The person who wants to control sex life in a marriage will have their way, for a while, and it will not make things pleasant.

The POJA means both parties AGREE to a compromise.

But I would suggest going further, because the real solution is to stop thinking about sexual relations as one of YOUR NEEDS, and start thinking of it as one means of expressing your love for your spouse. It may take a little while for you to change your attitude, and for your spouse to realize what that means and change their attitude, but it is a much higher and more satisfying relationship than trading "the meeting of emotional needs". It is an attitude of service, which cannot help but manifest itself in the way you try to meet those other emotional needs.

Well said. Our sex life has been so lacking for so long...and the above is what I feel is missing.

I recently made a conscience decision (wrong) to make my WS a sex object to me. instead of making love to her, i was just ****ing her. I didn't realize it but i did.

She mentioned to me one night in bed that she noticed i wasn't kissing her as much (if at all) as i used to.

Not quite sure how i changed it in my head but started kissing her and making love to her instead and realy started liking it more. now its back to normal and she noticed it and thanked me for it. I of course apologized to her but she understood after all the cheating how it happened.

it wont happen again.

No, that's just one of several outcomes of the POJA concept -- it's the outcome you'd like. But it's not the only outcome. If you can't agree, POJA means you do nothing. Which means no sex.

'Doing nothing' means more than 'no sex,' as I understand it.

It also means 'no going about your business as usual,' 'no avoinding talking about the subject,' 'no making decisions about other things before this is fixed,' and all sorts of other 'nothings.'

Like when one person wants to go visit friends together and the other wants to stay home together - if the homey person isn't happy with going it's true that the socialising person doesn't get to go. However, the homey person doesn't get to 'stay home' either. The homey person gets to be 'in the home' working on a POJA with the person who wanted to go out, not puttering around in the yard or whatever the plan was. So it's not that the person who wants something to 'not happen' always wins.

Of course, an individual case of 'not tonight, dear' would not warrant a full stop to your activities, but if it's a long-standing problem like yours, you need to have BOTH parties agreeing.

Of course forcing someone to have sex with you if they don't want to isn't POJA. However, if one party does not agree to 'no sex' that's not POJA either. You have to keep negotiating and negotiating until you find something you're both happy with. The person who wants 'no sex' does not get to say 'and no POJA-ing either.'

Actually, if they are persistent enough, they usually do. The higher libido spouse tends to get tired of "negotiating" when it never leads to sex, and they stop POJA-ing around SF. So the lower libido spouse often does get no sex and no POJA on sex.

What they don't get is a happy spouse. So insisting on no sex and no POJA tends to lead to Plan B or Plan D, often with an affair thrown in for good measure. Hence the folks here at MB might suggest the lower libido spouse is being penny wise and pound foolish to insist on no sex and no POJA-ing on sex. But it is wrong to say they can't get it - they can, at least for a while.

Well that's just the problem. When there is a REAL desire discrepancy, there is no middle ground that you're both happy with. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. My wife and I aren't incompetent at negotiating. We're good at that in all other areas of our marriage and our professional lives. We're not in the "duh, I wish I had thought of negotiating -- problem solved -- thanks" category. We have a real and serious desire discrepancy which has no compromise level, unfortunately.

That is the problem. The remedies on this forum seem to presuppose that there's always a middle ground that would make both parties happy, and that it's only a simple task of finding it.

At this point, I'm more in the mode of how to not only cope, but live happily with this reality without breaking up my family.

And save your time, we essentially tried Plan B years ago, before we ever heard of this forum. It didn't solve the basic problem of desire discrepancy, which crept right back in short order.

Right on. As my wife once said, this endless negotiation about sex, day after day, week after week, month after month, is a big turnoff! And you know, she was being totally honest.

>When there is a REAL desire discrepancy, there is no middle ground that you're both happy with.

See, I just don't believe that.

Of course, when you demand the other to be just like you, that'll never work. If you want your W to act like a porn star and WANT to do it, too, that's no good. If your W wants you to be happy if you never have an orgasm again in your life, that's no good.

But those things aren't NEEDS.

Those things are elaborate strategies people think up because they would meet some needs. But needs - by definition, I'd almost say - can be met in different ways, so even though your preferred strategies may clash, that doesn't mean you can't think up strategies that WOULD meet both your needs, I'd say.

There's lots of couples with real desire discrepancies that do have fulfilling marriages.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with you and Hold that you don't have that at the moment, or that having a fulfilling sex life with a wife who's been sexually abused is a walk in the park, but desire discrepancies as such don't make POJA impossible.

Me and the guy have a real desire discrepancy, and the reasons why we have trouble in that department don't really have anything to do with that, but with not listening to each other and often annoying each other. And, for the record, the low libido partner (me) annoys the high libido partner out of his sex drive just as easily as the other way around.

(By the way, I'm not talking 'middle ground' in the sense that you want it (regular ol' in-out sex) every day and she wants it (same thing or something different) every month so you do it (regular ol') every week. That kind of middle ground makes BOTH unhappy. I'm talking more about really, empathically and compassionately understanding what needs lie behind your wishes (from both sides) so you can really figure out specifically tailor-made solutions, which may not work for ANYONE and are unlikely to be offered on a message board, because they don't work for the people giving you advice.)

And, perhaps most of all, I don't think all this talk about POJA being categorically impossible if you don't have the same hormonal settings really helps people like the original poster, especially if they haven't tried yet. Dr. Harley himself never says POJA is useless for SF, and we're supposed to at least nominally agree to what he's saying, right? Or at least not to discourage people who're just diving in.

I think with POJA, it can be too easy to get tunnel vision on an issue that is difficult to compromise on, as it is on this one. Sure, sex is the issue, but that doesn't mean that other factors can't be involved. Is it possible that perhaps there are things you can do for your W that will make her more willing to have sex? Could be related, but could be completely unrelated. Perhaps she'd be more willing to have sex if you made the bed in the morning, or she could wear whatever she wanted, or even if you just gave her a good hug when you got home from work. Perhaps you might not feel you need sex as much if she made breakfast more often, or something like that.

The point is not to make a sacrafice or a trade-off, but to understand that the ulimate goal is to have the love bank filled. Having it filled one way can make having a filled a different way not needed quite as much. And having your own bank filled makes it easier to want to fill your other's love bank.

I agree with both Wolfdeca and DrySpell. I believe everyone should start from the assumption that there is a mutually acceptable solution and that their task is to find it. I believe everyone should give RH and POJA a good hard try. They should be very open to brainstorming and thinking outside the box. They should be very flexible as to the manner in which they allow their partner to meet their needs. And exhaust every possibility before they accept that there is no middle ground they can both be happy with.

But in the end, I think there are couples for whom there is no mutually acceptable middle ground. I think not every couple who thinks they are incompatible truly is incompatible. But I think some couples are.

I don't know you from Adam, nor do I know your wife from Eve, and I don't think I can really speak for my wife on this, so I'll speak for myself. When I decided something had to be done, I started talking to my wife about it. Initially, all she could POJA on was that something needed to change. We didn't know what or how or where that would lead us, but she did agree that it was an issue that needed facing. Because of that one step, I'm hopeful and even optimistic that some change that we are both agreeable to will be reached. I don't expect it to be immediate, maybe not even soon, but I do believe that better times are ahead.

I have thought a little about what would happen if she couldn't even agree to that step: her account in my love bank would continue to deteriorate -- to what end I don't know. I know when I initiated the conversation, I wasn't too far from, "If we need a counselor, let's get a counselor," so I expect I would have tried that at some point.

I find your situation interesting, in that I think it could make an interesting case study. "What do you do when your spouse refuses to meet your need for (blank), and you want to figure out how to keep the relationship 'intact'?" In many ways, it seems to be rather frequent topic of discussion here. I hope you find a way to live happily, and without regret, with your wife.

I thought this was an interesting comment. I expect everyone has considered or discussed or whatever the difference between "making love" and "having sex". It seems to me to be a good example of listening to your wife's concern/desire and then changing your behavior in response. That's the kind of thing that makes it, as Retread said, a "means of expressing your love for your spouse" rather than selfishly satisfying a hunger.

Let flip it around. How about the following exchanges?

Rush: So how does quitting your job and hanging around a bar all day long help your relationship, Mr. Caller?

Mr. Caller: Because I don't feel used. I don't feel like simply a wallet to her. By quitting my job and not providing her any money, I'm not objectified as a bottomless cash register.

Alternatively:

Rush: So how does living in garbage-filled house help your relationship, Mr. Caller?

Mr. Caller: Because I don't feel used. I don't feel like simply as a servant to her. By not taking care of the house I'm not objectified as a caretaker of her house..

To me withholding something from a spouse that you know is the spouse’s top EN is wrong. Simply wrong.

Hey, lot of times I do not wish to pick up dirty laundry, or stack dishes into the dishwasher, or go to work. But you know what? I do it because it is important to my wife. I enjoy picking up dirty laundry not because I enjoy picking up dirty laundry, but because I enjoy making my wife happy.

If a woman does not feel like having sex, yet it is her husband’s primary EN, well, too bad. She should be happy to have sex with her husband not because she enjoys sex, but because she enjoys making him happy.

I kind of agree averageguy, certainly I wouldn't dream of refusing my husband sex unless I was really ill or utterly exhausted (and I can count on my fingers how often that has happened in ten years).

But.. sex is something you do together that you have to work out how to make it mutually satisfying. If a man is not willing to do the work in that area then I disagree that a woman should do it just to please him.

On the other hand expecting someone to live a celibate life because it makes you more comfortable is clearly incredibly selfish. But then my husband has turned me down for sex far more than I've ever turned him down so then I would say that wouldn't I?

There is a deeper problem when discussing a woman's sex drive in a marriage. I hear all these people in this thread say over and over "low libido" but when the woman gets into an affair there is no "low libido" anymore. She is swinging from the chandelier with her cheating partner. So its not just an issue of not wanting sex, but not wanting sex with her husband. I really dont have an answer to this one. Why women lose their sex drive for their husbands, but Im sure its way more than one reason.

Also, lets not forget that a woman also needs to be pleased sexually which usually takes longer with more effort on the husbands part. So if the husband is only taking care of himself while engaging in sex with his wife over and over, he is setting himself up for a big fail since sex to the wife becomes no more than a chore, more housework. And if this goes on and on, you could see very clearly why she would lose any sexual interest in her husband at that point. Imagine if your wife almost got you to climax and then suddenly stopped. Now imagine if this happened over and over, every time you had sex.

Dr. H describes it in detail in the beginning of the Love Busters book, about the Selfish Demands, and then again in the beginning of Surviving an Affair. In a nutshell the woman pressures herself to participate when she doesn't want to, instead of addressing the issue at hand, the lack of desire. But there are great articles her on going from willingness to desire.

I don't know, fixing the relationship with my wife seemed to work for me. She told me that in the past I was only nice to her when I wanted some and it was true. She told me that it was very uncomfortable for her to have sex with me under those pretenses. Also I did a lot of the groping stuff that was mentioned in this thread. She also told me that this was a huge turnoff for her at the time. While I looked at it from the mans perspective and how awesome it would be if the wife groped me once in a while. So I did it to her.

She did have an affair and this was a big wake up call for me. Im glad I found this site when I did and read all the articles here. We are now in a recovery state and my changes in regard to the relationship with her and meeting her needs now seemed to work. She tells me that she is once again falling in love with me and is attracted to me once again. she now initiates sex like she did in the beginning of our relationship. Also I can tell during the sexual act that she is more pleased and not just lying there saying "hurry up, concentrate" She now says stuff like "Dont stop", "Dont you Dare stop, think about baseball or something" and all in all its more satisfying to both her and I. Sex feels empty when you know the other partner is not really enjoying himself/herself.

Thanks for sharing that! It's great to see progress!

This is exactly how it was for us and I think this is one of the major things that went wrong in my marriage. I didn't know of MB then and I really don't know how or if it would have helped. To make it worse, WstbxH was very unaffectionate. When I tried talking to him about it, he would say he'd show affection when we had sex. But he touched me with all the affection I imagine a man would touch a blow up doll. He hadn't touched anything other than my female parts in the last 10 years of our marriage, unless he happen to accidentally brush up against me. And he was cranky and demanding until we wanted some - then he would suck up, but STILL not be affectionate. He didn't even kiss me during it. Again, I hadn't found MB, so maybe there was something that could have helped, but I really did grow to hate it. And when he groped me, I just felt even more used.

And no, we didn't have a sexless marriage - I "put out" for him. It sucked away my soul each time but I did it and over time, affection waned away to nothing at all.

So yes, I fully understand how it can feel like a chore and how one can become adverse to the whole idea. In fact, I liked him better when we weren't having it and looked forward to that time of the month. I suppose that's why I'm still interested in this topic - to figure out how to change myself in this regard.

Simple. Start with Radical Honesty. If the sex isn't working for you, tell him. Yes, that may well hurt his feelings. But if you are compassionate and offer to teach him better technique he should get over that hurt.

If he refuses to address his "technique issues", then refuse to have bad sex. That is simple POJA - if you aren't both enthusiastic, then do nothing. Presumably you are not enthusiastic about having bad sex, so if your husband insists on having bad sex, stop having sex. Most likely he will quickly wake up to the need to expend effort to make the sex better. If he doesn't, continue to reject the bad sex.

Yes, this will likely kill the relationship if he continues to be stubborn and you hold to your boundary. But IMO it is better to end things quickly than to let it drag on for years by giving in to bad sex.