lol, I don't blame you.

I will say, though, a full year and a half after coming here, that when I saw the 2x4s coming, I knew I was in for a learning experience. I didn't want it, but I knew it was coming, and was good for me, if I would just be open to it.

I've learned a whole lot by coming here and listening - really listening - to the 2x4s.

Cat, I get the no way in Hades today. But how about two years from now, if her H has a real heart change, like that couple in FireProof? If they are working together, creating a great family life together, and he's working steady, taking job conflicts in stride instead of threatening to quit every time someone ticks him off? And the same thing with the kids, he is spending the time every week doing the father things dads do that build kids' repsect, like playing catch with them, taking them fishing, instead of sitting on the couch and hollering when they won't get him a snack? I know the examples are not the things OH mentioned, I just mean as an example in general of a team member instead of a person who expects to be catered to.

I've got to see that movie. And even though I haven't mentioned Family Commitment (there are other more pressing issues here), it is very important to me. I think that, if he agrees to work on the items I set as boundaries, the rest could come. One of my requests (not a boundary but a request) in that letter is that if he is willing to look at a completely new idea in how to build a healthy marriage (Marriage Builders--very different from ANY counselor we ever saw), that I would be happy to show him that path. And if he were to buy into MB or a similar program and work it with me, I think a lot of other issues that are now less important (FC, RC, etc.) will smooth out.

I don't want to be a "dark cloud" and rain on any optimism. I applaud you for setting boundaries and doing something instead of helplessly sitting by.

However, we would be unwise to ignore the past 10 years or forget the statistics on how likely people are to change abusive patterns. We need to be awake and sober to what has been the reality and separate that from the hope that we feel that things could/will change.

I mentioned early that MB is harmful when introduced into abusive relationships. I know you don't necessarily agree that your relationship is abusive. But please just keep my advice in mind in case you need it. If following MB principles only seems to make your relationship worse, if you continue to find yourself in double-bind and lose-lose situations, if he seems to be using his emotional needs as weapons against you or similarly interested in focusing in on the EN side of things but doesn't work on the LB side of things one bit... please know that MB principles are not helping your abusive situation. The problem is not that you didn't execute the MB principles correctly. It is that it does not work for an abusive relationship. Abuse requires a different set of actions and principles. Best of luck.

Wouldn't Steve be able to help me sort that out?

Ok, edit: H called tonight. More light talk and updates. So this isn't really an update--just more of the same. LOL

Just remember your goal. To get the marriage YOU need, or separate. You're already wishy washy over the whole thing. How are you going to hold up against any fighting or manipulation?

Get your priorities straight. Either he sees the light, or he doesn't come home.

btw, question. When you say you went to pull him off his work, does that mean you went to where he was working and had him called in from the field (or whatever) in the middle of his shift to talk to you about the emails?

He was doing small/mid sized contract/carpentry at the time.

Possibly. Probably.

It depends on how truly knowledgeable Steve is on abuse. Also, ego comes into play. I use two things in life as my compass often. 1. What is the outcome of something statistically speaking 2. What motivates someone to do what they do? In this case, I'm talking about item #2. I can see how it would be difficult for one to admit that there are situations in which their program does not work. If one has invested a lot of energy into coming up with a system and the success/reputation of that system translates into their livelihood, it becomes increasingly difficult to admit your plan has holes in it.

In defense of him in such matters, I have been told and vaguely remember that in the first chapter of HN/HN, there is a warning that the principles do not work for cases of addiction and/or abuse. I believe he advocates plan B and boundaries in those situations. So in that way, MB does have somewhat of a plan for abusive relationships too. However, some of the writings/articles that I have read of his dealing with the topic feel "off the mark" to me and like he doesn't quite "get it" and may be writing about things which he has never experienced himself or understands only on an intellectual basis-- ones that make logical sense but fall apart quickly in the practical world. I could be wrong; but that was my gut take on it as I read his articles.

At the end of the day, I think it's a mistake to put too much trust in a psychologist. I have had both good and bad experiences with counseling. I can definitely point to a time or two where I was given wrong advice or incorrect reads on dynamics. My most effective counseling has been when I was reading books and spearheading the change myself and checking in with the counselor almost like an accountability partner or as someone to bounce ideas off of to get guidance on what areas might be good to work on. They are also excellent sources for helping you understand the family you grew up in and how that is influencing your current outlook and choices. They definitely have areas where they are great but what I am saying is this: Never ignore what your gut tells you. Psychologists can be very helpful but they are not super human. They don't have all the answers. Don't be afraid to conclude that a counselor is wrong if your gut says something otherwise.

I'm wondering if the aliens that invaded Cat's house somehow got to my husband. He has texted, emailed and called today and each occurence has been non-combative, light-hearted and when we spoke, I actually got to finish a sentence. When I say "light-hearted" I mean that it was non-confrontational. No, there wasn't any relationship talk, but I'm not venturing down that path right now anyway. However, up 'til now, our conversations have been no deeper than "how's the weather" and "what did you eat for dinner" type stuff. Today's conversation was more like our early dating conversations. A lot of "what do you think about XYZ" or "remember that movie we saw..." etc. Weird.

Phone call with Steve is Wed. The 24 hour cancellation deadline is 8AM tomorrow. I did think of cancelling a few times-not because I think things are going well or anything like that, but because I don't know if I love him anymore and if that can be recovered.

RE: The verbal abuse issue. I've been hanging out a bit on GQII and there's a lot of discussion about abuse there. Not that there's ever any excuse for it, but several posters mentioned the verbal and emotional abuse esclalated as their spouse's depression deepened. I'd say that's very likely the case for H. I look back and of course he wasn't always like this. The more depressed he gets, the more frustrated and unhappy he is with life and everything in and around him and the more I become the family dog who gets kicked after a hard day at the office. H was better when he was on meds but he doesn't want to take them anymore--says they blunted his feelings.

How are you? I thought about you while the site was down.

Thanks for thinking of me CWMI. I've not been able to dredge up the emotional energy to update my situation. It's not terrible but perhaps I'm just tired of thinking about it? LOL I did cousel with Steve last week and when I have more time, I'll post an update. H has still either not found or read the letter or he's just not acknowledging it. Our conversations and emails since he's been gone have been pleasant enough, usually sticking to neutral, non-relationship oriented topics. I have tried to make sure that I am truly listening and that he knows I am truly listening to him when he is talking about his family/mother's issus out there. I've been very good about keeping him updated on the kids' activities and in soliciting his opinions about decisions and working POJA--even if I don't call it that to him because he's not with the MB program.

But I'm not finding my stress level/anxiety level decreasing at all. I'm very convinced I no longer want the marriage I had. The question is, can I put forth the effort/do I want to put forth the effort to attain the marriage I want--which has as its goal (per Steve) "for the parents of our children to be in love with each other again". Or is it mentally easier just to separate?

Big decisions, I guess.

I do owe him another email based on my conversation with Steve and I'll post more about that in a bit.

Typos will have to stay--there's no edit function yet.

OH, I don't think it's mentally easy to separate at all. Your unresolved issues still remaining unresolved. Plus you will open a whole new list of issues.

Of course there are reaons to separate, but they should be based on enforcement of boundaries, not on a lack of desire to keep fighting, IMO.

As you said before, you and my W are/were in similar situations. I still remember her saying that she didn't want to get back together because she wanted to see if she would miss me. There were things that needed to be resolved, and separation helped with that. She then refused to do anything remotely like trying to save our marriage, because she didn't want to fight anymore. I've never had a chance since then.

A few things--could use some input:

1. H is still on his trip. He emailed today and asked me to send him some photos of the kids to show the folks out there--I assume friends and family. This is a trigger for me because during his EA with old girlfriend (from that area but doesn't live there now--lives 2000 miles away) he often asked me to send him pics since our camera loads them onto my computer hard drive. I thought he wanted them to have on his own computer drive and maybe to show to his buddies but I found out after Dday that he sent pics of our kids to her! Barf-o-rama. So even though I doubt she's out there--my gut and my snooping have not turned up anything--the whole idea of sending him pictures just turns my stomach at the moment. Plus, he's already got some pics on his hard drive AND for Christmas, we bought his mom a digital photo frame and I loaded it up with about 300 photos. Should I address his request? I hate to keep bringing up my own triggers about the A---just doesn't seem fair. Then again, don't I owe him O&H?

2. And speaking of O&H--I have a potential health scare going on. My aunt called me today to tell me she took that BRAC (?) test (for the breast/ovarian cancer gene) and tested positive so she's being recommended to have her ovaries and both breasts removed. She's 75. She had breast cancer almost 20 years ago and was pronounced a survivor five years after. But recently she underwent another lumpectomy for the other breast. My mother had breast cancer back in the late 60's (and died). So far, no other blood relatives have turned up with cancer But my aunt tells me that the docs say all her blood relatives (her daughter, my sister and me) should be tested.

So...given how things are between H and me, I don't really want to tell him because the last thing I want is for him to try to make this thing work with me just because of a health scare. If we're going to agree to try to reach Steve's goal, then I want him to reach that conclusion on his own without any outside guilt. So do I tell him or not?

I wouldn't tell him about the health scare for now. Time for that later.

I would send the pictures, but calmly mention (O&H) the trigger.

I'm sorry about your mom.

Wow, OH, I can't imagine NOT sharing your O&H about these things with him. What do you think Steve would tell you?

ears, I totally understand your view, but they are in conflict. They may be pretending they are getting along, but they most certainly both in conflict right now. If I were her, I would only want him knowing about my health issues if I were certain that I was number one in his life; anything else, it could all be tarnished. I wouldn't trust anything that happened.

But maybe that's just me and my history.

I have to say I agree with Cat. And the pictures--I don't know. O&H just leads to more "when are you ever going to get past this/I am never going to live this down" accusations. So my choices are send the pictures and say nothing, but stew about it or ignore the email.

Ears, I haven't even put Steve's "goal" question out there for him yet. If he's not on the same page as me on that goal, then there is no marriage. So telling him about health issues now--I don't know--seems like a bad idea.