Do you plan on asking if he doesn't mention it?

I haven't decided. I will ask Steve about it next week if it hasn't come up by then.

I wouldn't. You've said your piece. If he chooses not to address it, the next time you talk about it will be when he tries to come home in 3 weeks and you've changed the locks. Until then, just keep playing his head in the sand game.

Stay strong!

I would. But listen to Steve.

"What are your thoughts about my letter?"

-not-

"Did you get my letter?"

I'm rereading all the basic concepts in preparation for my call with Steve next week. I have been thinking a LOT about open/honesty. Along with terrible boundary enforcing, I think this has caused me a lot of problems.

I don't lie and I don't hide things from H. But I guess it's as good as a lie if I find myself minimizing the extent of my feelings about something in order to avoid a fight or because the ugly truth of it is something more than I'm willing to share. Example:

About 3-4 months before our wedding, I got a job offer in another city. We'd both lived in that city before though not together and we both really liked living there. We both left for various reasons. I was not wild about the job, I was trying to finish graduate school, I didn't really want to go back to that city. I liked living there right out of college but I didn't want to make it my home. If you've ever been to San Francisco, you'd probably understand all this (with apologies to people who live there already). It just wasn't high on my list of places to settle down and eventually raise a family for a lot of reasons.

I experienced the "sales job" from H--a consummate salesman--and against my better judgement, I took the job and moved down there 2 months before our wedding. It was only about a 1.5 hour flight and I'd negotiated a really great relo package that allowed us to see each other every weekend--in either city. I had a temporary furnished apartment. But the job was insane, finding a place to live was difficult and fell on me, H would have to quit his job to move down there and hadn't been able to find one beforehand. In short, I really resented the whole thing.

That's one example. I carry around this resentment and anger about "having" to move--when in fact, I could have just put my foot down and said "no" . But my insecurity took over and I wanted to please H so I gave in. There have been many times over the years of our marriage when I acquiesced like this and I have no one to blame for myself for relenting. H didn't have a temper tantrum or threaten to leave me. He was just very insistent on why we should do what he thought we should do.

In counseling it has come up that he blames himself for us ever leaving the first city and for us leaving one coast for the other years later. He blames himself for his job history which played a large part in our financial woes and disasters of today. And if I can be open and honest with myself--I blame him too. But I have always hidden that and when he started the "it's all my fault" speech, I would say "no, I could have done XY or Z...". But in really thinking about it, I might have been saying one thing, but I really felt another.

I guess by writing that letter, I finally put my true feelings out there. I haven't owned up to the resentment and the blame game but I have drawn my line in the sand and stated what I need to have happen to remain married. None of that changes with all of this introspection. I still don't want the marriage that I have and if I can't have the marriage I think we can achieve through honesty and hard work and dedicated changes, then I'd rather be single.

You should blame him. So should he. It probably has been one of the biggest contributors to your problems, that he hasn't had to face this. Not blaming you, but him for not shouldering his responsibility (saying that a lot today). So, moving forward, stop covering for him!

Have you read my thread? It's huge, but so appropos for what you're going through. I've spent 30 years NOT being honest. My poor husband has had no clue the self-imposed misery I've been in. He's had clues (and chosen not to act on them, unfortunately), but he has never known the extent to which I blame him for my problems.

Truth is, they're MY problems. H sat on a second house for 4 years so we lost nearly all our savings, but it was ME who didn't stand up to him and tell him how ridiculous it was. It was ME who mismanaged my own bills so I couldn't carry his if I wasn't going to say anything, and had to quit my dream job. It was me who put myself into depression because I never told him how I feel.

All because I wasn't honest with him.

OurHouse, I was hoping that this would happen for you, that once you were out of the day to day fighting, that you would see things that were hard to see when you're just trying to get through the day hour by hour. I really hope this happens for your H, too, that he isn't focused on the OW, and this is really a time for him to slow down and hear the signals you are hearing.

This is from Jennifer's article Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn


OH, you know what has been helping me work through resentments? By yourself or with a friend, identify (1) what happened, (2) who did it, and (3) what was the injury. I was told to do this with a friend, because like you said, we can tend to justify to ourselves that we aren't bothered by something, that there was no hurt, when there was. Where a friend may tell us, you do seem upset, now. Are you sure there was no hurt there? And you may not feel as afraid with a freind there for support. I was told to do this on paper, because you will see patterns emerge.

Maybe the injury there was that you chose not to trust your own judgment? Or was it something else? Then (4) ask yourself, what is the message to you here? What were you meant to learn from this? Sit with it a minute, and then ask God, is this what I was meant to learn from this?

That's pretty much what I'm saying Cat. I'm not covering for him. I do blame him for not holding up his end of the log financially. My post was more about why I haven't TOLD him that, but rather mitigated it with "well, I could have gone back to work sooner, or taken a higher paying job, etc. etc. etc." All true---but instead of saying "you need to go out and get a job--any job ( which I finally said in that letter), I instead sat silently by, stewing in my resentment.

So while I hold his feet to the fire for his decisions, I am holding my own feet to the fire for the pot of resentment in which I sit, which has played a part in where we are today.

Do you get what I'm saying here? It's a subtle distinction and it's not letting him off the hook, but if full marriage recovery and rebuilding is ever to take place, then I have to acknowledge my part.

I also owe him some honesty about what will happen if he finds a job out there. Like Ears has mentioned, I have no intention of pulling the kids out of school, quitting my job and moving 3000 miles. So I have to think about how that is best handled.

yeah, I was agreeing with you. I think you're doing exactly what you need to do. And I agree with ears, it will be so much easier to think straight away from the daily struggle. That's why sometimes I recommend that people separate, to be able to regain that clarity - and find themselves.

Excellent idea reviewing the basic concepts!


I bolded what I feel is the important part. Yes, this is partially about being open and honest - but it's probably moreso about violating the POJA - which generally does mean we're not being open and honest - which violates the PORH. Remember that the POJA tells us never to do anything that we as spouses do not mutually agree to enthusiastically. More specifically, it is important that both spouses are happy and that neither spouse gets hurt. If one spouse "sacrifices" for the other spouse and does not do so enthusiastically, then the result is almost always resentment - because the spouse that agreed to "fall on the sword" per se gets hurt. In your example above, you got hurt, so you weren't really enthusiastic about what was agreed to - that is where you have to take ownership of what went wrong. Make sense? This is one of the most common problems that married couples have - they end up in a tit for tat arrangement for a lot of things - but the spouse that doesn't get anything gets hurt - even if they get to do something else that they want - they still get hurt in the process - and this causes love bank withdrawals over time that can kill our loving feelings for one another - because the withdrawals almost always add up to more than the deposits that are received in return (this is the basis of why it is so important to eliminate LB's - because we cannot make deposits quickly enough to offset the withdrawals that LB's cause).


Yep, sure enough, you have resentment and anger - which is exactly what the violation of the POJA tells us will be the case. Your H may have even used a mix of selfish demands and DJ's to "educate" you with his superior knowledge on why you should do what he wanted - he's only listening to his Taker when this happens (narcissism?).


IME what you did is common for people who have personalities that are "people pleasers". Rather than letting your H carry his own load and take responsibility, you shift the load onto yourself. This is different than sharing burdens together. We are supposed to share our burdens in life as partners - but we are each to carry our own load - these concepts are discussed at length in the Boundaries series by Cloud and Townsend - definitely worth reading if you haven't already.


OH, I would disagree that nothing has changed. Remember that within the context of an intimate relationship - whenever either spouse changes - the intimate relatiionship changes as well. It has to - because one of the two people that is in relationship has started to change. The introspection is changing you, and therefore it will result in changes in the relationship. Could be positive or negative change - that is the risk that we all face when we better differentiate ourselves - that we must face the fact that in the process of changing - we may lose the relationship - and this is a very difficult reality to come to terms with. Hang in there, we're all here to help you in any way that we can!

Also, I'll respectfully submit that it's not just the marriage that you think you can have and/or achieve, it's also the marriage that your H can have and/or achieve. The POJA applies here too - it's not just what you want for this M - it's also what he wants - and that's the difficult part isn't it? It's a tough line to walk IME. While I realize your H is not here - and that the view of your H that is generally portrayed here isn't good - I try and always remember that we're only getting one side of the story - and that your H deserves respect even in his absence. We may not like your portrayal of your H's behavior from what you're shared with us - I know I certainly don't, but if we engage in disrespect - then we are all guilty of DJ'ing on a grand scale in my view. Just trying to strike a balance here while also helping you to hold onto yourself during these difficult times. Please understand I am not saying to consider backing down - not at all - you must enforce your boundary - but do remember what we talked about with regard to the first and second boundaries. The first invisible layer keeps the good in and let's the bad out - it protects your core values. The second invisible layer let's the good in from the outside, and keeps the bad out - it's the layer that allows us to interact with the world in a healthy manner. For instance, you've said so far that you and your H have had mostly playful banter and surface conversations so far on the phone. In my view - this is good - let this in - absorb it and accept it for what it is. There's a real possibility that your H has read the letter IMHO. It's been a few days now. He had to of seen it. Maybe he did throw it away - but maybe he did read it. Maybe that's why he's treating you well over the phone when you're talking. He has to start somewhere if he's realized just how serious you are. Start small right? I know we're all suspect of this - but it might be a good sign how he's treating you over the phone. While you are obviously ready to discuss with him whatever was written - he may not be in a place mentally or emotionally to be ready to discuss what you wrote. Once again, that is something that should be respected - and if the line in the sand that you've drawn comes and goes - then there are decisions to be made on your part. If and when this time comes - there are no blanket right or wrong decisions - there are only right or wrong decisions for you. It is your life to live and no matter what anyone says here - you must live with the consequences of the decisions you make, none of us do. I hope this all makes sense.

I agree in some ways - it is good to get some perspective - which requires being separate. Absence makes the heart grow fonder right? As spouses we must each spend equal amounts of points being together verses being apart. It's all about balance.

As all of your posts do, HH--it makes PERFECT sense. Thank you.

H just called again tonight. More light conversation about what he's been doing, what we've been doing, his evening out with some college buddies last night, the plan for the "intervention" with his mother (getting her into some sort of assisted living without physically forcing her!), etc. He got a @$^ $450 speeding ticket last night and he's darn lucky he didn't get a DWI while he was at it. I've never seen him act intoxicated but I'm sure he had enough last night that he would have failed the breathalzyer. Other than the financial impact, maybe that might have been a good thing? Anyway, we spoke about him trying to get a court date to at least present a case. The speed limit changed 3 times in the course of a mile, he was semi-lost, etc. We can't afford that ticket or the ding on our insurance premiums.

He never mentioned the letter so once again, I did not bring it up. I guess I don't have to think about this yet since he only just left, but if we're getting close to his return date and he's not brought up having seen the letter, I"m not sure what to do. I don't want to launch into heavy relationship talk over the phone but in my mind, my old marriage--the one we had as he got on that plane--is dead and either we birth a new one or we go our separate ways. I don't know how to communicate that to him if he never brings up the letter.

The other elephant in the room is the fact that he's in a full court press for a job out there. I'm not sure he's going to have any more success than he's had here over the past year--the economy is worse there--but he is pretty well connected which is something he doesn't have here. But the elephant is what happens if he gets a job? I have no intention of quitting mine and uprooting the kids.

I hope you didn't say 'you need to'. His assessment of his needs will differ from your assessment of his needs, and it entirely up to HIM to work out what HIS needs are.

I can't think of a single occasion when it would help a M to tell one's spouse "you need to..."

re blame - your H owned up to his part in the financial problem. The largest part.

There's no NEED to judge or blame one's spouse. Let him judge himself.

re POJA...

Briefly, I sensed 'my way or the highway' thinking here. POJA and the Guidelines for Negotiation (including brainstorming ) can throw up some surprising and successful solutions to issues. Not all issues, granted. But if you enter the negs with an 'either / or' mindset, a good outcome is less likely.

No, I did not say "I need to". I posted versions 1 and 2 of that letter--neither said "you need to" and in the final draft, I even took out the "I need you to" and replaced it with the fact that our financial situation is frightening me.

RE: POJA--I don't know that I agree with you here. I am trying to figure out boundaries vs enabling and I posted my thoughts today about how we got over to this side of the country and how conflicted I was over not speaking up and allowing myself to be swept along with the tide. That said, POJA on non-boundary items is the standard to which I aspire but communication needs to be restored before POJA can be attempted. We are a ways away from that.

On a completely different note, I wanted to post that in recent months, this lapsed Catholic has found herself back at church. Isn't that weird? Here I am really ready and willing to take that final step if necessary and I'm back in the fold of the Church?

OH, do you mean "I have no intention of ever moving under any circumstances" or "I have given it thought, and I am willing to talk reconciliation, but me quitting my job that has provided sole finacial support for our family for some years now for a new one he gets and moving our kids is not something that I'm enthusiastic about today." I assumed that you meant the latter, but I hear how it can come across as the first one.

It was the second, Ears. With the added caveat of I would also prefer to wait until DS14 is out of high school.

No disrespect intended, but there's no way in hades that I would pick up and move to satisfy a husband who hasn't held a steady job in 5 years. If he was a H like yours or mine, ears, I'd consider it. But not one who never takes job because they're 'beneath' him. I'd just be waiting for him to decide that this job isn't good enough, either.

Yes and that's why I won't give up my job and pick up and move. But I'm really trying to stay away from the DJs, both verbal and mental. I'm tired of getting 2x4'd here.