Yikes, I just got the ultimate rejection. H came back from the library--he was complaining about his stomach--he's on his second round of antibiotics. I sidled up to him anyway to see if he'd be interested in a round of SF before he left for 3 weeks and since it's been nothing since the weekend, I figure'd he be game.

Nope, not interested--he's got packing to do, he says--and he sits down at the computer as though something earth-shattering might have happened while he was gone (he spends 98% of his day either on the computer or in the evening, watching TV). And that damn computer is a huge trigger for me in the first place since it was the main venue of the EA years ago-and maybe even again now. Who knows. And I'm trying to tell myself--who cares?

So, the rejection--- that's a first. Or maybe a strong signal that no matter what my letter says, he's out of this relationship mentally and maybe even back to the old girlfriend for all I know.

Wow, cat, what a great update

You approach a sick person with stomach problems for some nookie, and are surprised by rejection???

Really?

It sounds to me like you set yourself up for that one.

OH, again, how are you defining who you are within the context of these statements? Your dignity is defined by how you view yourself. You are more than the sum of what happens to you. Let's see if I can paint a positive picture based upon what you said above. You are an honest person, you exhibit trust in your H despite the fact that you have reason not to - at least on some level. These are good core values. Don't question these values, rather stick to them.. OK? You are not responsible for what your husband chooses to do - nor is your reputation or dignity defined by his actions. I know during tough times it is extremely difficult to internalize these types of concepts - but try and remain conscious of your stated core values and don't let your emotions get the best of you. More to come later!

That's what I was thinking, too. Do YOU have SF when you're nauseous? I don't.

Hi cwmi, since we're talking about DJs this morning, how would you rephrase this one without the DJ?

Well, gee, he's been sick for over a week with this stuff (as have I) and he's been plenty frisky up until today. This is the same man who wanted nookie while he had pneumonia, the day after gall bladder surgery, while I"m on my deathbed being sick, etc., etc.

So wow, guess that was really stupid of me to assume that he'd be up for it now, right?

He's not nauseous. I did not even know he had some intestinal stuff going on until he said "no thanks". And yes, he's been plenty able to be frisky before when he's had same said intestinal stuff. This is a man who will be on his own deathbed and still want sex.

You may not be married to this type of guy--I am. It's very suspicious to me that he all of a sudden is not up for a romp.

lol, someone should come up with an anti-DJ translation book or website. It's like learning a brand new language.

You make perfect sense HH. I guess a good strategy might be a "fake it 'til I make it" approach because I don't feel this way at all. Yes, I am defining myself within the context of those statements. I see what you mean. It's hard not to do otherwise but of course it makes much more sense to approach things as you suggested. Thank you for sharing that. Another thing to cut out and paste over the bathroom mirror!

Absolutely. Ears, is this what you are asking - whether improving the marriage benefits the kids?


Actually, when I referred to eliminating DJ's even in my venting here, I wasn't saying I was treating *myself* better. It's a major attitude change, eliminating the DJ's. Rather than talking about all the things he is doing wrong, I see the good things about him. Rather than finger-pointing, I'm owning my own contribution to the problem. By eliminating the DJ's I see him in a totally different light. I see the good things about him; and for the bad things, I see the part I played; and for the neutral things, I stop assuming the worst.

Actually it turns out a lot of things I thought were bad turned out to be neutral; or at least are neutral when I start acting better. And a lot of things that are neutral turn into good things.

I'm not saying I *never* come here to vent. Yes, venting here is an order of magnitude better than an AO. But every time I vent here, it damages my attitude toward him; he doesn't seem as wonderful.

It's like Mark Twain said: "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

It isn't that Mark Twain's father actually got smarter at whatever age he was when his son was 21. It was all in how Mark Twain saw his father.

Same with DJ'ing, even if it's only in our thoughts. It hurts how we see our H's. It's absolutely amazing how much better husbands they become when *we* stop the DJ's. Yes, even the ones in our heads.


I'm not sure I understand your question. In what way is peace gained at the kids' expense? Is there something I'm not thinking of? Because it seems to me that a peaceful home would benefit the kids.

OH, I've seen this before on GQII, where the WS wants to be "faithful" to the AP.

How would you feel about checking the VMs just for today?

{{{{{OH}}}}} for the rejection. That feels just awful, doesn't it, especially if you just wanted to make some nice memories for during his trip and have the knowledge that you did your best.


Yeah, but I guess that's instinctive, right? You can expect or fear or recognise loads of things that you won't like. You can call these dislikes 'boundaries' if you want to.

However, things only become boundaries if you DO something when someone crosses it. Otherwise they're just pretty lines on a map, usually concealed in rivers, even, so most people wouldn't realise it when they cross one of your boundaries.

So, sitting around and going 'omygosh, any moment now (s)he's going to say/do something I don't like! I can feel it! Any moment now! And I'll be angry and I don't want to be angry so (s)he better not say it!' does not a boundary make.

Countries are really great with that. Some have more expansive boundaries than others, but all advertise it in some way. They are pro-active, by setting up border markers and guard posts, by having people going through customs and make sure they agree to certain rules: sure, you're allowed into my country, but only if your papers are in order or you're vetted by another country (that I trust!) that says your papers are in order. Additionally, here's what I want you to do/not do while you're here, and if you don't want to agree to this or break the agreement while you're there, there's going to be consequences in the form of this, that and the other.

Everything clear, everything calm, and nobody needs to judge anyone (let alone disrespectfully) to be able to enforce those boundaries. A country will ideally treat you the same, and don't have to assume that if you do something they don't like it's because there's something wrong with you - they just care about what you DO.

Just imagine the chaos if countries let people just trudge in and then by the time people've reached the capital city, they suddenly grab someone by the ear and say: "You crossed my boundary! You horrible person! I'm going to lock you up (or out) forever! How could you have done that?"

People could take some lessons from (the nicer) countries: advertise what you'll accept no questions asked, what you'll accept under strict conditions and what you'll never accept, and what you'll do if people break those agreements - leave the room, cut off the convo until a later date, divorce them, turn them in to the police, whatever you have to.

What do you mean you avoid DJ's when you avoid a boundary? I had a lot of trouble in the past with stating boundaries, and just let people walk all over me. As a result, DJ's would fly all over: the world is cruel, people are cruel, nobody cares about me, I deserve to feel terrible because I'm flawed and stupid, I have to make sure I never hurt others and am always perfect because people are fragile and weak and I'm the only one on the planet who is capable of bearing the pain of their weakness (sure, nobody could ever accuse me of lacking a certain flair for the melodramatic).

You don't have any of those thoughts? I'd like to hear how you do that, because that sounds really hard!

I'm not convinced that's what's going on. I have no direct proof that there is something amiss--I could very well be overreacting to the combination of all the triggers this trip generates for me, the ongoing trigger that is the time he spends on the computer, the 'gmail' comment, a comment I saw that he made to a friend about hopefully sitting next to a hot, divorced 40-something divorcee who will be fascinated by anything he says and then he added--yeah, right--to the end of that comment, and now this. I have spot checked his email, his web history and his voice mails (those he saves on his cell--I also have access to the phone logs) and have not found anything so far. But there is always a seed of doubt in my mind. He could be better at covering his tracks.

umm...uhh...well...

I haven't got a clue. I suppose I could have asked OH, "Do you think there might have been a better time to initiate SF to avoid a rejection?" but to me, that still has the underlying DJ of, "You chose the wrong time to request and got a predictable answer." Of course, we all didn't know that he has sex right after gallbladder surgery, so a little tummy trouble is nothin' to him.

I still think, based on this one instance, that OH could serve herself better right now.

Or perhaps you could have responded as WolfDeca did--precisely because you did NOT have all the information in which to pass judgement.

I think your most recent reply was just more of the same DJing with a bit of rationalization thrown in.

I'm feeling physically ill myself right now--it's the same feeling I had on D-day. It might be unfounded but the physical symptoms are the same.

I had the information you gave me.

Jayne what I'm saying is that when a lot of us got here, it was unacceptable how we treated our kids, and unacceptable how our spouse treated our kids. As we eliminated our LBs, how we treated our kids changed drastically, and how we interacted with our partners changed drastically as well. The family situation was bound to improve.

Cat's DD18's situation was a good example. Her DD18 in counseling brought up her dad's unacceptable behavior. And even if you don't take my word for it, I hope no one blasts me who didn't read that thread way back when. The counselor found it unacceptable, too, and told cat it's her job to protect her daughter from her H's unacceptable behavior.

Cat also got advice from others on the board who said the kids needed to learn to speak up for themselves.

Both cat and her DD made a consistent effort to identify and hold to their boundaries. Cat told us today that the effect has been positive, that the AOs are reduced and her daughter respects her own boundaries at those times.

My question was, how about with younger kids, like OH's DD9? If you are comfortable talking about it, have your concerns in regards to the kids been helped significantly as you and your H get along better?

I give up. This is the same attitude you had when you first posted the story with your H and the car seats--you were right, everyone else was wrong, load the torpedos, full speed ahead.

When you have some positive advice for me---even if it comes with a 2x4 (which is different than a DJ), I'll be happy to hear it.

How can you rephrase that without the DJ?