Cat, really, if he made a different choice now, you think it would be because he was sorry for her that she may have this gene? My neighbor was tested and had that gene, had her breasts removed and implants put in, and that minimized her risk. I'm not saying that it was easy or wasn't scary, but it doesn't seem to me like it would be the driving factor.

Or are you coming from the angle that he may flee? Wouldn't that be really important information to have?

Either way, OH, I totally trust your judgment here, just offering another perspective. It sounds like it doesn't fit for you, but thanks for considering it.

Ears, I'm saying I wouldn't trust any decision he made to stay and work on our relationship, under the umbrella of knowing about this.

I have to get him on board the program first. Does he agree w/ the goal? What is/will be his response and feedback to my doing the LB questionnaire from his perspective (and sending him that email that quantifies my accountability)? And will he want to talk to Steve? Cat's right about the states of marriage. Preferably in the state of intimacy, perhaps in the state of conflict but not in the state of withdrawal--do I feel telling him about this will do us any good. So I guess I answered that question myself.

The second question--I just emailed him back:

"I can't send you any pictures. Too difficult given past experience. Can you make do with the ones on currently on your hard drive and the ones your Mom has on her digital frame? They're all pretty recent".

FWIW (not much I guess) I'd've suggested you did the opposite for these two matters.

Sent the photos. He already knows you felt betrayed by him showing OW your photos. That was a while ago.

I predict he will think you're rubbing his nose in it, guilting him, being petty, and he will feel frustrated and ill-disposed towards you.

True it's how you feel and I suppose emotional honesty calls for you to tell him you still feel that way. At the right time, and calmly. "Here are those photos. I have to say it brings back some pretty bad memories. I still feel ___" Then move on to something positive.

And I'd recommend you tell him about his W's health. Maybe clear the air about the photos issue first, if possible. Your health affects his life. Otherwise, when he learns about it later, he will think 'W thought I couldn't handle the truth.' DJ. Hurtful for him.

He might also think that by manipulating the flow of information to him you were attempting to manipulate him.

You want HIM to be O&H, right?

5/6 the rules change during times of withdrawal and also, according to Dr. Harley and several posters here, when there has been abuse. O&H works great when you feel safe. Negotiation works great when you feel safe. It all goes out the window when you don't. Sorry--but it is what it is.

Following up on SH's recommendation, I wrote the following to H. It's looong and not as "heartfelt" as my original letter but it follows Steve's advice for accountabilty and action. I tried hard to keep whininess out of it.

The letter I sent with you is missing some crucial information. I thought very carefully about how to word it so that you could see how I was feeling without feeling as though I were attacking you. I think I did an ok job with that. The things I wrote about are the source of great pain to me and I wanted you to know that. I also wanted you to know that as much of a source of great pain to me was the realization of how many ways I've failed you as a supportive and loving spouse in the past.

But I failed to point out what steps I plan to take to make myself a more supportive and loving spouse and in the process, a better person. It's my goal, and one which I hope you share, that we figure out a way to fall in love with each other again--not just LOVE eachother, but to be IN LOVE with each other. I can't accept less. I want the parents of our children to be in love with each other.

So, I did a lot of thinking and with the help of some reference materials I found through Marriage Builders, I filled out an evaluation on what Dr. Harley calls "Love Busters"--things that spouses do that withdraw love units from a love account (filling a spouse's emotional needs deposits units--but it makes sense that deposits can't add up until the leaky holes are filled and withdrawals are no longer made). There is a "Love Buster" questionnaire and though I would love for you to look at it at some point and offer your feedback as it pertains to me, I thought a good starting point would be for me to fill it out from your perspective--as best as I can. Here's what I discovered and the steps I hope to take:

Categories of Love Busters--ranked in what I think would be your order (there are more LBs than this--these are the usual top 5).

1. Dishonesty: I think that you find my Dishonesty takes the form of not telling you of things that I've done (such as moving money around or spending it) and in distorting facts so that you don't have the entire picture with which to make a decision (usually relates to items concerning the kids). I'm not going to try to justify WHY I do those things--the point is I do them/have done them and I believe they are a big love buster for you. So I have resolved each night to recap the day's events and to make a list of areas where I have not been completely forthcoming. And then I will either tell you face-to-face (if I feel confident we can avoid a fight!) or give you a list--until we can talk face-to-face. I'm hoping that in time, knowing I'm accountable, I will overcome my instinct to distort/cover the truth in order to avoid an argument because it's better to have the disagreement up front than to be fighting later about the truth distortion *as well as* the original disagreement!

2. Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgements: These are two separate categories but I thought that you would rank them equal. They take the form of: Me, constantly re-stating my opinion in the hopes that you will simply cave in and just agree with me, not listening or minimizing your point of view. Hand in hand with that go disrespectful judgements. DJs can be right out there (verbal) or they can be things I think to myself which can be just as damaging. I think you would find my DJs again, running roughshod over your thoughts and opinions and using your words in future arguments so that you feel ambushed by them and don't feel safe in telling me what you really feel. Up until I took this quiz on your behalf, I wasn't aware I was making SDs, or DJs as I felt I never called you names, or ridiculed your opinion. But these love busters can take lots of different forms and what I do in all likelihood is a full-on love buster because of *the way it makes you feel*. If you feel badly because of my behavior then I need to adjust my behavior. That's another tenet of the Marriage Builder principle according to Harley. Spouses should avoid engaging in any behavior that makes their partner unhappy and find ways to communicate so that both parties feel respected and heard. If, during a discussion, you could point out when you are starting to feel unhappy or hurt by what I am saying and could calmly and respectfully point that out, I will stop what I am saying and try to rephrase it. If that's not possible then it's likely the entire thought is a selfish demand and I need to do away with it.

3. Independent Behavior: Any time one spouse engages in a behavior that the other spouse can not *enthusiastically* support, it's an independent behavior and a love buster. I'm not sure there's any activity that I do that qualifies (let me know) but I think that my dealing with our finances and making decisions unilaterally as I stated in #1 above, qualfies as Independent Behavior. Also, when the kids come to me and ask for something and I'm not totally sure you'd agree with my decision but I give it to them anyway--that's also independent behavior. I am pretty sure that's a good sized love buster for you-- I know that it would be for me. Harley's 'enthusiastic joint agreement' policy applies here. So I will work my hardest to develop the habit of making sure these decisions involve you and when we find ourselves in disagreement, I will ensure that we have a time and place to negotiate (respectfully!) and come to a conclusion where we *enthusiastically* agree,.

4. Angry Outbursts. I don't think I engage in these too often, which is why they are number 4, but even one AO is one too many. My AOs more often take the form of throwing things and yelling and/or following you from room to room to continue the argument. I've been working on the throwing/dish breaking--and I think I've made a big improvement there. I hope you will agree. But I need to commit to respectfully telling you if/when I am reaching a point where I can't discuss something because I'm too angry--and to tell you calmly that I am going to physically remove myself from the area and we can resume our discussion when I have a hold of my temper and my feelings. Harley doesn't say "don't get angry" he just recommends not discussing things when overcome with anger. That makes sense to me and no one likes to be yelled at so if I find I can't control my rising anger, the most respectful thing I can do is to take myself out of the room and talk to you when I am calmer. I hope that you will agree.

5. This last one is Annoying Behavior: This can take the form of habits or actions. I thought you would rank these as less important than the others which is why I am focusing first on the others. But I want you to know that I am aware that in any marriage--ours is no exception--each spouse has annoying behaviors that upset the other. These can be anything from habits (like not folding towels--just an example--not an actual for us, I hope!) to actions such as smoking (again doesn't apply to us), listening to the radio too loudly or at inappropriate times, etc. Again, that "enthusiastic agreement" policy fits here as far as actions. The annoying action that comes to mind first that I think I do that bugs you is to raise my voice to that whine pitch when I'm trying to get my point across. I'm sure there are others and if you were to complete this questionnaire, then I'd know.

So that's my accountability for how I want to improve myself in terms of personal growth and in terms of our relationship.

In learning about all of this, I discovered that the Harleys do marriage coaching by phone. It's a lot different than counseling. In a nutshell, counseling works with couples to resolve their conflicts--often going back to childhood issues, etc. We've seen how well that works (not!) with us. Coaching--especially Harley's style--works with spouses to bring them back/keep them in that romantic love/state of intimacy stage. That process alone encourages the partners to develop dynamics that elminate conflict. It makes total sense to me.

I really felt strongly that I needed some help getting started and I'd read that the Harleys can accomplish in just a few coaching sessions what counselors might never do in years. So I took the emotional and financial plunge and called Steve Harley. It was a great hour on the phone. He's the one who encouraged me to think about how I might quantify my statements to you about improving myself and how I might hold myself accountable. He suggested that given that we hopefully have the same goal (to be in love with each other again), and after I sent you this email, that I tell you that I spoke with him and offer you the opportunity to talk with him yourself. I realize this is a lot of information to digest so you probably won't have an answer on that, but I wanted to throw it out there.

(closing paragraph--just some personal stuff...)

I really like this letter! I'd respond well to it if I were in your H's shoes.

Have you sent it - were you wanting suggestions?


When do you intend to start this? (You still are keeping a secret, and have the opportunity now to give him a written list.)

I suggest you tell your H that you're not in a position yet where you can be fully open and honest with him, and why.

That's better than him finding out later that you were keeping secrets even as you wrote promising him O&H.

That's if you can't bring yourself to be O&H with him with immediate effect.

Did you ask Steve his opinion on keeping this secret?

(What's with the screen-width reply box?--Can't keep up with all these changes!)

5/6: I spoke w/ Steve on Wed and got this news yesterday so no, I have not told Steve to get his opinion.

However, I talked to H today--he called me around 2pm and I told him--against my better judgement. I just can't help thinking that any decision he makes now will be tainted by this news. We couldn't get into a lot of detail since he was driving and then headed to a family lunch--always an ordeal for him. So we'll talk more tonight. I really don't know a whole lot other than what my aunt told me and right now I'm more concerned for her than for me since she had the test and has the results and now has to make a decision. But given the incidence of cancer among women in my family, I would not be surprised if I also had this gene. I'm going to do some googling later tonight and find out more. My aunt is mailing me the info and I'll probably get that later this week as well.

I haven't sent the letter yet but I will tonight. This was the plan Steve and I discussed and I feel it's the right way to go--but I wanted to get some opinions on wording, etc. It was a big help to have input for my last letter. I get too close to the details and can't stay objective.

I take it that this is a plan A or "last chance to join me" type of an approach? Plan A in the presence of abuse always worries me. If it is a plan B approach, I feel it somewhat weak as I see lots of plan A concepts sprinkled throughout.

I see that you made much of the paragraph about you. While this is a non-threatening way to communicate and a good way to invite someone to join you in the program of change that you have in mind, there is a danger in it. When we say things, we begin to believe them over time. When we are willing to distort/revise to ourselves what we believe (who we think the source is for various problems) for the sake of temporarily keeping the peace, it's not long before we believe it. It's the same reason why saying "I'm so stupid" even as a joke to yourself is bad. Because it's not long before we internalize that and live up to that low view of ourself. When two people share in blame, it's safer to do things like write a letter with a tone that takes personal blame. The other is inclined to do the same and both get to work on the problem. But when there is one party hammering away at the other... demeaning the other... invalidating, talking over, intimidating... and the other party tries to play by traditional rules and continues to take the blame, it quickly becomes a dangerous area. I hope Harley understands those dynamics well enough to steer you safe of such lose-lose situations.

If you do indeed believe that you are dishonest or have areas to improve on, great. There is even a chance that you too carry abusive traits though if I had to vouch one way or another, I'd lean towards you not being abusive.

If he is dishonest, the wise thing is to draw conclusions outside of what he tells you based on prolonged observations and patterns. He may never validate for you some things but if all evidence points that way, it is wise to take note of it and treat it as truth. This is technically a DJ but unfortunately, that is a skill that is needed when you are dealing with a known liar. So just because MB lists it as a LB, don't feel that it is always wrong to DJ. DJs do not get you closer, to a trusting, intimate, good communication type of a marriage but in all honesty, if abusive dynamics exist, that has to be taken care of before these other "icing on the cake" kind of things can be worked on. You can try and build a beautiful tower but without a solid foundation, it will crumble quickly.

The same goes with lies. If you lie to stash money away for the benefit of your children. Or because you feel you may need it some day to branch out on your own and away from him... while dishonest, it may be necessary. Don't fall into the trap of making all things equal. If you were to lie just to win an argument. Or if you lied to him to make him feel small. Or to confuse him so you could have an affair. Or to go out and shop and buy things while he lived "poor"... that would be wrong and something you should work on. But if you are lying because you don't feel safe and need a way to have an out... I ask you to rethink if that is wise to blame yourself for and something that you should really be working to give up.

It all comes back to big patterns. If a person as a whole has not done things that make you feel safe... if a person as a whole has tried to respect your privacy, individuality, personal space, sleep... then I think it's safe to go the extra mile to volunteer information and cut out all lying and DJs. In the case of a DJ, it would then be safe to ask and accept their answer at face value. But if you are working with an abuser, lying about certain things and DJs are a valuable skill.

I will leave you with the warning I have repeated a few times. If you decide to go the path of complete honesty and no DJs and you find yourself in a smaller box, still in lose-lose situations, with things only have gotton worse, it's because you enacted MB plan A principles onto an abusive relationship.

Once again I venture my toe in the water, only to have it bitten. Against my better judgement, I told H today about the news my aunt gave me. I'm not hysterical or upset but it's a little disconcerting and if I have this test, it's going to be a source of great stress. When H called today, I was at the gym. I was upset he didn't call yesterday--just emailed and texted, but we hadn't really set any time schedule or plan to talk to each other and I hadn't said specifically "call me every day" so given that we are so estranged, I decided to own my own responsibility on that one and not be resentful.

But it was hard to talk today--he was in the car and I was at the gym. We agreed we'd talk more tonight. And of course, he didn't call. This brought up a lot of memories of other times he's been out of town on business or pleasure over the years we've been married and didn't call. Always had the right excuse. It got too late. He was with people until whenever.

Where he is now is 3 hours behind us. So if I complain, the "too late to call" excuse will get trotted out again. Honestly, would it have been that hard? We spoke at 2PM this afternoon my time. It's now midnight. He was having lunch with family and going back to his aunt/uncle's house. I can't remember if he said he had other plans.

So tomorrow, if I say something, I'm going to sound whiny and expectant and given that this is a separation of sorts, I don't want to project that image. But if I don't tell him then I have to just stew on it.

It's late and I guess I felt like whining here on the forum.

IAgree:

I distort the truth or misrepresent it (which I guess is the same as lying though I'm trying to draw a distinction here to make myself feel better) to avoid an argument. You are correct in that I don't feel 'safe' arguing with him. Physically yes, I feel safe. But mentally, no. We have no premise of mutual respect--at least not right now. It hasn't always been this way.

I really don't think he is an abuser. I do think he employs abusive tactics because he has seen them work. I think I've employed some as well.

I think this MB program makes a lot of sense. If nothing else, it will help me to set my goals and expectations for this relationship. If he responds to what he sees as me working the program--great. If not, then I have some serious decisons to make.

At some point, we're going to have to discuss that letter. He can't just fly home and resume life as we knew it. That marriage is dead and I won't live inside it anymore. I have the name of a family law attorney and if I need to, I will draw up a separation agreement (required in my state before anything else).

But I'm holding out hope it won't come to that.

In case it's not too late... some suggested additions in italics, comments in brackets.

Lots of suggstions, but really, great letter I think as it stands.

The letter I sent with you is missing some crucial information. I thought very carefully about how to word it so that you could see how I was feeling without feeling as though I were attacking you. I think I did an ok job with that. [Good but more of a pep-talk-for-you than info for him; safe to omit]

The things I wrote about are the source of great pain to me and I wanted you to know that. I also wanted you to know that as much of a source of great pain to me was the realization of how many ways I've failed you as a supportive and loving spouse in the past.

But I failed to point out what steps I plan to take to make myself a more supportive and loving spouse and in the process, a better person. It's my goal, and one which I hope you share, that we figure out a way to fall in love with each other again--not just LOVE each other, but to be IN LOVE with each other. I can't accept less. I want the parents of our children to be in love with each other. [Wish the applause or thumbs up icons were working]

So, I did a lot of thinking and with the help of some reference materials I found through Marriage Builders, I filled out an evaluation on things I've done that might have hurt you and our M. I've used the MB categories.

It's really meant for the other person to fill out, and I'd love for you to do that some time soon, or tell me if I got it right or not.

Dr. Harley calls "Love Busters"--things that spouses do that withdraw love units from a love account (filling a spouse's emotional needs deposits units--but it makes sense that deposits can't add up until the leaky holes are filled and withdrawals are no longer made). There is a "Love Buster" questionnaire and though I would love for you to look at it at some point and offer your feedback as it pertains to me, I thought a good starting point would be for me to fill it out from your perspective--as best as I can. Here's what I discovered and the steps I hope to take:

Categories of Love Busters--ranked in what I think would be your order (there are more LBs than this--these are the usual top 5). [MB jargon - we know what it means but it might alienate him.]


1. Dishonesty:
I think that you find my Dishonesty takes the form of not telling you of things that I've done (such as moving money around or spending it) and in distorting facts so that you don't have the entire picture with which to make a decision (usually relates to items concerning the kids).

I'm not going to try to justify WHY I do those things--the point is I do them/have done them and I believe they are a big love buster for you. So I have resolved each night to recap the day's events and to make a list of areas where I have not been completely forthcoming. And then I will either tell you face-to-face (if I feel confident we can avoid a fight!) or give you a list--until I feel safe to talk to you we can talk face-to-face.

I'm hoping that in time, knowing I'm accountable, I will overcome my instinct to distort/cover the truth in order to avoid an argument. because I think[be at pains to express your opinions as opinions, not facts, even for seemingly innocuous things.] it's better to have the disagreement up front than to be fighting later about the truth distortion *as well as* the original disagreement!

[Suggestion: That said, I'm determined never to fight with you again.]

2. Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgements:
These are two separate categories but I thought that you would rank them equal.

They take the form of: Me, constantly re-stating my opinion in the hopes that you will simply cave in and just agree with me, not listening or minimizing your point of view.

Hand in hand with that go disrespectful judgements. DJs can be right out there (verbal) or they can be things I think to myself which can be just as damaging. I think you would find my DJs again, running roughshod over your thoughts and opinions and using your words in future arguments so that you feel ambushed by them and don't feel safe in telling me what you really feel.

Up until I took this quiz on your behalf, I wasn't aware I was making SDs, or DJs doing this, as I felt I never called you names, or ridiculed your opinion.

But these love busters can take lots of different forms and what I do in all likelihood is a full-on love buster because of *the way it makes you feel*. But if you feel badly because of my behavior then I need to adjust my behavior. That's another tenet of the Marriage Builders principle according to Harley. Spouses should avoid engaging in any behavior that makes their partner unhappy and find ways to communicate so that both parties feel respected and heard.

If, during a discussion, you could point out when you are starting to feel unhappy or hurt by what I am saying and could calmly and respectfully point that out, I will stop what I am saying and try to rephrase it.

If that's not possible then it's likely the entire thought is a selfish demand and I need to do away with it.

3. Independent Behavior
Any time one spouse engages in a behavior that the other spouse can not *enthusiastically* support, it's an independent behavior and a love buster.

I'm not sure there's any activity that I do that qualifies (let me know). but I think that Maybe my dealing with our finances and making decisions unilaterally as I stated in #1 above, qualfies as Independent Behavior.

Also, when the kids come to me and ask for something and I'm not totally sure you'd agree with my decision but I give it to them anyway-- maybe that's also independent behavior.

I am pretty sure that's a good sized love buster for you-- Do those things bother you? I know that it would be for they'd bother me.

Harley's 'enthusiastic joint agreement' policy applies here. So I will work my hardest to develop the habit of making sure these decisions involve you and when we find ourselves in disagreement, I will ensure that we have a time and place to negotiate (respectfully!) and come to a conclusion where we *enthusiastically* agree.

4. Angry Outbursts.
I don't think I engage in these too often, which is why they are number 4, but even one AO is one too many.

My AOs more often take the form of throwing things and yelling and/or following you from room to room to continue the argument. I've been working on the throwing/dish breaking--and I think I've made a big improvement there. [Too weak IMO. Dishthrowing?! Working on it implies getting down to once a week / month / year / whatever would be OK - when as you said, once is too often. "I'm working on that hitting you thing and I think you'll agree I've improved."]

I see now this is completely unacceptable and I'm determined never to do this again.

I hope you will agree. But I need to commit to respectfully telling I will tell you respectfully if/when I am reaching a point where I can't discuss something because I'm too angry--and to tell you calmly that I am going to physically remove myself from the area and we can resume our discussion when I have a hold of my temper and my feelings.

Harley doesn't say "don't get angry" he just recommends not I can't promise not to get angry, but I wil ldo my very best to avoid discussing things when overcome with anger.

That makes sense to me and no one likes to be yelled at so if I find I can't control my rising anger, the most respectful thing I can do is to take myself out of the room and talk to you when I am calmer. I hope that you will agree.

5. This last one is Annoying Behavior
This can take the form of habits or actions. I thought you would rank these as less important than the others which is why I am focusing first on the others.

But I want you to know that I am aware that in any marriage--ours is no exception--each a spouse has can have annoying behaviors that upset the other.

These can be anything from habits (like not folding towels--just an example--not an actual for us, I hope!) to actions such as smoking (again doesn't apply to us), listening to the radio too loudly or at inappropriate times, etc. Again, that "enthusiastic agreement" policy fits here as far as actions. The annoying action that comes to mind first that I think I do that bugs you is to raise my voice to that whine pitch when I'm trying to get my point across.

I'm sure there are others and if you were to complete this questionnaire, then I'd know.

So that's my accountability for how I want to improve myself in terms of personal growth and in terms of to help our relationship.

In learning about all of this, I discovered that the Harleys do marriage coaching by phone. It's a lot different than to the counseling we had.

In a nutshell, [No lecturing!] I'm told counseling works with couples to resolve their conflicts--often going back to childhood issues, etc.

We've seen how well that works (not!) with us. According to MB, it seldom does.Coaching--especially Harley's style--works with spouses to bring them back/keep them in that romantic love/state of intimacy stage. That process alone encourages the partners to develop dynamics that elminate conflict. It makes total sense to me.

I really felt strongly that I needed some help getting started and I'd read that the Harleys can accomplish in just a few coaching sessions what counselors might never do in years. So I took the emotional and financial plunge and called Steve Harley. It cost $x. [O&H - start as you mean to continue]

It was a great hour on the phone. He's the one who encouraged me to think about how I might quantify my statements to you about improving myself and how I might hold myself accountable.

He suggested that given that we hopefully have the same goal (to be in love with each other again), and after I sent you this email, [not a given - assume nothing - his business] that I tell you that I spoke with him and offer you the opportunity to talk with him yourself. What do you think?
realize this is a lot of information to digest so you probably won't have an answer on that, but I wanted to throw it out there.

(closing paragraph--just some personal stuff...) Love, OH

OH, I liked your letter, but I liked it with 5/6's changes even better, because it takes out the, "I think you will agree that..." part, which is kind of not the purpose of the letter. I tihnk the purpose is to solidify for yourself that these things that you are doing, whether your H agrees or disagrees, can make your life more joyful today. Of course, best case is that he will agree, but even if he doesn't, kicking those LBs you identified make your life better and better, everyday.

Are you happier, is your life more full of joy, already than it was when you started here? How is your self-care?

About your H not calling, instead of getting disappointed, how about sharing your O&H about those expectations? This is part of what you are working on, right? Assuming what you think he should do, and then when he doesn't do it, get disappointed in silence? How about making a new plan with him? How about if he doesn't call by a certain time, then you call him?

The letter went out last night. I had already sat on/procrastinated writing it since Steve suggested it last Wednesday. Although it might be optimally better with the "I think you will agree"s taken out---I thought it more important that it should just go already than to niggle it to death as I did the first letter. I'm walking a fine line between trying to reach out from my withdrawn state, trying to keep boundaries that make me feel safe in this state, but trying to apply as many MB principles as seem appropriate.

As far as O&H as you pointed out, Ears, what I did was--this AM I sent him an email updating him on just regular household stuff going on--kids, happenings, etc. I ended with a sentence that said "I was sorry you didn't call last night. I was looking forward to hearing from you". No judgements. No whining "why didn't you call..." etc.

OH,

I liked your second letter, I liked it because you focused on the only person you have any control over, you. Seek first to understand, before being understood. You've put your best foot forward - you've been open and honest - and you've admitted what your plan is to improve yourself and what bad behaviors you've brought into the relationship. You've demonstrated understanding, by understanding yourself and your own role in what has led you to the point where you currently stand in your M. Now, we'll see what kind of response you get back.

I also liked your reaction to potential issues of abuse as to whether or not verbal/emotional abuse is really present in your relationship or if there are just patterns of bad behaviors that have escalated over a long period of time and have been reinforced by both spouses continuing to make the same bad behavioral choices. IMHO, verbal/emotional abuse is one of the most difficult subjects to really constructively deal with on this web forum. I've seen many cases where adopting an abuse mindset does more harm than good - as it largely pits spouses against one another when in some cases there is little real mental or verbal abuse ongoing outside of what the MB system describes as likely behavior when our Takers are running the show due to empty love banks. Please understand, I'm not saying that abuse does or does not exist for you, only you can make that judgement, but I am saying that we should all think long and hard about using the term abuse and adopting a mindset that encourages us to think that we're in an abusive relationship. Remember that reality is perception - and therefore if we choose to believe that we're being abused - then we will react in a manner consistent with that belief - which is a good thing if we are in fact in a verbally and/or emotionally abusive relationship - but it is just as much a bad thing if we're not. I hope this makes sense.

If abuse indeed does exist, then it will become painfully obvious relatively quickly - as none of what you are attempting to do will have any positive result and your H will simply do anything and everything possible to pull you back into old bad abusive behavioral habits - and then you'll have your answer as to how to move forward. Remember to enforce your boundaries - the primary and the secondary boundaries are key. We teach people how to treat us - by first defining who we are (core values - primary boundary), and by what we are willing to accept and not accept behaviorally (secondary boundary).

Thanks HH. I agree with you 100% about what you say re: abuse. I do think that some of what is classified as "abuse" is bad behavior and it is reinforced by the other person accepting it. It's like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum and getting what he wants. The next time he's just more likely to throw a tantrum. It doesn't mean he sits around looking for ways and opportunties to throw one but when face with something he really wants and can't have, that's the skill that's worked for him thus far and that's the one he'll use. So the boundary of no longer accepting that behavior will hopefully encourage other, non-abusive or offensive behaviors. And if the person either escalates the abusive behavior or simply refused to abandon it, then I agree--there's an abusive situation going on.

Steve had an interesting observation when we spoke. He said that in a healthy marriage there should be no boundaries. The problem is the vast majority of marriages discussed on this website are not healthy, hence the boundary enforcement. I guess the next question down the road becomes--when can boundary enforcement be lifted? Or is it simply a case of, the boundary is always there but in a healthy, intimate marriage, neither spouse goes near it to test it?

So far, he has not acknowledged finding or reading the letter I sent in his luggage. What if he disregards this email/2nd letter too?

Does that consitute abuse?

OH, if he disregards your letters, that is information, too. Did you ask Steve about that possibility?

No. We discussed that he'd not acknowledged the first letter. I made a joke about "uh-oh--maybe he never found it in his luggage and now he'll get this email and say 'what letter'?" Steve said that would start a dialogue too, so that's not necessarily bad. But if he pulls his typical ignore thing, then he will never mention it unless I bring it up.