Here:

HH, I totally agree with you on this. My best periods of growth have been when I've sought out effective accountability.

But as far as providing accountability for our spouse, I think that's a big burden to bear alone, depending upon the situation. Like you mention narcissism, I would guess that may do better with more accountability than your W alone provides. Which is why a lot of folks find that outside help like MC or IC provides more accountability than the spouse provides alone.

Jayne, the time I was thinking of was some time before your last move, when you were all in the same house. I am so glad that things are better today. That's what I was hoping this morning, that cat's daughter and your boys would be building stronger relationships with the spouse that isn't here, too. But I don't want to assume, so thanks for sharing that.

HH, I certainly struggle with it as well. I try and depersonalize it, so that my subject desire to judge or protect myself doesn't cloud things. The reality is that when you say that a behavior is a person, then you are saying that they aren't capable of change. It's like saying that someone who DJs a lot is incapable of doing otherwise. It could mean that someone is doomed to life of failure if the current behavior points that way.

Yes, people tend to repeat behavior, and we should protect ourselves from that. As well, sometimes the wounds are too deep and even though a person may change, remembering how that orange used to squeeze is too much to deal with.

1. I had proposed him going indefinitely, even finding a job there and THEN we would discuss if we would end the enforced separation. THAT'S what he was objecting to. The 3 week trip was one he jumped on right away.

2. To all: Thanks for continuing the great thoughts, advice, prayers, hand-holding when necessary, respectful 2x4's when necessary, etc. There are a bunch of posts I don't have time to read thoroughly right now--leaving in a few for the airport.

H capitulated on the SF thing so all is good there. I'm feeling a bit--guilty?--- nervous and anxious about the fact that I just put that letter in his luggage. I am praying he takes it to heart and doesn't rip it up and that somehow, it winds up being a catalyst to us being in a better place.--together hopefully, with a different, stronger marriage. But apart if that's what it takes too.

This is the firmest line in the sand I think I've ever drawn. It's probably an understatement to say I am WAAAAY outside my comfort zone right now.

Back from the airport. Trying to calm myself down about letter in luggage. The morning turned out to be fairly stress-free and easy and of course, I second guess myself. I am glad that I had so much help wording it so that it was firm, yet not disrespectful in any way. I think I have discovered that my issues with boundaries come from my fear of abandonment. I think that by enforcing boundaries (of which this letter is a great example), the people I love will leave me.

OH, you may have already answered this, but what IRL support do you have? What a tough thing to deal with today!

His aunt and uncle (he's staying with them part of the time) have been great. I have one friend who lives long distance who is suffering some of the same things and I talk to her. But no one else, really.

I probably need to keep reminding myself that I want a healthy marriage or I don't want the marriage! I'm afraid he'll read that letter and say 'how could you write this after the nice time we had together this morning/afternoon, ride to the airport." But those are the things I'm trying to preserve, not destroy! And I can't live with the other things. So I had to draw a line. And I'm sooooo uneasy about doing it. ARGH!

What do you think about getting to a meeting tonight? Would it add to the stress or relieve it?

Do you have a faith community to lean on?

I actually went to church for the first time in many months--last Sunday.

We're Catholic. Not sure I'd get a whole lot of support from a priest on potential separation or divorce.

I have to work tonight, unfortunately and even if I didn't, DS18 is working, DS14 has religion class so DD9 is here with me (this is the second job I took for 8 hrs week--I do it from home but I need to be by the phone).

Ah, misunderstanding. Let me clarify. I did not mean that a behavior is a person. Notice I said the behavior we choose defines us. We do indeed have a choice, some of us just never learn not to make bad behavioral choices for most of our lives to date (myself included in many humble respects).


I agree - sometimes there is so much "bad" in the past that it drowns out any opportunity for a brighter future. Miracles do happen though. That said, I think you hit on an important point that I think is worth talking about here for OH.

OH, when I asked you why you feel that you suck at apologies, I had a reason. DKD hit on it here with the statement about repetitive bad behaviors and our need to respect boundaries and protect ourselves. I'd submit we're not just protecting ourselves, but also any future for the relationship - we must protect what love we do hold so that the repetitive bad behaviors cannot destroy what love is left. I'm talking about the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation here, which are two very important concepts to understand when it comes to boundaries.

If you are having difficult apologizing, it may be because you think that an apology means you've both forgiven and reconciled with that person through the apology - when in fact the two actions can and in some cases need to be independent of one another. Forgiveness is for you. It is the conscious decision to no longer hold against the other person any anger or strife in your own heart. It frees your heart of the need to continue to hold onto the issue at hand with respect to the person. Forgiveness, when we think about it, must require only one person as there are many circumstances, such as death, distance, disability, etc., that can easily prevent us from ever being able to confront the other person. Actively exercising forgiveness also allows us to protect the love that we have in our hearts for the other person. Reconciliation is what requires two people. We can forgive - to cleanse our hearts and our minds - but choose not to reconcile. Reconciliation requires fruit in keeping with repentance. We need to see true change in some cases before we open our hearts to the other person and allow them back inside of our second boundary (per my post above). We can forgive someone, such as our spouse, without reconciliation. For instance, OH if your H is still drinking, you can forgive him, indeed many many times, but you do not have to reconcile in this area until you see real change.

I say all of this because I too struggled for a long long time and to some extent still struggle with the "I'm really sorry for what I did, but..." problem. What I've tried to do is to realize that oftentimes what I'm unconsciously doing is confusing forgiveness with reconciliation. The "but" part is usually because I want to forgive, but I don't want to reconcile because I don't feel as if we're on the same page over an outstanding issue or problem. We are either unable or unwilling to engage in healthy negotiation for whatever reason. So, I try and remain conscious of saying I'm sorry from the perspective of forgiveness - but also realizing in my own heart and mind that we still need to reconcile. This usually results in me saying that I apologize - but we need to discuss the issue at hand further either now, or at a later time once both of us have had an opportunity to think and come to some conclusions on how we both feel. This is particularly important for me personally to do because my beautiful bride is the type of personality that needs some time to really analyze her feelings and come to a good decision - otherwise I can press her to make a decision - and she will in her "people pleasing" mode seemingly agree wholeheartedly - but then later will reverse course after she's had sufficient time to really analyze how she feels. I say feels because my bride is a feeling oriented person, versus a logic oriented person when it comes to decision making. This issue culminating in costing me some 8500 dollars at one point on a downpayment on a house that I really wanted and pushed her on, only to later find out her heart wasn't really in it. Good stuff eh?

Lastly, I'll say that the exercise of forgiveness and reconciliation is not an all or nothing proposition with respect to trust. Trust can and in many cases should be managed within the intimate relationship based upon behavior. For instance, my W has ADHD tendencies and is the type of ADHD personality that is very impulsive - not a long term planning bone in her body - but is very list oriented and organized for day to day tasks (she is also very spontaneous and very passionate which is part of what I love about her). Her specific tendencies result in her being able to spend extraordinary amounts of monies on credit cards without realizing how much she has spent. As a result, she does not carry credit cards and uses an allowance to control her spending. For a long time, before we came to understand her ADHD struggles - we fought tooth and nail over money. I would tell her that I would forgive a specific overspending incident - but that I was not ready to reconcile because she was unwilling to enter healthy negotiation on how to limit her spending for the welfare of our family's future. Oftentimes the response I would receive is that I either trust her or I don't. My response was that I loved her dearly, but I could not trust her with credit cards - in this one specific area. Trust is not an all or nothing proposition - much as we would like it to be.

I can love someone yet have areas that I need to protect myself in, to not reconcile over, because that same person exhibits hurtful behavior and refuses to entertain any positive change. Once we see real, positive, substantive change, then trust can be extended, then we can reconcile. In comparison, if we both forgive and reconcile at the same time no matter what, our love for the person will be destroyed quickly - because we allow them to bypass our second boundary over and over again - and hurt us over and over again - until our love bank is in the red. If we protect that second boundary by forgiving, but not reconciling until we see real change - then we protect what love is left in our hearts - until the person in question decides to really change - whatever method they choose. Sorry for the long post, I hope all of this makes sense.

HH, you hit the nail on the head. My IC pointed out something similar to me when I was having trouble with the concept of forgiveness. She said that forgiving doesn't mean you have to forget. Yours is a similar idea in separating the forgiveness from reconcilliation. If I can wrap my mind around these concepts, it would help me improve my apology skills.

Do they have a women's group? I wasn't thinking so much a group to get advice in your situation but rather to get with a group of peaceful women. If that's something that would appeal to you. It's been a real help to me to have a strong group of folks I can talk to, outside of work. It helps with perspective.

No--our church doesn't, but it's a good thought to maybe scout around for some sort of support type group. I dropped IC because my insurance changed and the counselor doesn't take my new insurance.

H just texted me. He's on the ground at his destination. They are 3 hours earlier so he said he wasn't sure if he'd call. He knows I'm up at this hour so it's most likely a convenient excuse but I don't blame him. I didn't call back to answer his text--I texted him back. So neither of us probably wants actual conversation right now. This was supposed to be a separation of sorts! Neither of us signed our txts with "love".

Letter is in his luggage which was checked on this end. Don't know if he'll even see it tonight. I'm a bit on pins and needles.

Don't stress it, OH. You did what you HAD to do. Don't cave now. Don't let that female part of you tell you that you have to be the nice guy and give up what you need, to make sure that he stays happy. The man hasn't worked in 5 years! What kind of husband does that?! Respect yourself, OH. When he contacts you, just say to yourself, 'I deserve just as much as he's been getting from me.'

Thanks Cat. I'm going over all possible scenarios of him finding that letter. Will he call and say let's talk? Will he call and say let's talk about this when I get home? Will he call and say "thanks for ruining my vacation upfront"? Will he send me an email? Nasty email? Text?

I have no clue. I think his emotional make up is really screwed up right now between not working, what he sees as life in a he// hole and so on. So even if I thought his responses were sometimes out of whack before, they're likely to be really out of whack now.

I thought about just making myself unavailable but this is not a Plan B. It's a Plan B*oundary!

What do you all think of my calling the Harleys? I have the $$$ together and I was thinking that perhaps Steve or Jennifer could hopefully reassure me I did the right thing with the letter, help me formulate my response to any reaction from H, help me put together a plan to get him/us into coaching with them--even if we do wind up separating.

OH, I think it's a great idea!

Ears, you've spoken with them, right? Can you tell me a bit about what to expect? How long would I have to wait to have my hour? Can I request one Harley over the other (I don't have any preference but if H does get involved, it will probably go down easier to be dealing with another guy)? Will an hour really do it--initially? Help me get my questions answered, formulate a plan? And I'd love the share the letter I wrote to H with the Harleys. Do they do things like that---can I forward that letter so we could discuss it?


And I guess I should add--given how close I am teetering to the edge of separation and possibly divorce, and maybe H is too, is this the time to even call?

OH, when I called, it was kind of like an intake, only he gave me insight as to these issues as we went along. Not like, "Oh, that sounds very frustrating." More like, "Yes, that is an issue. This happens all the time to folks, and this is how the problem starts, and this is how it got worse, and this is what folks do to get past it." Very similar to how the articles go, straight to understanding the problem and the solution. And it was so encouraging to me to remember that we're not alone with these issues, that folks successfully resolve them every day of the week. It really brought me back to today, where I can build consistency chosing actions that will help me and my family.

I think I just talked myself into calling!