What made my wife come around was the affection I showed to her that was not sexual in nature in any way. I started giving her full body massages twice a week (something that she loves) I give her undivided attention when the kids are asleep until bedtime, we have great conversation now and she tells me everything and I feel like I can tell her everything as well. Things that I have never told anyone about except for her. I give her hugs, kisses all the time, I started to l eave her little love notes around the house so she can find them. I text her little love messages too once in a while. I dont even mention anything about it, I just do it. I started to help more around the house too. I always helped, like doing the dinners nightly (love my wife but she cant cook :P)but I started to help with the laundry, which is overwhelming at times with 2 boys, and general cleaning up. This seems to help as well. Definitely want to keep contact light and subtle so she does not think its all about sex.

For example were supposed to be going out this Saturday for dinner and to go see a band and do some dancing. So i texted her that I talked to my mom and she will watch the kids and that we should hold off all intimacy until Saturday to make the anticipation that much more special. So I got home from work last night and she told me that there is no way I will last until Saturday. I told her that I can because I do want it to be special. So she took it as a challenge to see if she could have sex with me before Saturday. She started to talk dirty to me at bedtime and grabbed my hand and tried to feel herself with it. But I resisted, even though I was so turned on. And we both laughed afterwords. She told me that she will definitely have me before Saturday. She is going to try some stuff probably tonight. I cant wait!

This feels great. Keep it lighthearted and don't dwell on it and like I said I show affection with no sexual overtones all the time and its working. My wife has not showed this much desire for me in years and it feels great!

Look, it is wonderful that in a relationship where SF is the husband’s top EN but it is not the wife’s top EN, that she enjoys sex. It is great when the wife has a great interest in sex. But you know what? It has very little relevance. Why? Because sexual fulfillment is not her top EN. If one is fulfilling something that is not spouse’s EN, then the spouse does not get much out of it. Sorry, but I don’t get it -- if a woman does not care too much about sex, then why should her husband care about if she enjoys the sex or not? If sex is important to him and not to her, then it is important that he enjoys sex. Whether she enjoys sex or not does not really matter.

Let’s flip it around: suppose that in a certain marriage that conversation is a top need for the wife and very low need for the husband. How should this be handled? Well, it should be handled that her needs for conversation are fulfilled. Do we care if he get anything out of conversation? No, we don’t. If he enjoys conversation, that’s great; if he does not, it does not matter. We are not trying to fulfill his needs of conversation, but her needs. If conversation is important to her and not to him, then it is important that she enjoys the conversation. Whether he enjoys conversation or not does not really matter.

As far as sex being a chore, my answer is: so what? I do not see anything wrong with fulfilling the spouse’s needs as a chore. Look, I do not like to pick up after myself or put away the dishes or do dozens of other things around the house. They are chores. I do it because my wife enjoys me doing these chores, thus fulfilling her EN. Should I quit doing things for my wife because I think that they are chores? Should I quit my job and quit bringing home money to my wife because I think that working is a chore? Absolutely not.

Yes, fulfilling your spouse’s needs is a lot of work. Deal with it.

Because meeting your spouse's ENs works better if it's at least pleasant. Unpleasantness erodes POJA like nobody's business.

Sure, if SF is the bottom need for your wife, she may not want to 'get much out of it' - you don't have to feel obliged to make sure she has multiple earth-shattering orgasms every time.

On the other hand, if you're just grinding away on her, sweaty, unshaven, unshowered, not having brushed your teeth this week, without regard for that knee she sprained walking the dog and the fact that she hates someone squeezing her nipples, saying 'oh, it's not really meant to do anything for you' is extremely callous. (This, dear folks, is NOT a true story from my life, but it is a conglomeration of true factoids.)

And that's assuming SF is not important to her. Many people here on this board have SF maybe not as a top need, but in the top 5, and for them, meeting just the spouse's needs leads to unfulfilled needs for themselves. And to just guess the H has it as #1 and the wife as #9 is pretty naive.

And yeah, I think the same goes with all ENs - you have to make sure that the person meeting your needs has a somewhat easy time of it.

No snide comments about your mother when you're just talking to me because I have a need for conversation.

No throwing fast balls at your head when you're just coming to dodgeball training because of my RC needs.

No leaving cat's vomit lying around because you'll be sweeping the floor tomorrow trying to meet my DS needs.

No quitting my day job when you're only sticking around in your awful job to meet my FS needs.

Me not putting on a migraine-inducing perfume if you try to cuddle with me to meet my Affection needs.

No undercutting you in front of the kids when you try to step up and meet the FC need I have.

No saying 'what do you know about it?!' when you're just giving me a compliment to meet my Admiration needs.

No tearing into you when your attempts to meet my H&O needs bring up some things I don't like.

And no saying 'oh, I'd forgotten what your chin looked like' when you finally shave on behalf of my PA needs.

Yes, fulfilling your spouse's ENs is a lot of work, but it shouldn't be made extra complicated by having to fight through layers of distaste to do it. And it should be a team effort, not an exam where you throw the most difficult situations at people and see whether they fail or not.

POJA, AverageGuy.

Yes totally. My husband meets my need for conversation even though its not that important to him but if I'm talking in a way that makes him feel bad or uncomfortable then he ends the conversation. You really don't want to be putting your partner in a situation where by agreeing to meet your needs they lose love for you and thats exactly what you'll be doing with the attitude of it doesn't matter whether she enjoys it or not.

This is worth repeating.

In addition to all of this, and with specific regards to SF, how SF is approached can fulfill quite a number of other ENs including affection, admiration, conversation, RC and many more. It's when SF becomes the currency for which she needs use to obtain these that becomes a problem.

Let's put it this way. I enjoy SF. But if you were married to me and do what my husband often does, which is to basically ignore me all day (my EN for affection), talk to me only grudgingly (my EN for conversation), leave your crud around for me to clean up after and then, at 10:30, when everyone is in bed and I'm exhausted and make one last pass through the family room before I go to bed...THEN you reach out and make "come here" motions with your hands.

Well let's just say I have a hard time conjuring up some enthusiasm at that point.

Hmm...

I often do things for my marriage/wife that I don't want to do.

I work long hours in a job that I hate so my wife can stay home and do? . . . the kids are in school all day . . . See she hated her job and quit. I hate my job and, well, I do it anyway. Stupid me.

I actively listen to her when she tells me about the fabulous shoes that the just had to have, and that she went to three store before she found them in her size, and that they weren't on sale, but they just made her feel so wonderful and now she is so tired that she must go off to bed and rest while I cook diner for the kids and put them to bed. . . while I had to fire a father of 4 because he missed too much time from work; partially because his wife left him and he was trying to be Mr. Mom . . . and work full time. Yea, the shoe story was a bit much for me, but I took it and smiled.

Marriage is hard. My advice to anyone man that I meet is don't get married. It will ruin you. But that is from my experience. I know that some men enjoy it? I can't even begin to imagine what is up with them.

Esox, I'm the one with the full time job. I'm the one who does dinners, laundry, shopping. 95% of the kid care, etc. Yup, I'm an idiot because I don't draw my line in the sand around it. But I'll be darned if I can dredge up enthusiasm at 10:30 just because he all of a sudden 'wants some'.

I can hear you sister.

I'm you with male plumbing. Sucks doesn't it?

edited . . .

So what are you going to do about it? Just not have sex again? That is pretty much what I've decided. It just isn't worth the effort. See I what to have sex with someone that wants to have sex with me . . . I know . . . that is a lot to ask from a busy wife. So now, I just do my on thing and mark the days off on the calendar. . .

I've tried about every thing I could thing of and things still suck here. Well things suck less because I care less now. I have an inconsiderate roomate that spends most of the the money I earn on junk, but hey I'm not living in Sudan so what do I really have to complain about?

And romagnum is a perfect example of that. By paying attention to what SHE needs and NOT pressing SF (even offering to hold off to make it better for both of them later), she not only meets his SF need, she expands on it and makes it even better for him.

Esox, have you started your own thread? We can offer you a ton of advice on how to turn that marriage around.

Cat,

No I don't have a thread and I should stop interrupting this one with my stuff. Sorry all.

No! Don't stop posting in others' threads! That's how we all learn! I was just saying that we can give you specific advice on your situation if you start your own thread.

Almost right.


Joint enthusiastic agreement

... not a compromise where neither person is satisfied with "compromise"

Joint enthusiastic agreement? I guess Dr. H. doesn't live in my marriage. We seldom agree on anything. And we certainly don't ever enthusiastically agree. In fact just writing "enthusiatic agreement" make me giggle.

Esox, have you read all the material here about Love Busters and Emotional Needs? Get started.

cat,

I've read some of it. It seems one would have to be in a different place in their marriage to do these things . . . like someone would have to care.

Not at all! I came here last October (07). I had a plan to leave my H as soon as D18 graduated from high school. I'd been planning it for at least 5 years. I was VERY skeptical. You can ask anyone here - or read for yourself (but it's long!) - how I have turned my marriage around, started caring again about a man I thought I hated, in a relationship I was so despondent about that I tried to off myself a couple times rather than survive it.

It does work.

But it has to be YOU doing the work, for now, because YOU are the one here, learning.

I don't really want to make my marriage better at this point. I am sick to death of her. I want to learn to survive it until my kids are grown. I know that divorce hurts kids.

Frankly I don't know why I am here, possibly because I feel less alone knowing that a lot of people are in horrible marriages.

Esox, what if you and your wife could fall in love again? And you wouldn't have to spend your time merely surviving. Divorce hurts grown up kids too (my parents divorced when I was 24 and it sucked and still does).

Wouldn't it be worth it to give it another try if a couple of years of a little more effort could get you a lifetime of a better marriage? If you don't care anymore then what do you have to lose by trying?