You just talked me into calling! It's $195 I have earmarked for other stuff and H might be angry that I spent the money (though I handle all the finances so that's not an issue at the moment) but it's a small price to pay towards saving a marriage, right? Though that $195 can add up. Ugh.

What happens after the call. It's done and that's it 'til you decide to spring for another?

You get homework relevant to your situation.

I just went to the coaching center and submitted an email request. I like the fact that I get to pick 3 times that would work and there was a space for comments.

I can't believe I just booked an appointment with someone over the web! Yikes.

Good luck, OH!

Here's to hoping you get a lot out of it!

I'll be sure to report back---though I hope I don't spend the entire hour just sobbing.

Yes, be sure to tell us how it goes!

(And while sobbing would be embarassing and tiresome, maybe it'd also feel good to have someone with a real live voice and compassion listening to you for a change . . . and women are great multitaskers, they say, so I'm sure you can sob and learn at the same time! ;))

Thanks Wolf. I'm already pretty impressed by the process. I spoke w/ the MB office (great lady there) who took some basic contact info, confirmed the appt, took my CC # (that all important thing you need for this appt!), and said she was emailing me some things to fill out and email back to Steve.

When I filled out the scheduling form, it had a space for comments so I added a few sentences about my frame of mind. She is passing those along and she also gave me an email address for any other brief comments I would like to give to Steve before our appt. She said the appts run 45-50 min ( I had read an hour somewhere on this site, but I suppose it's probably fluid, depending on the situation).

So I feel really good about what I did, despite the $$$$. I'm still on pins and needles about a possible confrontation with H about the letter. I know I *had* to lay out a boundary and I keep telling myself that I don't want the marriage I have today--I don't want to be divorced either. I want a healthy marriage where I am in love with my spouse and we are 100% partners facing all of life's joys and challenges together. I'm willing to accept being divorced or separated if I can't get this.

I don't think that's too much to ask and for once I have hopes that there is someone out there--a professional--who GETS it, vs all the other MCs we've seen. And that someone is Steve Harley.

So he's been gone over 24 hours and I have no clue if he's found and read that letter!

He texted me when he landed last night and called me this afternoon for help getting set up with Wifi at Starbucks since there's no internet where he's staying. Told me about his evening, etc.

Emailed me a few times during the day. Pretty mundane type stuff--a few forwards, a few things about the kids, a question about a package he was waiting for here.

Texted me tonight telling me he found a gym who would honor his local membership, and was heading back for dinner and then bed.

So all in all, we were in contact MORE today than we are when I'm at work 20 miles down the road. Odd.

I'm just going with the flow right now. I keep reminding myself I've said my piece in that letter and that the only discussion I want to have about it from here is working with him to formulate a plan. So the last thing I'm going to do is ask: "Did you find the letter?"

I have a feeling he hasn't found it yet.

Yep, whatever you do, do not ask if he's found it yet - IMHO.

Could be he hasn't found it yet. Or, could be that he has found it, and he's making an effort to be nice to you... perhaps in the hopes that "this" (whatever it is that motivated the letter) will blow over.

BTW I was busy all day, but I am really really glad you are setting up a call with the Harleys. I talk to Steve, for the same reason you mentioned - I figure it makes it more likely that DH will participate.

The first phone call was a lot of background stuff, so you may find you get more benefit from the second call and so on. You get a discount if you pay for 5 calls at once. So I did one call at first, and then I thought it was worthwhile to continue so I paid for 5 more. After each call you are free to contact the office whenever you're ready to schedule the next, you don't schedule the next right then and there (at least I don't).

Before every appointment you are to fill out a brief survey or emotional needs inventory.

If I were you, I'd trust what Steve or Jennifer says more than what we amateurs say. LOL Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

A few comments...
DJs and attitude



OH, like Cat, I totally agree. It's the difference between not-DJing-and-gritting-my-teeth-because-that's-what-I-have-to-do-but-my-H-is-still-useless - and not making the DJ in your mind in the first place.

Chances are your H can tell you're gritting your teeth, so the DJ leaks out anyway.

Not even THINKING the DJ requires a change in how you view your H. Which comes from humility and a determined effort to understand him. And noticing and rejecting DJs as they enter your mind.

Venting vs whining
I don't see much difference. My kids, err, 'vent' quite a bit. DS4 less so now. "I'm hungree-ee-ee." "I don't want THAT pla-a-a-te". Where venting is expressing a desire as a complaint. With no solution.

I think venting's often disrespectful. Often the venter is implying fault in the vent recipient.

Not the case on this board, but often the case when one spouse 'vents' to the another.

When the kids vent, I always ask them:
- what do you want, and
- how do you ask nicely.

I NEVER fix the problem until they ask nicely for what they want - make a thoughtful request.

It works very well. "Dad, could I please have..." is the usual and immediate response. I think that method's an excellent way of dealing with 'venting', and I think it would work pretty well for grownups too.

"We never have sex any more" vs "how would you feel about ..."
"Our finances are going down the toilet." vs "how would you feel about getting a job."

Logic
Was that in reply to this:

If so, that's an error of logic, reductio ad absurdem. Not 'fighting fair'. You've taken what I said, that MAYBE you're PART of the cause of your H's problems, and restated that as 'you ARE ALL of the cause'.

Do you take what your H says, and exaggerate it or take it to extremes, to demonise or ridicule him?

I hope not. My W used to do this a lot. I found it annoying and dispiriting. It killed the discussion.

5/6 is inconsistent
I don't understand.

There are three women on the EN board who disrespect their husbands, to whose threads I've posted.

One landed here as Disgusted Wife, looking to work on her H, if I remember right.

Now she's Seeking Wife, 'Working on myself now'. I don't comment on her thread much now. Don't have much more to say.

The other poster I think I gave a harder time than you.

Which brings me to the last comment...Me too! I think the boards are often a case of the scarred leading the wounded. Maybe my scars show in my posts sometimes. If so I hope that's useful to you, and not just hurtful.

Good luck with the session(s).

So true! They've got the training to not see things through filters and to be objective. I'm looking forward to next week. But I can't discount the value of the "amateur" advice I've gotten here. I don't think I ever would have been able to even fit part of H's shoes on my feet before I came here---I was so embroiled in my own "it's not fair--he treats me terribly" attitude that I couldn't really understand my part in it. And our MCs (all three of them) either never delved into this, or they played right into my hands. No wonder H doesn't want to go back to MC! And these were all men!--so even though I wanted to talk to Steve in the hopes that it will be easier if H wants to join me down the line, it doesn't always follow that a male counselor will automatically "get" the male spouse.

The people on this board have also helped me understand the value of ENs. It never occured to me, until someone 2x4'd me about it, that my buying H cards, gifts, picking up little extra items for him at the store, funny emails, etc., were not filling his top ENs. Those things would help to fill MY EN for affection but I was applying that to H, and figuring that he just didn't appreciate all my effort. Another drop in the resentment bucket! And it didn't have to be that way, if I would have understood his ENs (which I'm still trying to do, BTW, because he hasn't filled out either survey--I'm just going by what I think are his ENs). So by posting and reading here, I have a broader and deeper understanding of the MB concepts.

And I hope that after my appt with Steve, I can come here and get some valuable feedback from all of you as well.

I did fill out two questionnaires and sent them back. The process was seamless: no copy/paste to another file, attach email, etc. Just fill it out and click the 'send' button. It might sound silly but little details like that impress me. The easier you make a task like that for someone, the more likely they are to do it correctly and with enthusiasm. And I felt that by filling out those two surveys and the MB office passing along my intake comments to Steve, that he will have a better understanding of my situation right off the bat than my last MC did after 4 months!

Jayne, I had to scrounge to afford this appointment. At this point I couldn't possibly purchase a package of 5. I'll have to see what comes out of this one and what I will decide to do from here. Even an hour of time with Steve has to help.

And yes, you are also correct in that it's entirely possible that H has found and read the letter and is not acknowledging it hoping it will blow over. I've seen him do that before. For my part, I am keeping our communication very light. No relationship talk, lots of enthusiasm for him being back there (did you see so-and-so yet? how's the weather? has spring arrived there yet? and so on). I hope that's the right thing to be doing right now.

5/6, I do appreciate your honest opinions. I honestly respond better with a velvet hammer approach though. Yes, I've been 2x4'd and yes, it's been helpful. However the most helpful 2x4s have been delivered with that velvet hammer approach. I think it's fair for me to tell you that about myself so that next time you have some wisdom and feedback for me, perhaps you could wrap the 2x4 a bit and soften the approach. You use your kids as excellent examples of whining vs venting. I'll use my kids as examples of how changing my approach for each child's personality works. I have one to whom I can say "this is your chore list, I need it done by XXX" and he's fine. I have another with whom I need to say "I need these things done by XXXX, would you please come up with a plan for yourself so that you can complete them by that time". The direct approach would have him digging in his heels. Yes, I am the parent and I can just say "do it because I said so" but then we'd both be aggravated and what will that accomplish? I did the same thing when I managed 25 people. Everyone had their own style and it helped ME if I remembered that.

I have not heard from him today so I am assuming he found that letter. I didn't think he found it yesterday because the conversation was too light.

Then it's good he found the letter, right? You can't anything more about it then that.

Of course. I have to learn how to let go of things I can't control so I don't stress out about them. I stepped way outside my comfort zone to finally draw a boundary and that was the letter. The letter tells him that I no longer want the marriage we currently have. I hope that the letter did communicate that I do still want a marriage. But I want a better, healthier marriage. That's why I rewrote the damn thing 15 times! Unfortuantely, I can't even begin to predict his response. It could be anything from "I can't believe you didn't let on in our conversations, etc. from yesterday that you wrote that letter" to "I dont' believe you mean anything you said in that letter" to "how dare you" to .... well a gazillion other things.

Also--though I can't do anything about this either--he's out there in a terrible frame of mind. The letter didn't make it any better. Could the situation be more ripe for a repeat of an affair?

OH - I don't think you had much choice other than to draw a line in the sand. The fact that you are physically apart and that he has more of an opportunity to have an affair now is irrevelant because you cannot control what he chooses to do, whether he's there or at home.

The ramifications of an affair are on him, not you. As things presently stand, by your description, he does not present himself as a good catch - so if he does start up something with someone else, I can't imagine it lasting - not that you'd want him back.

He doesn't need a babysitter. What he likely needs is to be on medication and to hire a lifecoach, but that's just my opinion. Just wanted to edit and say I didn't say that to be unkind. I am not sure he is on medication, but he should be evaluated regardless, and I think a lifecoach could do him wonders once the meds start working.

Don't do this to yourself OH... you will drive yourself crazy, and be no better off. Simply assume nothing. Go about your days as best you can without constantly waiting for acknowledgement. You will be resentful and depressed regardless of outcome, because the only outcome from this which would make you truly HAPPY is NOT going to happen. Your H is not going to send you 2 dozen roses and call with a heart-felt apology. It isn't going to happen that way, so don't keep looking for some acknowledgement. I know you don't expect that, but if you look deep in your heart, I would suspect you wish it.

He will either do something or he will not. My counselor during my first marriage gave me some advice which I found extremely beneficial and changed how I looked at my spouse during our troubles and eventual divorce. She said "Expect the worst, that way either your expectations will be met or you will be surprised for the better." Now you might think that this is self-defeating or such a downer. But when I "didn't" expect anything out of her, I was NOT disappointed. If something DID happen which was positive, then it was certainly a bonus, but when she did nothing or something bad, it was just about what I was expecting, and therefore it did not hurt nearly as much as if I was holding something 'good' in my heart.

This does NOT mean I gave up, but simply that I opened my eyes to a likly reality and this was supremely beneficial when things were bad. I expected nothing, and therefore, didn't spend all day 'wishing' something would happen. In fact, I PRACTICED expecting nothing, when things would creap in and I would find myself begin thinking about what 'could be' I would consciously stop myself, and say, "Expect the worst" and it actually helped. It didn't change how I viewed her, but it did somewhat guard my heart during a very tough time in which I had absolutely NO POWER. Much as you are now.

Take care of yourself. You have 3 weeks or so in which you can decompress from the daily grind of your H. Don't waste it by waiting for him to sing you a song...

IMO

I came to look at my life as if it was Italian dressing in a blender. Things would settle down for a while and I would 'layer out' and along she would come and hit PUREE!...

Don't do that to yourself. Be calm for YOU and your children. Live your life at this moment as well as you can. This will NOT include fretting over your H's thoughts and actions. You have control over only ONE person.

Thanks for the slaps upside the head (anyone watch NCIS and catch that reference? LOL). I needed them and I suspect I might need more in coming days.

Solee, yes, you are right--he's not exactly a prime catch but even that's beside the point as you pointed out---I have no control over what he might choose to do while out there. I have to comfort myself with knowing that I established a boundary--a kind of first for me--and that I have every intention of holding to it because anything else will just put me back into a marriage I do not want.

CFIO: Thank you as well. I have to keep saying to myself: 'do not expect him to "do the right thing" (whatever that might be!'). I did what I did to preserve my peace of mind and hopefully establish a healthier atmosphere for the kids and me---whether married or not.

I am glad I bit the bullet and made that appointment with Steve though. I do have until noon on Tues to cancel if it appears it was not a wise decision. I don't intend on doing that--even if H calls me up in a rant. Hopefully most of you here also agree with me that it's a wise decision to talk to Steve.

And I keep telling myself that his aunt and uncle, with whom he is staying, have been a big support for me. I have purposely avoided calling them today because I dont' want to appear overly anxious about H's reaction. But even though they love H, I know they both understand my pain too.

Be calm for YOU and your children. Live your life at this moment as well as you can. This will NOT include fretting over your H's thoughts and actions. You have control over only ONE person.

Very true, OH. You're their rock, so just hang in there and be glad for the distance at this point in time. I imagine he will read the letter before he comes home. I do wonder if he's the type to pretend to you that he didn't get it/read it. I mean...he would know that you're waiting on pins and needles for his reaction...

Would it be better for you to let him leave a message and give you some idea what he's calling about - then call him back? Give yourself some time to inhale/exhale, and collect your thoughts? Relieve the anxiety of answering a cold call from him?

How about telling yourself that when you call him back, you will just let him talk until he's spent and not interrupt? Remember he won't see your face/concern/anxiety/fear - and that could give you an advantage. You will have the option to hang up if it becomes abusive and/or loud. Try to realize nothing is required of you. You said it all in the letter, and the ball is now in his court.

His reaction won't change your mind, won't intimidate you, and will give you an answer that you really do need to proceed with your life, either way.

I agree with Soolee on two points, OH: Whether he does or whether he does not have an affair right now, it has nothing to do with you. You could not have caused it, or prevented it.

AND: letting him talk without interruption. I read an interesting book about liars, and this was one thing that was mentioned. Silence makes a liar uncomfortable. They'll often dig their own hole trying to fill the gap of the silence. I'm still working on trying that one in practice, lol. Better luck to you in finding out what you need to know to make good decisions going forward.

Ok, update. H just called (in fact he's still on the phone as I type this, talking to DD9). No indication of whether he read the letter. He told me about his day, and where he's headed tonight. We talked about his mom, and the family's efforts to get her into some sort of assisted living. I did not bring up the letter. I kept the conversation light--made sure to give him lots of positive listening signs, joked around, talked about his family, suggested driving by our old house (the one we first lived in when we were married and where he lived while we were dating--lots of good memories there). One of his biggest complaints about me is that he thinks I never listen--he'll start talking and I'll be distracted thinking about 1000 other things. In my defense, I don't think this is true because I'm capable of multi-tasking, but it annoys him so I've resolved to try my best to give him 100% attention when he speaks or tell him why I can't do that right now and give him a choice to table his discussion or talk to me while I do "A".

So I guess you could say I'm "plan A-ing" him, letter notwithstanding. I've been trying my best to Plan A since the beginning of the year.

I still have no clue if he found or read the letter. I don't see how he could have missed it but I wasn't about to ask.