Mel, I'm just wondering if infidelity is a problem directly related to monogomous marriage as we know it. OR, is it a western- society thing? OR, are all marriages of all forms subject to the pain of infidelity? Basically, is it human nature to cheat, regardless of the circumstances?

Oh my God. Man. Doesn't that just make you feel like crying. How horrible. Poor little girl.

As much as I moan about the USA, I am so very, very thankful my little girl lives here.

Tabby,

If it was basic human nature to cheat, why would it cause us such pain. We are going against our nature, if it causes such destruction, no?

If God created us in his image, then it just stands to reason that cheating would be against our basic human nature.

I will never, ever for as long as I live, believe that it is in our basic human nature to be non-monogamous (sp).

It is simply too destructive to family and society.

Or it could be that women know better...who wants 5, 10, 15 husbands at one time?

Of all the instances of polygamy in western society I've heard of, they have all exploited young girls and/or women. It's probably true for non-western societies as well but I don't know. The wiki article discusses availability of resources and other things that aren't even a consideration in western society.

Regardless of the why's or wherefores of a polygamous society, these people are still people and must have emotions and feelings and surely they must hurt at times. And for all the problems that happen between 2 people in a monogomous marriage, they must be greatly compounded the more people you bring into it.

As far as animals go, I've spent a lot of time on farms and have seen a lot of animal behavior. Some mate for life. Some are outright promiscuous. I've seen homosexual behavior in more species than a regular city-dweller knows exists. I've also witnessed more caring, committed, monogomous relationships between a pair of animals than has never been experienced by a human being. You just can't compare people to animals in this light. There are just way too many variables including different species, life-spans, lifestyles, number of live births per litter etc.. that have no equivalent among humankind. Not to mention, there are few animals around these days in a "natural" environment anyway and you have to take into consideration that any behavior you observe is affected by their confinement and domestication.

But, if you recognize no STANDARD of infidelity, then isn't that a moot point? That doesn't mean it "doesn't happen" in a polygamous culture, just that it is defined as an acceptable way of life. How can you conclude this is a "western" problem if your point of comparison is a society that practices and accepts adultery as a way of life? That makes no sense.

That is like comparing the US to a country that practices human sacrifice and saying we have murders and they don't. Both countries have murders, one just defines them in a different way.

I am just not getting your point, Tabby. Sorry..

weaver, my poor niece was traumatized by that horrendous barbaric scene. I will never get it out of my mind either. They are barbarians there.

Its human nature to SIN, period.

I really would like to keep this to a sociological/anthropological discussion rather than a religious one, however, you do have to acknowledge that basic Judo-Christian beliefs state that man is imperfect and is tempted by a whole bunch of things, not just infidelity. One could ask why people steal if it is against our basic human nature.
I'm not sure about human nature, but I do know that *I* personally cannot be non-monogomous. And I agree it's destructive to family and society. I'm just recognizing that I have a specific definition of family based on where I was born and how I was raised - and by extension, I have a definition of a functional society. I do recognize, however, that there are other societies in this world. Again, I'm asking these questions from more of a sociological perspective. Even if there's a society where the pain of infidelity does not exist in exchange for polygamy, I'm not packing up to move there.

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I don't thats a realistic or a respectful expectation, since adultery is a moral issue and for many, the source of morality IS Christianity. To ask Christians to leave out Christianity is to ask us to leave our world view at home when you are asking questions about our world view.

That would be like us asking you to leave your secularism out of the discussion, a form of discrimination. Not very realistic.

I haven't made any conclusions. So far, everything I've written is a question. Let me rephrase - IS there a STANDARD of infidelity in a polygamous marriage? In other words, even though a man can have more than one wife, can he just sleep around as much as he wants? Or is there anything holding him at least to the wives he already has? These cultures aren't random - they do have rules. I just don't know what the rules are. Perhaps all a guy has to do to take on another wife is pick her up at the bar - I honestly don't know.

Absolutely except from a different perspective. In this case, westerners are looking at the human sacrifice society as an evil people and want to stop this. However, you just can't walk in and say "Stop murdering" to people who don't believe they are committing murder. You have to understand what is behind their beliefs in order to find a way to change their behavior. As to the polygamous societies, I'm not suggesting that they change - they can do what they want - I just want to know if they experience the same problems we do. I'm sure they have other problems - logistically I can't see how they don't - but do they have THIS problem - Infidelity. It's a simple question, really.

Survival, maintaining a patriarch or old school customs. If any of these factors fit, then most if not all of the wives aren't marrying for love anyway and problably don't care about being wife #8 or wife #13. If there are multiple wives, perhaps wife #1 cares the most about status and not so much about sharing the H.

Merrium-Webster Online Dictionary Definition:

This is what I mean by infidelity or adultery. There is nothing religious about it. Trust me, non-Christians can feel the pain of adultery just as deeply as Christians.

I am not following you. Are you saying murder is not evil? And if not, why would I want to "change their behavior?"

And actually, one does not have to "understand what is behind their beliefs" in order to change someone's behavior. That is not an accurate statement.

This is what I mean by infidelity or adultery. There is nothing religious about it. Trust me, non-Christians can feel the pain of adultery just as deeply as Christians.

[/quote]

Actually it is a Judeo-Christian construct and is considered a SIN. Even so, adultery is a MORAL issue, and as I stated before, my worldview - my moral foundation - IS Christian.

So, no I can't leave my worldview at home anymore than you can leave yours at home.

This forum does not discriminate against Christians so there is no reason, other than discrimination, to leave one's Christianity out of it.

It sounds like you are saying that only the views of "non-Christians" are valid and that Christians are not welcome to express their opinion on adultery. Is that what you are saying?

I think there are a few people here who have mentioned having dabbled, at some point, in 'alternate lifestyles'. I'm one of them, and speak only for myself. I suspect you may find a bit of what I say surprising.

After my ex-wife's first affair, we dabbled in the 'swinging' lifestyle. We were fairly mild, in that we only saw one other couple. Some folks get way out there crazy, even more weird than you might already think, but we weren't interested in that sort of thing. It was something we thought to dabble with, considering things were already broken. I don't think we would have ever gone there had she not already stepped out. The affair really took away the 'sacred' feel of things for me.

Our agreement was very simple. It would always be WE, never any independent stuff, and if anyone was uncomfortable, it would end immediately.

We became fast friends with the other couple. The relationship was very different than I expected. To this day, my best friend is the other guy from that couple, but we are both divorced from our wives at the time, and have moved on to other relationships, and want no part of those things anymore. My tale, you can find in my post history. As for him, his wife became obsessed with pressing the boundaries, to the point that it became more important to her than her marriage and her child. She was deceiving him and meeting strangers, all the while lying to him. He ended up giving her an ultimatum: we either stop this, or I am ending this and finding a wife who will be monogamous. She chose the latter.

What you may find surprising is that both he and I felt, for various reasons, dragged into the situation by the behavior of our wives, rather than being the instigators. For me, I know it was at least partly with the idea of evening the score for the affair.

To answer your question about infidelity, yes, it still is a valid concept, at least if there have been any boundaries set by the people involved. It still hurts just as bad. Having been betrayed in both situations, I might even go out on a limb and say it hurts WORSE. It did for me, and it did for my friend when it happened to him later. He was absolutely devastated. Why? Because, even with alternatives, our wives STILL chose to betray us, and it could not be attributed to lust. It seemed that the betrayal, not the sex, was what they actually craved.

In the end, I think most BS's will agree that the WS's sexual behavior was not the source of the greatest pain: it was the lies, the deception, the certain knowledge that the person they trusted so much stuck a knife in their back, shared their secrets with others, made them less than an equal partner. It was the gut churning fear of trusting that person again, knowing what they were capable of.

I think, as some others have said, that monogamy is NOT the 'natural state' of people. We wouldn't have marriage at all if it was. We would not need to swear oaths of faith if we did not recognize the natural tendency is not to keep faith. But 'natural' and 'best' are two very different things. Our natural tendencies lead us to do much evil: violence, treachery, etc. We all have a bestial nature. Most of our morals are all about controlling and not giving in to those impulses.

One of the worst things that causes affairs, in my mind, is not recognizing that we do have such impulses. As Dr. Harley notes, everyone is capable of having an affair if they put themselves in a bad spot. There are so many who say, after the fact, "I never thought I was that kind of person." But they are. We all are. We have to guard ourselves, all the while living in a society that poo-poo's such precautions, and calls a partner who wants them in place 'controlling'.

Bah, I'm blathering, as has been pointed out to me before.

Hey, I think that tst is one of those! There are actually probably a lot of Christians that practice martial arts around here...dunno...

Mrs. W

Thanks so much Grendel for your very interesting insight. This statement in particular resonates with me:
And perhaps for those non-western cultures in which polygamy is the norm, it probably is true that romantic love has very little, if anything, to do with marriage compared to economics and status. I'm sure some have no idea what romantic love is and marriage and children are natural duties in life that one is expected to fulfill. Still, being so foreign to me I have a hard time comprehending wife#1 not being hurt when wife#2 comes along.

Tabby, IIRC I think The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tam explored how first, second, third wives felt about the arrangement in pre war China, and how the women did feel betrayal and sadness both when additional wives were brought in and when husbands had women on the side who did not contribute to the family.