Because if we are unable to establish our core values and hold onto ourselves - then we lose ourselves easily when entering into intimate relationships. Yes, we're talking about differentiation again here, along with boundaries. If we are unable to constructively enforce the first set of boundaries - then whatever we attempt to do with the second set of boundaries doesn't really help much does it? Since I'm a big fan of adages, to sum this all up, if we stand for nothing (first set of boundaries right?), then we will fall for anything (second set of boundaries here).

I know I had a lot of difficulty with MB early on because I felt empowered by what I was learning - but I felt empowered because I felt I could parse apart every single issue my W and I experienced and fit it into a nice neat box ala MB principles. This did nothing but infuriate my beautiful bride - because it came across as me being a know it all, and therefore came across as a huge DJ to her. We weren't conscious of this pattern occurring - and I wasn't able to really internalize the concepts in question and realize that I had to take the board out of my own eye before attempting to help my W with the splinter in her eye so to speak. I needed to work on myself first. It has been years in the making - but we're getting better over time for certain. That is another point that I really think is worth making here - it takes time - months, years even, to really implement these relationship tools and internalize them to the extent that we see a heart change - that we change our values from the inside out - that we actually experience an honest change in our core values. At least that's been my experience, YMMV. I had to learn to stand for myself on my own two feet with my own core values - and then learn how to interact well with other's, particularly with my beautiful bride.

OH, curious, how do you define what an apology means? Why do you think or feel that you suck at apologies?

WD, I'm copying your post over to my thread "Trying to Wait" on the Divorcing/Divorced board. I want to continue the conversation, but not TJ anymore.

Ok, just my two cents...

IMHO they are both DJs, HOWEVER... IMHO here on MB we often (or at least sometimes) accept DJs from each other. For one thing, the MB stuff is most appropriately applied to spouses - although some of the stuff can be useful in other relationships as well. Like getting rid of AOs. But, to some extent DJs (or at least J's, judgments) are necessary in everyday life, and getting comments from other MBers about things we might be doing wrong is absolutely most helpful. If we are to stop thinking that people might be doing something wrong here, then all we would be doing is hand-holding and sympathizing and agreeing at how awful our spouses are; not promoting self-examination and improvement of our own selves.

So we accept other ppl's comments on things they might see that we could work on.

Honestly, I struggle with this concept, as I somewhat disagree with it from a certain perspective at least. While we are more than the sum of our actions, to a great extent what behaviors we choose define us to everyone around us. If I hold certain values in my heart but my words and actions lend no credence to the values I hold, then in my view it would be perfectly acceptable and even desirable for someone to come alongside me and confront me on the apparent disconnect between what I say I stand for and the behaviors I choose to display to those around me. It is when we are put under pressure that we find out who we truly are on the inside. Like when we squeeze an orange - we get orange juice. When someone puts pressure on me - what comes out? I understand the concept of love the sinner, hate the sin, in so far as we are not to judge one another - but we are to lovingly confront one another - and I think in our society this concept of what I call being held accountable is in increasingly short supply.

Cat, this was an awesome example of differentiation and how we define ourselves. Those bullies and popular kids, were living from the outside in, versus from the inside out. Great story!

There you go OH. You're catching on from what I can see. I know it is hard. It is very hard, trust me it has taken me years of studying these concepts and really internalizing them and taking intentional steps to reinforce them repeatedly to break through my narcissim, and even now, it is a daily struggle in many respects. Be patient with yourself, forgive yourself first for all of the mistakes you've made, ok? To do otherwise, to judge yourself, is to condemn yourself and this will only serve to produce a defeatist attitude about yourself and you'll lose the race before you even start it. Be positive - don't let the storms all around you change who you are. Define your values and make a conscious decision every day in your own mind - heck even out loud in the mirror if necessary - that you're going to live by those values. Create a list - write them on a whiteboard - whatever works, and remember, two steps forward one step back - because as you've repeatedly said - you're not perfect. You will fall down, and when you do, get back up, dust yourself off, forgive yourself - ask forgiveness of those around you that you've hurt when necessary - and then move on with intention.

Hey All,
Don't forget that the BS here is having to trust her WS away from her for quite a while! This is a very emotional thing and I felt abandoned each time my WS left for a "business trip". All of the calls I made and pathetic texts that I sent were in vain. Because he was with the OW those times. After our first d-day he admitted that somehow . . . "I was always right!". My gut instinct was correct. I was the hero . . . on and on. Then there was contact through phone and e-mail again and the cycle of an EA started all over again . . . then a third time etc.etc. It just rips you apart!

PS - I also paid close attention to the clothes so I could give the PI a good description!

Oceanspray (love your juice, btw), of course this is an emotional time for OH. But if you go back through her posts, in December she was asking how she could force her H to go on this trip as a separation, because he was initially against going.

So I don't see this as an "Aw, poor dear, let's hold your hand," situation. OH is getting what she wanted here.