We've exchanged about 5-6 emails today about the kids--one son in a situation about breaking up with his girlfriend--his mother, etc. No mention of letter. But we are supposed to talk around 7PM tonight. Problem is I might have my daughter with me--if so I'll have to reschedule.

Still can't edit! I meant to add---nothing has been said about talking about the letters. It was in response to my comment of I had hoped to hear from him last night after I delivered my medical news.

Believe me, I understand. I can't even do what you have done! MY big step was to just speak out loud that I've thought of leaving! And it took me 30 years to get that courage!

I just don't want you to let yourself back down out of insecurity. You deserve better than that. You deserve better from HIM.

If he doesn't step up, unfortunately, it's on your shoulders (as usual, huh?).

Just keep the faith, cos we're rooting for you, 'k?

{{{OH}}}

Just know that if he chooses not to do the work, he's a fool. He'll figure that out, in time. But you'll have done what's right for you and your kids.

Thanks everyone. Your support means a lot. Don't know if we'll talk tonight. Picking time/place is important because I don't really want either of us to have the excuse of distractions to back out of a conversation.

He replied to my earlier email today recapping a conversation I had with our son re: his girlfriend. I want him to talk to DS as well--I can give him the 'girl' view but I think he needs the 'guy' view too. So I asked him to set aside some time to talk to DS tonight--he needs to take advantage of any fence mending with DS14 anyway. They have a rocky relationship.

Anyway, he emailed back and said he liked my responses to him--and I quote "very impressive actually".

So I cut/pasted that part of his email, hit 'reply' and added

...'all that recent introspection I've done must be paying off'

Never was coached by the Harleys, but I was coached by one of their "disciples". I would imagine that when someone calls SH for the first time, he operates from the assumption that the caller has a little patience and love for their spouse left. Because someone who was truly "done" would have called a lawyer rather than SH. I imagine SH suggests most callers do a Plan A, even if only for a short time, to offer a "carrot" to the non-calling spouse. And to show off the calling spouse's best side should SH decide that the caller quickly needs to move into Plan B. Hence I am not surprised to read that the letter SH coached her to write sounds like a Plan A letter.

Perhaps we should leave it to SH - who has the benefit of speaking to OH over the telephone can thus can hear her tone of voice - to decide when OH is ready to go to Plan B.

Between now and then, we can help OH plot out her reaction when she welcomes her husband home - since it sounds from her replies that she is not ready to "rock the boat" until after his return. If I am wrong, and she is thinking of changing the locks before her husband returns, then I would advise her to call a lawyer ASAP. Because that is surely what her husband will do when he gets home and finds the locks changed.

Note that in my state it is illegal to change the locks prior to an approved legal separation.

FWIW... I think you deserve KUDOS for this enlightenment, not 2x4's.

JMHO.

Yes, the first question Steve H asked me is 'what is your goal here'? And of course I wasn't going to answer "well I want to divorce my husband"! If I felt that way, then I wouldn't be on this website, as Hold said. So I said that I wanted to be in love with him again. And he suggested I assume he feels the same way.

So I suppose when we speak, I need to ask him if he's read those letters and what his thoughts are. Then I need to ask if he has the same goal. If he does, we go on from there but if he doesn't, there's not much point.

I'm aggravated--no--hurt-- that I've put my soul out there on the line now twice and he's chosen to not respond. That doesn't bode well for where his head is at, I suppose.

It may just be his conflict avoidance.

Also, I always assume that the other person is just as insecure about themself as I am. Thinking you won't want them.

Just one theory among many but it could be that his need to win over-powers any sense of empathy. Especially towards the end of my bad relationship, I poured my heart out into page-long emails trying to reach some sense of understanding. I was confused and she was always such a mystery and puzzling question mark to me. And yet she would respond to my page long emails with "I think you are imagining things which I am not doing" or "work on yourself". If I'd apologize, she'd just nod and act satisfied but she rarely apologized in return. An abuser will not care to give you closure. They'd rather things be in the grey area... and even get mad when people challenge their lies. I had to move on without the truth from her lips to give me closure; I had to forgive without an apology from her. It takes a lot of mental strength to pull yourself back together without the luxery of the truth but it's doable.

IAgree

So after gearing myself up to talk to him tonight--it never happened. Yes, the time change works against us but I thought he would at least want to talk to DS14 about his girlfriend situation.

I just need to ask him what--one or two questions? 1) Did you read the letters I sent to you? 2) What do you think?

It's tempting to add something about how I poured my heart into them but hopefully that's obvious to him.

If he says "we'll discuss when I get home" I say...."no, I need to at least know now if you are on the same page as I am as far as the goal. The details can be worked out later."

He could say any number of other things and I've not got an answer worked out for any of them.

I had a text all prepared to send to him last night but chickened out. It said "I can't do this anymore".

I really don't want to end this by text.

I think it important that he knows you didn't write the letter in a moment of upset or anger, but that it was long in coming and written after you'd given it a lot of thought and resolve. How you would convey that, I'm not sure. I have some concerns that he read it and is shrugging it off, thinking it will blow over, and that you were PMS or had a bad day, or whatever...

I think he needs to know it was years in the making and long overdue. I think this will clarify things for him a bit.

OH, you have said a few times that you poured out your heart to him, and are hurt that he doesn't scknowledge that. I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. At the same time, it sounds to me similar to like when someone says, "I would have moved heaven and earth for her, and she didn't notice or care." It's like, yes, those sure are pretty words to use, but what are the actions? We don't give to get, we give because we choose to. He doesn't owe you a response, just because you thought through your side. You owed yourself that, OH. To reason through your side. It wasn't a gift that he wanted and asked you for and promised you he would do something in return. You were dishonest with him for a long time, and now you are thinking through your O&H so you can share it with him. I think that's a great start to making amends for your half. But why would he trust something that you've done twice so far? I hear you, you're done, and that's okay, but I hope that you continue with your amends to yourself, and stay honest. Then, if he fixes his half, too, he'll hear from your kids how honest you are, you won't need letters to prove it. Also, if you look at Seabird's post yesterday, there were two questions to ask your H there, do you think those two apply? I hope what I said makes sense as I rush out the door this morning.

Thanks for sharing, because I see alot of myself, a lot of thinking yes, I'm so different, and I need H to make changes, too. Without asking myself how long the proof has been in the pudding.

Seabird's questions are totally appropriate and of course, it took me the better part of the afternoon and evening to work myself up to knowing I was going to be able to ask him those questions, or at least a version of those questions.

And then he didn't call.

I'm also upset on DS14's behalf as I thought it would be a great idea for him to work through how to dump his first girlfriend (LOL) from a guy's perspective. Seriously--DS14 is a marshmallow inside and tough as nails on the outside--like his father--as H likes to say... Anyway, S14 is more concerned with how the girl is going to feel at this point than with his own feelings. They've been "dating" (as much as two 14 year olds can date) since July of last year and he's been feeling this way since January. He feels like it's "too long" (his words) and he wants time to hang out with his friends, focus more on sports, etc. Totally appropriate--I tried to reassure him of that last night. Anyway, I counseled him to be upfront and truthful but not hurtful and to make it about him--he's not ready for this commitment--than about her.

I sent H a long email about our conversation and we also talked about it. I told him I really thought he needed a Dad's side perspective on this and H cautioned me not to make a big deal out of it.

This girl is having a birthday party this weekend and is inviting camp friends. Right or wrong, if S14 breaks it off with her beforehand, she will cancel the party. I've told him not to let guilt over that rule his actions, but perhaps there's a way he can appear for part of the party (it's a 2 day thing at a local hotel) and then do his break up thing next week. But I'm trying to be very conscious of how H feels when I unilaterally make decisions about the kids without his input and he knew I wanted to talk about this situation.

Please correct me if I'm off, but I don't think of a 14 year old breaking up or not breaking up with his girlfriend and when and where as a family decision. I think of it as solely his decision, and he initiates talks with his parents when he needs guidance. And then you all would have a veto and intervene if there is inappropriate stuff going on, like domestic violence. Hopefully cat will be by soon, and others who have had kids these ages.

That's not what I meant. I was talking about his attendance at her party this weekend. He already knows he wants to break off with her. I have to admit I had to bite back both a mental and verbal "I told you so" to H who has been up in arms and knocking heads with DS about this girlfriend thing since last summer. He thinks S is too young; I think it was an age appropriate relationship and was glad for the distance involved as it limited their time together. But here we are almost 9 months later and S has, in fact decided this is not what he wants. He's looking for guidance to do this the right way and I commend him for that. I want H to be involved for several reasons. He is already feeling like I shut him out of the kids' lives and I'm trying to rectify that. H and DS don't have the best relationship and this could be a chance to do some fence mending. And when H and I spoke yesterday, we both assumed S was not going to go to this party. But in talking about the party logistics with S last night (information I hadn't had from the girl's mother when I'd spoken to H), I realized that he could really just attend a small part of this party and assauge his guilt over leaving her high and dry right before her party. And that's the conversation I want to have with H.

Does that make more sense to you?

Well, I do think this would an excellent opportunity for MrOH to have a morals talk with his son; these are just the moments that resonate with the kids, and help them form 'their' opinions. I don't know how many times I've heard my D18 spout off something as her own opinion that I know came word for word from my mouth; and she doesn't even realize she's doing it.

Of course, hopefully MrOH would have good advice!

But you can't make him want to be involved. Therefore, if I were you, OH, I would sit your son down and tell him how YOU think a young man of his age ought to handle it. If he were mine, I would have told him to wait until after the party, and to take her to the park or on a walk, so that they will have time to talk it out and remain friends.

fwiw, I've been telling my D18 for 10 years now that high school romances are just that - for high school. You can expect to have 3 or 4 bf/gf in any given year, they may seem serious, but kids are too young to know what they are going to want as adults.

I also emphasize that high school romances are testing grounds, for practicing to get it right later. That, in no way should she go into a high school romance thinking she's going to find the love of her life, because they will both just be too immature, and not finished developing their personalities yet. So see these relationships for what they are: fun times, NOT a time to be playing around with SF(!) (save that for college), and not to be serious about.

Note that that doesn't mean be a player. It just means go into them letting the other person know you have no intention of 'falling in love' in high school, or even college. You've got too much work ahead of you for that.

JMHO

I agree with you Cat, on the role of HS romances in a person's life and S and I had that discussion last night.

She lives about 90 miles away. The idea of telling her after the party, in person is a good one. I didn't think of that. I might suggest it to S. I'm not sure in theory it will work well, as the girl has invited mostly camp friends and we are trying to structure S's attendance at this party so that it's brief because I think she'll be able to sense a distance from him and it could throw a damper on the party for her. Plus, he's very stressed out about the actual doing of the breaking up--first time he's had to do this and he feels badly about it. So we might be back to him having to do this by phone the following day.

I actually meant a few days later. Didn't realize she wasn't nearby. I don't think a phone call is out of order in this situation.

DS needs to eventually learn (same as you, same as MrOH, same as everyone who comes here) that he can't own his STBXGF's actions. It's not fair for that boy to bear the responsibility of whether or not she has a party. That's her choice to make. Her action to own.

OH - Why do you need to wait for MrOH to call you? Do logistics preclude you from reaching him tonight? I know you've mentioned the time difference, and his being out and about with family.