OH, what did you want him to do? I thought his response was pretty good and surprised that you're wanting more.

As for letting you vent, didn't he pretty much do that? Did you let him know that you appreciated his response in anyway?

Ok, I probably need to clarify.

The reference to Thelma and Louise is a reference to just running away from it all, NOT a veiled reference to suicide. I probably should have picked a different movie.

As far as H's response, I'm really ok with it. It's the overriding black cloud (gray/black--same ol' same ol') that I find myself under lately which makes it hard for me to appreciate much of anything. As often is the case with my moods, it will lighten.

I do want to emphasize though, that the anxiety and stress I'm feeling over H coming home is real. As I mentioned in a reply to Ears_Open--I feel an overwhelming sense of responsibility to hold up, carry through and be consistent with my 50% and I'm afraid of falling short of the mark. I also am apprehensive of the possibility of having to follow through on what I said in my first letter. Yes, I know I drew the line in the sand and now I have to enforce it but the entire thing was so far out of my comfort zone to begin with, that the anxiety is not unexpected.

No, not unexpected. You're not alone, OH. How about telling your H about the routines you have going, and POJA the week out before he gets back? And then you can lpan the following week out the following Sunday? To give you a sense of safety and predictability for the time being?

You mean the routines we've got going since he left?

I do feel a bit better. Pounded the pavement for 5 miles with headphones blasting good classic rock. A good run.

Debbie Downer Day...

gotta love that menopausal boogie...

OH, try to keep that in mind too...I remember many times *expecting* from my H only to be disappointed.

I forgot he wasn't a mind reader, and I defiantly did not always tell him what I needed, throw in a little hormonal seasoning and you're cookin up a nice mess...

This was called *let's test him and watch him fail*...Then multiply the hurt by 100% because we're a hot flashin emotional mess to start with...lol

I know it goes beyond *our female issues* (as my H likes to call it)...but I really needed to remind myself to pull back and sit with my feelings for a while...some hurt was justified, but some was also *blown* out of proportion in my own head...(because he failed...see the round and round we also create?)

hang in there OH...huggs

oh, and about that *line in the sand*? as scary as it is...stand by it...that *line* woke my H up and saved our marriage!

Just remember that even if you separate - even if you divorce - he can still choose to do the work to win you back. In fact you standing up for your boundaries WILL make you even more attractive and make him desire you more. Human nature.

He called tonight and we talked some more. Not "talk-talked" (I'm probably no more in the mood for 'relationship' talk than he is right now. LOL)--but just some logistical talk. When we spoke last night, he was coming home from some 'grip-and-grin' (networking) meeting--something to do with social marketing/e-marketing. This is a pretty crucial piece of the marketing mix that he (and I to a lesser degree) is missing in his experience because of when he came into the business and when he stepped out of it. But his reaction to last night's meeting was more negative than positive. He was having a hard time seeing how he could ever be happy just settling for being part of the picture, instead of driving the entire picture.

I think this started my Debbie-Downer mode. To me, his attitude feels out-of-touch. I'm afraid if he doesn't truly realize how the marketing function has changed over the past 10 years or so, he might never find a job. And with the employment picture being what it is, the deck is stacked against him to begin with. And then I just went whole-hog and rolled in my own issues, the kids' issues--so that it was all spilling out of one box. I've been on my own with these kids for almost 3 weeks now and even though they're older, it's still exhausting.

Anyway, today he was saying that he wasn't able to get as much done as he'd hoped during his trip. He is thinking he might have to come back for a longer period of time--even find a PT job--in order to be 'on the ground' and considered the local job market.

Oddly, this is really fine with me. If he does do an 'on the ground' strategy--at least the way I'm currently feeling, it seems as though 'what will be, will be' as far as us. He certainly wants us all out there but I'm not sure I could commit unless he had steady employment and a good track record. I think that's just common sense. In reality, I could probably convince my company to let me work remotely but I don't want to rock the boat unless I'm sure it's the right thing to do.

All of this ruminating still doesn't change the nearer term fact that he's coming home and I need to study up on my boundary lines and enforce them if necessary.

**edit**

Maybe it's because I'm a workaholic. But I simply can't get past the point that he CHOSE not to work for 5 years because everything was beneath him, or some such.

What man does that? I just can't get past that. To me, it's too big a character flaw for me to live with.

The same entitled mindset that Mys is facing with her H. He doesn't have to live by everyone else's rules. Why would he? He's lived for everyone else his whole life, and now he's finally getting what he deserves. Don't you remember? She "betrayed" him by supporting him financially when they first married. How dare she think that she could ask to be treated like an equal after that? Maybe if she keeps trying harder, she'll be able to make up for it and earn back the right to be treated as fellow human.

Like that analogy in Why Does He Do That, with the public park, that the family for whatever reason told the boy would be his when he grew up. Then when he grew up, and other folks came and used HIS park, even though it was promised to him, he lashed back. Why would he want to give that park back? They told him it was already his.

But OH is changing the dance! None of these patterns are set in stone. She can keep trying new things. OH, I wonder if you've ever read Luck's story? She had to go through with the divorce and live apart with her daughter, and then her H became willing to work with her again. She did have that consistency, every day. You can do this, too, OH!

Ears! I am shocked; I can't believe I am reading this.

Where is all the talk about owning our own side of things? About not reacting to his reactions? That whole post sounded to me like you were saying that she should re-arrange herself based on the way that he might react. She has set boundaries for herself. I think it is wise that she stick to them.

BIG PICTURE. BIG PICTURE. OH's marriage didn't get to where it is today because of the way things have been in the last month. It's this way because of the way the last FIVE and TEN years. And his unemployment is a significant part of it. We are where we are because one excuse turned into another (one more chance... one more chance... one more chance... and ten years later we are still handing out "one more chance".

I agree with OH that her husband's view is out of touch. I have an uncle that her description matches. He's a dreamer; dreams big. He wanted to be a rock-star. Then he wanted to be a pilot. Then he wanted to be a music producer. Now he's "ditched" his whole family to go on tour-- still pursuing his rock and roll fantasy as a man in his 40s. He hasn't held down a steady job in 10+ years. His roof leaks. His children struggle to keep their cars running-- they work and pay for their own cars. And meanwhile he takes his wife's income and buys music equipment with it. Notice the parasitic dynamic. She works hard and all he can do is think of himself and sucks resources from the family and wife for his own selfish out-of-touch dreams of fame.

My uncle nor OH's husband will probably never change his "dreamer" and "grandiose vision" of what their importance in this world is. However, my aunt should really not be enabling this behavior. I support her feelings in letting him be out there on his own... let him spin his wheels with his grandiose ideas. But until he learns to work with society in ways that "work", then he's not allowed to come home and suck them of their resources. If he can't contribute to the family and all he does is suck resources, then he is harming the family and needs to be out of the circle till he learns to behave in ways that work with reality.

IAgree, you know me, that's not how I think is true. And I don't think that's what OH believes is true, especially on a good day, either. I'm asking as a question, do you have these thoughts? Because that is the dynamic at work here. He has pushed thse thoughts on her for a long time, and she sits and takes it, until she decided she's not, and shoe's doubting her willingness to saty consistent if there is an angry controlling person in her home. What I was trying to say is let's look at these messages he feeds her here, in a safe place, so when she's back in the situation, she will have the thought pattern of remembering her truth instead. The last sentence in the part you quoted should be edited out, I already notified the mods. Not appopriate, her H hasn't threatened self-harm.

IAgree and ears open

I understand both sides of this picture and I'm sure OH does too.

It's a floundering thing though...*I've had enough*,and you take your stand...then the little niggling doubt sets in...but what about his side? Am I being fair? Am I wrong...this self doubt in a way though lets us see both sides,ours and his...

That's why I said before I would try to sit with my thoughts...some things you just can't bend on, but only you know what they are...then its YOUR job to make them clear to the other person...(boundary)

There will always be give and take, and there will always be compromise...unfortunately most of US are the ones who compromised ourselves right into a corner,so that when we do turn around and call foul play, they look at us like we are aliens...*what???? I can't have it MY way any more???? you mean I have to share?????

OH, you have your letters...some things will be set in stone, some things MAY be negotiable...that's up to you.YOU decide what you can no longer stomach and then maybe some you can *give in* to your H...meet halfway...so he feels he has some say too...

I can only base things on what I have been threw personally...I found I had my *hill's* and I also had some back down's too...

Don't be afraid to send your H an e-mail pointing out the fact that you already said BEFORE you come home I would like to have some things in place...

whats the worst thing that could happen? you might end up as you are now? alone? except of course you wont have the constant lump in your throat...

It's a fine line you walk right now...I remember it well...how do I make him understand how he is hurting me without totally turning him off to our marriage (and me)...

But at some point you have to stop worrying about how he will react simply because your very sanity depends on it...

See both sides, that's fine...but in the end find your *hill's*...define them...then leave it up to him to decide if HE is willing to accept your boundaries and willing to negotiate the rest...

EO, I read your post to mean that holding a boundary doesn't mean that you forget to have empathy for your spouse's situation. Often, a boundary will hurt, and it's not ok to just ignore that because you know you're doing the right thing. It is not revenge, but it will hurt, it just should never harm. If our spouses do have any real harm from our boundaries, it is because they chose not to respond according to the boundary, not because the boundary was there in the first place.

Plus, I would like to reiterate that separation or divorce IS NOT DEATH. It is not unalterable. It is fixable. She has supported him all this time, and he HAS LET HER.

Time for him to grow up. Hurt feelings or not. If he chooses to respond and WORK to get his family back, I'm all for it. It is what I want for OH.

But IMO he will NEVER do that while he is still living with her and sucking off of her. Sometimes you have to help someone grow up.

OH, go back and read The Dance of Anger again; you can read it in one day, before he gets back. It will help you enforce your boundaries while still respecting him and maintaining compassion again.

What's the worst that can happen if she doesn't let him come back into the home? Or makes him leave in 3 weeks like she said? It's not like she'd be losing any income to run the house. And he would HAVE to get a job to pay for his apartment. Maybe then he would realize it's not as bad as he's been believing.

To everyone who posted here last night while I was tossing and turning and trying to sleep--thank you!

I couldn't sleep because I know he's coming back Tuesday and I know I have to *do* something. I wrote that letter, it was very clear where my boundaries are. On Steve Harley's advice, I wrote a follow up email that clarified the actions I intend to take and I quantified those and allowed measures for my accountability. I understand the logic behind that. It's part and parcel of fixing up my 50%.

But now---I do feel as though it's time for another email. I want him to know I was dead serious and that he either comes home with a plan that's acceptable to both of us or we POJA a plan here together within a few days of his being home.

I don't know how to write this email though.

I don't want to sound self-serving.
I don't want to sound demanding and full of DJs and SDs
I don't want to reiterate everything I've already said.
I do want this communication to be short but not "cold" in feeling.
I want to restate my goal--"for the parents of our children to be in love with each other again" and to let him know that achieving that goal will not happen overnight, nor will it happen unless it's both of our goals. He told me on the phone that his goals are all mixed together and interdependent upon each other and I think I can understand that--for a guy whose identity is so tied up in his professional image--he feels that getting that house in order has to happen before or alongside everything else. That doesn't mean I have to settle for what I had before while he's on that journey though. And I don't know how to communicate that in a thoughtful way either.

So I'm stressing about writing this email. Other things I'm stressing about, such as talking to him about our finances so he really understands the picture--well, that's best done in person.

Cat--to address what you said about him not working. I'm not making excuses for him. I think he's made some poor choices over the years steeped in an attitude that have fed into this extended unemployment. I don't know if that will change and that scares the carp out of me. But I do want you to know that he has not sat there and CHOSEN not to work for the better part of the last 8 years. He lost a job in early 2002. If he had been willing to 'settle' for a lesser paying/responsible job right then, he probably would have found another job in 3-6 months. But he'd spent the past 20 years working to achieve that seniority level, where he was the CMO and he refused to back down. He was setting his sights high. Hindsight is 20/20. Where I took issue with him was when he took a part time job at Home Depot after his severence ran out, to make his UI stretch further but then quit that job out of pride. That screwed up his UI and he lost it. That put us in a serious financial tailspin.

I can't remember the exact timing of the next events but at some point, he realized he could work free lance carpentry jobs because he was pretty good with tools. So he put a few ads out and flyers up and took some small jobs. That led to larger jobs and soon he was being asked to refinish basements and rehab kitchens and bathrooms. I really wished that at this point, he would have gotten his contractor's license and gone for it whole hog. And it looked as though he might do that--he had a crew of 2 (and 2 more part-timers) and they were crusining through some serious rehab jobs. But then his best guy quit and took the other guy with him and I don't know why, but H got himself all twisted up around that and was never able to recover. The jobs he was working on suffered as he went over time and budget. That pushed other jobs back. And it dinged his self confidence. So that changed his attitude from "I'm not going back to the corporate world and I'm going to try to make this work" to "I'm just going to do this as a holding thing until something better comes along"--and his business and our income suffered as a result.

He went to work for a short time for a large contracting company, figuring he would still be in the business but not have the headaches of his own business--but he couldn't work at their breakneck pace so was let go.

He languished for the rest of that year (2006). Towards the end of the year, I hooked him up with a guy who was a friend of my boss who had a design firm that worked with banks. They were looking for an account director and with his background in marketing and finance, it seemed like a good fit. He went in at about 3/4 the salary he was making in 2002. And he hated that part of it from the beginning. He felt he was worth more. He didn't respect the people who ran the company and was frustated that they were happy being just vendors instead of full marketing partners. He was there for a little over a year and then let go when the company lost its biggest clients and let pretty much all of their staff of 11 go.

He's not gotten over that.

So I'm not judging here or asking you to judge. This is what I'm facing. Sure, I might have handled this differently and I wish that he had, too. I see people reinventing themselves all the time when their careers take a hit. That's why I got frustrated with his attitude about that networking meeting. I'm fearful that if he doesn't find a way to adjust his attitude, he will never find a job!

Interesting that his uncle's perception of him is also that he's a dreamer.

Dreamers are good--we need those in our lives. And if a dreamer is married to a thinker (which is what I am), that can really work to everyone's advantage--if neither side digs in their heels (and learns to POJA!) I have a friend (a thinker) married to a dreamer and they are delirously happy but I think they just instinctively know how to go with their strengths and POJA.

My dad was a dreamer. He dreamed he should take over a pool hall back in Colorado and lost all our money. He dreamed he would be NASA's best engineer and become their godsend; he became a forgotten, backroom nobody. So he dreamed he could get a better wife and started having affairs and left. Then he married a woman who was an even bigger dreamer than him, and she sucked him dry before he died - after she got all his assets forwarded to HER son and illegitimate daughter.

I'm sorry, but this IS a character flaw. One you couldn't have known, but there it is. The only mistake you have made is becoming his enabler. Enablers hurt their partner by not forcing them to get over their dreaming by pulling back the support.

You have to do this - for HIM. Or he'll end up a nobody just like my dad.

I completely disagree with your categorical description of dreamers, Cat.

Your Dad was a dreamer and he made bad decisions enabled, as you say by your mother.

That's not the way it has to be.

Where would we be in this world if we didn't have dreamers?

I'm back to Harley's POJA. It can be done with a dreamer and I think both thinker and dreamer benefit.

I'm sorry, but I think you're way off base on this one because you are letting your past experience color your perception of the entire category. I'm not excusing H's past behaviors or my past behaviors. But I'm not going to write him off because he's a dreamer and I'm not going to say that being a dreamer is a "character flaw" (talk about a major DJ, Cat...)

If it can't be fixed, then this Thinker will have to go her own way. But it won't be because he's a "character-flawed Dreamer".

OH, what I meant was that a dreamer has to live within rational boundaries. What's that saying, behind every great man...?

The character flaw is in what that dreamer does with his dream. Yes? The one who sits on the couch for 5 years, or lets his hurt feelings over a coworker leaving, or gives up because no one recognizes his worth...that's the one who has to learn to grow up.

Trump is a dreamer. Gates is a dreamer. Jobs is a dreamer. Dreamers who didn't accept no, who did what it takes. Your H hit roadblocks, and let those roadblocks be his excuse to quit.

The character flaw I spoke of, was in letting his wife support their family while he indulged in his over-inflated ego.

I know it's not black and white, I know it was a continually changing landscape that no one could have predicted. But you're here now. Ready to take that huge step to ensure a great future, hopefully with him picking up his slack and becoming a great role model for the kids. But it won't happen if you start feeling bad for him again, and let him slide. This is one time you need to practice Tough Love.

That's all I was trying to say. Sorry if I offended.

OH, I'm thinking, does it matter what you say or don't say in the email? Of course, bring it here, and we'll check it for DJs and all. But the DJs aren't just harmful to your H when he hears them. They are harmful in the thinking because they sap you of the confidence that you need here. Steve I think may be the most confident person I've ever spoken to. That confidence is contagious. So I am asking you to think about your confidence before you write this letter, to think of it as, "Yes we can."

Will you? Will he? I don't know, but look at you, OH, you're doing what you need to do today. Building a great momentum, with peace and order in your home. You aren't asking him to turn the boat. You already got the help you needed to do that, and Steve affirmed that you are strong and capable and validated your course and helped you make the refinements to go full steam ahead. Your H is coming back on board, as your partner, charting this course together. Full steam ahead together.

I am so proud of you, thankful that you are sharing this journey. Cat and Jayne did that, too, shared along the way as they turned their ships around, and when I have doubt, I only have to remind myself that it's being done every day, and that I have what it takes to do this, too.