I think the person who initially suggested those questions phrased the second one much better. "Do you have any thoughts you want to share?" is much more open and welcoming than "what do you think?"

The first way you leave it open to him to say "no, not now." The way you phrased it, there is an implied assumption that (i) he has a coherent reaction to it, and (ii) he is obliged to share it with you. Neither is necessarily the case. He may find the letter so overwhelming he can't decide for himself what he thinks about it. And he may not want to share his jumbled up thoughts with you. Which isn't good for your marriage. But also isn't as nefarious as what your internal thoughts may ascribe to him.

I agree with the poster that said you should share with your H how long you have felt this way and how the letter represents a chronic problem and not merely a momentary fit of irritation.

Seabird, we had that conversation last night. I was able to impart wisdom that I've learned here. LOL That is--he is not responsible for her actions. I think he knows that but then again, he's only 14 and he has a big heart. So I have to reiterate it for him several times. He was waffling last night and I asked him to examine and ask himself: is he having doubts because of the decision to break up with her or is he having doubts about the how and when of it? It was the later, and I told him then to stay the course--if he feels the decision to break up is right for him, then that's what he must do. But I reiterated that he could do it kindly and honestly and to make the decision about him--not about her.

As far as me calling him--I'm hesitant for several reasons. The first one is the time difference. It ups the liklihood that I'll catch him at a bad time. And H can be rude and short with me when I've caught him at a bad time and then I wind up feeling bad because he can't or won't talk which of course, if he's out having dinner, is an appropriate response from him. So in order to keep myself from having to process more self-induced guilt and resentment, I have just adopted the habit of waiting for him to contact me--that goes for when he's home too. If it's not a good time for me to talk, I am honest and I tell him. It doesn't affect him the same way.

OH - About your DS... I don't expect him to get it now. Of course, he's young and feeling very conflicted. He's also been witnessing the dynamic in your home for a while. This is a learning opportunity. That's why I said "eventually". He'll be okay. He's getting good advice. Just keep stressing to him not to take on the added responsibility of her choices. Feeling guilty about the decisions others make for themselves is a gyp.

And I understand your reticence about calling your H and catching him at a bad time. It wouldn't be very productive to reach him when he's in the middle of something and distracted. Can you prearrange a time for you to call him? Perhaps a text to him like, "When would be a good time to call you tonight?". At this point, it's like a sale's negotiation. Don't seek the yes or no answer, like "Can I call you tonight.".

I just talked to H---about an hours+ worth. I don't feel like recapping the entire conversation here--my fingers would probably fall off first--but here are the highlights.

He read both the letter and the email. A sort of funny aside about the letter. The luggage he took was from a set given to us by a friend. This friend was tragically killed about a year ago in a domestic violence dispute. So when H found the letter, his first thought was "why would M put a letter in this luggage?" He could read the handwriting on the envelope so he figured it couldn't be from me because he insists I have beautiful, but illegible handwriting. Luckily, the letter was typewritten.

He apologized for not letting me know he received both letter and email. He said it was obvious I'd put a lot of my heart and soul into those letters and he should have at the very least, tell me he'd read them and that they touched him.

He said he wasn't at a place in his mind where he could respond. When he read the first paragraph of the first letter, he thought it was a "dear John" letter and he put it down because he couldn't bring himself to read it. It took him the better part of the next three days to read it and then he realized it wasn't a 'dear John' letter.

We both wound up crying a lot on the phone. I told him my goal was that I wanted to be in love with him again, with a healthy thriving marriage and that I found help to get me there but that I felt we needed to have the same goal or it didn't make sense. He said he understood that but that he was very mixed up with figuring out how to put the pieces of his life back together (his job, his quality of life, his marriage) and that he felt like he couldn't do one without the other--like they all had to fall in place together. I replied (honestly) that I didn't understand that but I respected it. I felt it would have been a DJ for me to say "that's ridiculous" because well--to him--I guess it isn't!

He also said under the guise of honesty, that he isn't at the point, and doesn't know if he'll ever be at the point, to go back into counseling, read books, read a website, articles, etc. He says he feels too 'raw'. But he supports and applauds my efforts to learn more. He again reiterated he could see how much heart and soul I put into the letters and the email. He said he thought I was taking too much of the blame on myself and that he was the problem. So I told him about how MB has taught me to take a good look at how I communicate and that I found plenty there to improve as well as other 'love busters' as I'd outlined in my email. I said we each have to own our own issues and this is my attempt to step up to the plate and own them. Regardless of what happens with us, these will still be my issues. So given that explanation, he said it made sense.

He told me he's just not able to communicate via email or letters--he doesn't choose to do that and though he wishes I wouldn't either, he will respect the fact that I might make that choice as a safe way to communicate.

We talked a bit more --- a lot more really-- about a potential move and what that might mean, how, when even WHO (just him, all of us, etc.) and while we both realized that we were nowhere near making a decision, he did agree with me that the POJA was a valid and sound concept and that using it could only help us.

As far as the specific things I outlined in that letter--we didn't speak to those--but I felt this was a decent start.

Now what? Should I wait 'til he gets home to discuss the rest?

That all sounds really good OH. I encourage you to spend some time reflecting and digesting all that you guys talked about before deciding your next move. I also recommend shelving any more specific advice from us for the time being until you get a good comfortable grip on that conversation with your H. It is likely and understandable that you've got a lot of adrenaline pumping through you right now. Let it ebb out, and when you're in a very logical place, start outlining your plan.

Just take a little time. Good luck.

Seabird--I was so happy he responded in the way he did--even though he didn't address the specific concerns I set up in that first letter. Under the guise of the overriding goal (as defined during my session w/ SH), everything else becomes an offshoot of that--at least that's the way I'm looking at it.

I agree I need to digest. I am concerned about keeping the flow of communication open and positive. I have to admit that he can and will resort to tactics one can label abusive when he's angry or he feels he's being disrespected by me. I'm hoping that if I hold my own feet to the fire and toss out the SDs. DJs and AOs and try to POJA and respect honesty--well maybe he won't toss out what I feel are thoughtless comments. I really in my heart don't think he's a classic abuser. I think he's a very confused, angry, hurt and depressed guy dealing with what he feels are huge failures in his life. And I don't think he's making the wisest choices and I hurt over that on his behalf because I love him. So I'm really hoping if I just try to keep modeling MB concepts/behavior, we will hoepfully find the right way out of this mess.

I do know I have a breaking point now and I know where that point is and I'm ready to do something about it if it comes to that. I'm not writing that as a threat and I won't say that to him as an implied threat. It's more of a boundary for me.

Thanks for your support.

*HUGS*

At first glance, this seems positive!

Yay! You could always suggest a mediator for your conversations. It might be worth the money.

OH,

I've been lurking here for a few months now,trying to find that *elusive couple/story* that I could relate to. It might surprise you how I came to learn about MB.

I am you, your H is my H...to a T...

I have gone back and read all your threads...relating...reliving...

I smiled as I read your last entry about your conversation with your H.

I am so happy for you and wanted to tell you this (why I joined)... because even here we are the same...I didn't know about MB,LB's, or any of this and my stand was not a letter to my H (although I did that as well),I guess you can say I went right to plan B...(if you would like to know the history I will be more than happy to share it with you privately).

My H said THIS was his 2x4 that woke him up and HE went on a soul search, reading all he could find on saving his marriage...my H sent me the link to MB's (and many other site's) so I could see how he was *working* on himself.

I returned home at H's insistence, and things have gotten better and better between us...his journey of self discovery prompted my journey...which is why I read here every day...I found the story I could relate to, and took everyone's advice as my own...(sorry for stealing lol , and thank-you everyone for your wonderful council to OH)

I'm hoping things work out as well for you as they seem to be with me and my H. I still have moments of *who are you and what have you done with my Husband*...but it seems as though our marriage meant enough to us that we BOTH are making big changes...

Just wanted you to know that there is hope, and I'm so happy for you...

Thanks for writing. It almost sounds as if you were my H and I was more like your H! He has no desire to read any of the MB stuff, talk to SH, read the forums, articles, etc. Perhaps that might change if he sees me modeling behavior that has a positive impact on our relationship.

No OH, I can assure you...for the longest time I was the reader and H told me NOT to diagnose him, not to label him and lots and lots of other AO, DJ's etc...

The 2x4 I delivered is what apparently sent him to start reading...soul searching was his term...

I hope your not under the impression he is still reading...lol...silly girl....

What has changed though is that I NOW feel more safe talking to him...I am no longer told to *let it go*...*your too sensitive*...*grow up*...*get over it*...

I no longer get the silent treatment for days on end...(this was one thing I REFUSED to tolerate any longer)...

I no longer fear going to him and opening a discussion which before was met with a solid wall of defensiveness...

I had NEVER dealt with anyone like this before in my life...I had no idea WTH just happened...

At first I found myself trying to take a stand...then I found myself more and more backing down and tip toeing around so as to NOT upset him...or the boat...or ANYTHING...

Then I started to feel the injustice of it all, after all I was a partner in this marriage too...when did I stop having a voice? I started to speak up and then everything became an *issue* or a *fight*...and any subject I tried to open was met with *YOUR LOOKING FOR A FIGHT*....NO!!! I want a grown up discussion....you know, the kind that *hey this kinda bothers/hurts me*, then you discuss it and then you find a happy medium, and a conclusion both can live with...NOT...your looking for a fight and you better back off....

I backed off alright...I backed right out of his life (plan B)...

Much like you (your letters),there were terms I needed in place in order to be able to return home...I took my stand and along the way saw what I was doing to contribute...hence BOTH our journeys...

In trying to find my voice I was just as guilty of AO's and DJ's...we were so busy laying blame at each others feet and finger pointing we kinda forgot to look in the mirror at ourselves....

I had done plenty of reading...he did not...

Until I was gone...THEN he did plenty of reading and sent me this site, which I think has helped ME to get back to who I used to be before my journey into he!!... I've returned to *think before you react*..

I had always been the type to think first,speak later...words said in anger can NEVER be taken back..and the damage can run very deep...but I became this ugly person who also started to jump to the defense...who reacted before thinking because I was always on guard....whats going to upset him today? Just because this was acceptable yesterday doesn't mean it will be acceptable today....I became so lost and confused...I became someone I didn't like at all...and if I didn't like me how could he? And yet when did I change? How did I become this hurt, defensive, insecure person?

Lots of reading...lots of work...lots of changing...and we're doing it together (now)...I don't ever want to be afraid to go to the one person in my life who I am supposed to feel the safest with...

Wow, that's quite a story. I can relate to a lot of it. You can probably identify with my feeling that I was walking on eggshells so much of the time.

I think that my backing down enforces his poor communication tactics. It is probably quicker and easier to get what he wants when he steamrolls over me. I really don't think he wakes up every morning wondering how he's going to make me miserable. I think he's so lost in his own personal stuff and feeling very alone as my SDs and DJs didn't make him feel I was on his team, that he lashed out. And I lashed back. And around we went. Well you are right. SOMEONE has to break the cycle. And by discovering MB, I think I found the vehicle to help me be the one who does it.

I hope that by following these procedures, he'll see that they work and he'll follow them too. In the long run, it might not even be that important that he read all the MB stuff (though I would love it if he'd talk to SH at least once....that's down the road--I"m not going to shove that down his throat).

And I have my boundary (the letter). I keep reminding myself I have it. It's my safety belt. I hope one day down the road we are successful at reinventing ourselves and I won't need to think about that boundary.

I'm just baby steps into this thing. I've been on this site since Nov. and it's taken me this long to make my stand and even have this kind of conversation with H. I don't expect to hear from him again today and that's ok. I imagine he is doing what I am and is digesting a lot of emotional stuff.

You see OH, I told you he read the letter. He just doesn't know how to respond yet. I can respect that for various potential reasons.

I agree that your initial conversation was a decent start also. Let's be happy for small steps right? You both walked away from that conversation feeling like something was accomplished, feelings were expressed, and perhaps even more importantly, feelings were validated for both of you. Some good some bad, some things are certain others are uncertain. Such is life. There is still much to do but you've both started out on a good note. Kudos to both of you in this regard. Build on it from here, but also be patient - remember two steps forward one step back when it comes to the game of life. In a previous post you had wondered about how on earth you could bridge these topics over the phone with the current distance factor. I say, this could be to your collective advantage - sometimes having some space between the two of you - especially when dealing with potentially explosive issues like the future of your M - is a good thing. The distance can help both of you if you use it right. I don't believe anything happens by accident - and it is no accident that this journey for the two of you has started with 3000 miles between you.

Lastly, you also addressed the fact that Steve Harley had mentioned that in a good M there are no boundaries. While I wasn't there on the phone and I'm not Steve - I'd submit what I think he may mean is that people who have healthy marriages are also healthy individuals - and that to some extent - the good relationship habits for those with healthy marriages just "work" without any real effort. I would say it's akin to learning to ride a bike, or learning to drive, or like any new skill that we have to learn really. At first, there are a lot of things we need to focus on in order to learn the skill in question - but after a while - we just do it without even thinking about it - it comes naturally to us after a while.

Eventually, the issue of enforcing certain boundaries won't be necessary, but for now - you both need to commit to suspending learned behaviors that are destructive to your M and replacing them with new behaviors that are constructive to your M. I think that is an important point to emphasize as well - merely attempting to stop a bad habit is oftentimes much more difficult than replacing the bad habit with a good habit. Elimination versus substitution. For instance, I can try and stop smoking by just cold turkey quitting - and some people can - but most people need something else to substitute for the smoking - exercise, gum, food, you name it - especially in the short term - to get over the temptation to return to the old bad habit. Again, the same pattern emerges similar to the learning of a new skill - at first it's hard - and we need help in the form of substitution of some new healthy habit in place of the old harmful habit - but as we reinforce the new healthy behavioral patterns - it becomes second nature to us over time. To a large extent, this concept is the basis of cognitive behavioral therapies.

Good luck and many blessings OH!

Know the eggshells well OH, lol...

I can tell you one thing that I started to make a habit... Saying to him...*TALK* to me...not as in I need to talk to you, but as in TALK not yell...I started to refuse engaging in yelling. Kinda tough when you feel on the defense but very important. I think the loudest words are said with the softest tone. I simply refused to engage. *Please hear me out* became another habit...I was tired of not being able to make my point or express my point of view.If he cut me off, I simply stopped talking,heard him out,then asked may I finish?

I had to make him realize we didn't have to agree, we both were entitled to our opinions...that didn't make either one of us right or wrong, it simply meant we each had our own point of view.

Much like saying I'm sorry doesn't mean there is a winner and a loser...it simply means what ever the fight is about isn't worth the unhappiness and hurt it is causing...

Your on the right path and should be proud of yourself. There's nothing wrong with what you are asking for in your marriage.I never had a problem being alone with myself and my thoughts, were as I think my H did...not sure about your H, but if he is like mine then yes he is doing a LOT of thinking...leave him to it and don't worry...

go get a pedicure,
go to lunch or dinner with a friend,
go snoop around in a store,
go do anything you felt you couldn't do while he was there..

enjoy your you time and let him come into his own...

it already sounds like he is on the right path back to you...

huggs OH...

you did good !!!

Thanks HH. My mind is reeling with "what should I do next" as I'd posted, but Seabird had some good advice and suggested I just reflect for a bit.

You are correct about Steve. He did emphasize "healthy" marriage--which is where he wants everyone to be, of course. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. And I agree with you and he about that--that's why I mentioned holding on to the concept of my letter as my boundary.

In time, I'm sure I'll be posting and asking for lots of advice about how to stay the course--make sure that I am replacing bad habits with good--and also--how I can coax H along this journey with me without force-feeding him a website, some books and a coach.

I wasn't expecting to hear from him again today but he just called about 1/2 hour ago. He's doing a lot of networking out there and a former co-worker of mine had just called him and the timing of the call was extremely funny. I had just exchanged an email with this guy about a project and had just mentioned that H would probably have many contacts of the type he was seeking and I think it was just after I sent that email that this guy made H's phone ring. They've been trying to get together for a beer and it hasn't happened yet but I think it will now. LOL

H called more to talk to the kids and that's ok. He's not been able to connect with them as often as he would have liked since much of our contact has been via email and text and the phone calls have come late at night--that three hour time difference again.

Thanks for the words of encouragement bbspdr. Just hearing him say that he had read my letter and email and how he was touched and understood how much of my heart and soul I'd poured into them---and how he was sorry he didn't at least acknowledge that. I wasn't mad--I think I understood he was at a logjam. But it opened the floodgates for me. I've not been able to cry in front of him for a long long time but I did today. Of course, he did the typical guy thing--he HATES it when I cry--and he tried to get me to stop and asked me "what are you crying about?"

Then he started too. LOL

I wasn't mad--I think I understood he was at a logjam.


Isn't a loving heart-felt understanding so much better than a DJ?






Kinda like falling in love again

I can't edit. The above post was supposed to quote your one liner about "isn't a loving heart-felt understanding..." and then my reply is below that.

ARGH! I wish they'd get the edit function working again.