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OH, no 2x4 intended...just a little nudge to remind you that YOU had a plan with those letters...

From what you wrote about your conversation with your H, it seemed he kinda got it...that's the start...don't allow him to derail you

H, I want you to know how much I appreciated our open and honest conversation the other night, with that in mind,it is very important to ME to know if you are in agreement and willing to have SOMETHING in place before you come home. Where as I miss you and do love you, I simply cannot continue our relationship in the vein it has taken. I see so much positive WE can BOTH gain from this, as long as WE are willing to work TOGETHER in a COMMON goal. Please know in my heart I am hoping this marriage means as much to you as it does to me and I really NEED this from you right now...

something along that line maybe?

I love you, I miss you...however...

Lets you be appreciative of him, shows you care, but also lets him know you weren't making light of something so important to you....

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Here's something from lildoggie's GQII thread (before her thread on Recovery):

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2127091&page=65

Quote
For me, thanks for the bump N2F
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
_________________________
Lil 35, Flick 39
DD's 17,12
Recovery 21/7/08
lildoggie@ymail.com


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Ok, I can't find anything else right now, I thought lildoggie had posted something. Maybe it was a 2nd PBL after a false recovery.

I think sometimes ppl just resend the PBL, or at least re-state the conditions.

Maybe you can read around on GQII (when oh when can we have search again???) or even start a post over there asking for advice. State your sitch, H wasn't involved in infidelity this time that you know of, but you basically wrote a PBL when he left for an extended trip and now he's coming back home. How to strike a balance between welcoming him lovingly home and showing that you're working on your stuff, vs. enforcing the conditions you set out in the PBL.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Im here, what you after?


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Hi lil! hurray

I thought maybe you wrote Flick a letter when he was about to come home again, non?

Here's OH's question:

Quote
Have people here actually posted what they wrote or said after plan B?

Her sitch is a lot like a PB, but not exactly.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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hmm, i wrote alot of rubbish smile

I don't remember writing anything except a PB letter he didnt accept, then another one which was the same except saying that I had found out contact again. I remember the first PBL had a bit in it about thinking I had let him homer to soon and had not prootected myself and my boundries and it would be best if he left. That was the one he didnt accept.

Umm, there was another one.. I'll go look for it


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I did find this one, but I wrote it without any MB input so its not so eloquent as the rest I gave him wink

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10 june 2008
Dear WH
Today is the 3 month date of when you walked out of my life. It comes after 3 of the hardest months of my life. And now your back. I know you don’t really have any feeling for me yet & that you miss her. I understand and yet it still saddens me,
When you sent me those txt last Wednesday I was so blown away and happy and full of hope as I was so close to telling you it was over.
I cherish the things you have done this last week. Making more contact with me, a txt with xxx in it, buying my pic on FB, taking ‘sexy eyes’ off her pic, resisting looking at her house last night, changing the cell tone, possibly deleting her numbers from your phone.
WH please look at my list. Please talk about it with me. Give me your own requests. These will make me feel you are serious about making this work.
Right now I still feel very insecure about all this. To be honest a large part of me thinks that really you are just biding your time, waiting for her to wake up, make contact and declare undying love and fidelity to you. Until then, you here because it means you get your meals cooked, your clothes cleaned and sex, and it’s better than stating on your own at FIL’s.
I never want to feel like I did when you told me it was over, ever again. I couldn’t bear it, it nearly killed me. Something I have learnt over this time is that while my life without feels incomplete, I can survive without you.
As long as I don’t feel you want to work on our marriage, I am going to hold back a part of my heart so that if you leave, it doesn’t hurt so much.
You probably wont like this letter, I didn’t like writing it. I am sorry I haven’t been the wife you want. Help me to be her
Love LD


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FWIW this is my PBL

Quote
Dear Flick,
This is the most difficult letter that I’ve ever written in my life.

I have been doing a lot of thinking in the 3 weeks since you ‘came home’. I have finally come to some conclusions.
I still have feelings for you that range from great affection to love. This surprises me considering the amount of hurt I have felt during the last 6 months. I guess this proves to me that I did have a large love balance with you. It is because of these feelings that I still have that I have come to realise some things.
I would like to retain these good feelings and memories of you, I do not wish to grow to hate you.
So despite the fact that really I do not want to do this, the sensible part of me dictates that I have let you come home too early, too easily, and have not stood up for myself. I have allowed you to cross boundaries I shouldn’t have. I have a strong commitment to my marriage, but not at the expense of my self worth. I want to stay a joyful person.

I want you to know that I am truly sorry for my part in creating the environment that helped to make this affair possible. I pursued my career without understanding my primary responsibility as your wife. I deeply regret that I did not give you the time, attention, and affection that you desired to be happy. I hope that one day you will forgive me so we can create a new future together.

Over these last few months, I have been learning what a marriage should be and I’ve tried to show you this during the times that we’re together and I have learnt alot. It’s like a light bulb came on for me and I think I know what’s needed to make our marriage a happy, loving and supportive place to be. I have made so many changes. I believe I have shown to you that I can and am willing to make these changes. But the biggest thing I have learned is that there isn’t anybody or anything as important to me as you are. I truly believe you are the man I asked God for, and that He sent you to me. However, every time I see you or talk to you now, my heart breaks because I want so much for things to be different. I want more than you are willing to give to me right now.

I am confident that we can overcome our problems and that we can start a new life together meeting each other’s needs so that we can both be happy. Even if it involves moving away from dairying so that we can spend more time with each other, and enjoying our two wonderful girls, spending time doing new things together and with friends, making memories.

I’ve tried so hard to stay connected to you even under extremely difficult circumstances & I treasure every contact that we have. However, this situation has become too excruciating for me to endure. Knowing that you want someone else is tearing me to pieces. This is unbearable. Also I know you are still seriously grieving Fred. I want to help you with that, and be supportive; it was a very sad time for me too. I regret that we both couldn't have been of more comfort to each other

So I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a real chance, I will still love you and want to try again. The only way I can think of to do this is to end all contact with you until the PQ is no longer a part of our marriage and you are truly willing to work on it. This kills me because this is not what I want. I haven’t made this decision to punish you; it’s to protect my feelings for you and our chances at a real reconciliation. If I carry on like this, there will be nothing left. I almost sent you a letter similar to this after Rarotonga, but you said you wanted to come home. I should have done it anyway. These last 3 weeks have been very bittersweet.

Please do not call, e-mail, or text unless you have permanently separated from The PQ and have decided that you want to work on rebuilding our marriage with me. I don’t want your relationship with the girls to suffer more so I will be as flexible as possible with visitation of them, however you can’t have contact with me during pick up and drop off times. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice, such as your mum, Nikki or Vikki D

It is not that I don't want you in my life, I want this more than anything, but I want all of you… and I want you all to myself. Sharing you is just too painful. I hope that one day you will decide to come back so we can begin again. I want to grow old with you.

Love Lil


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That was a great PBL!

OH, even if there's not a current OW, do you think there are pieces there that you can use? Like, for instance:

"I want you to know that I am truly sorry for my part in creating the environment that helped to make this affair possible. ...

"Over these last few months, I have been learning what a marriage should be and I’ve tried to show you this during the times that we’re together and I have learnt alot. It’s like a light bulb came on for me and I think I know what’s needed to make our marriage a happy, loving and supportive place to be. I have made so many changes. ...

"I am confident that we can overcome our problems and that we can start a new life together meeting each other’s needs so that we can both be happy. ... "

I'm not saying you should add that verbatim, but maybe you can get some ideas of what you want your letter to be like, the message you want to convey... how you want to enforce the conditions you've laid out...

And of course, use your best judgment regarding how long it can be and still hold his attention. smile


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Yes, I was VERY lucky in that while Flick loaths reading, he would read my very long letters. Sometimes I wondered if it was so I wouldnt make him have a R talk :crosseyedcrazy:


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I've been thinking about writing that email and I have decided not to do it. The letter I put in his luggage was basically a Plan B letter, without the insistence on no contact until the affair is ended. Per Steve, it was missing the quantification and accountability factor so I sent him a follow up email with that.

I think sending him another email now would be like me saying "HELLO? DID YOU HEAR ME? REREAD THE LETTER" and so on. I think it's a bit of a cop out for a conversation I'd rather not have face to face.

So, I need to plan out where and when to have this conversation that needs to start as:

Now that you are home, I'd like to discuss the things I wrote about in that letter. What is your plan?

He gets home Tues evening. Given schedules, I think Wed is the earliest we're going to have this conversation. I just hope that I can refrain from anger and resentment and letting that creep into my attitude.

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I like the idea of no email, too. OH, forgive my faulty memory. Has there ever been a history of domestic violence between you two? I remember you said something like you used to break dishes? How long ago did you stop that? How consistent have you been? Does your H have a destructiveness too? If you don't want to share that part of your history, I understand, just some folks do have this as an issue and I don't know if you mentioned that to Steve. I didn't bring it up to most of the MCs we went to, and I think that may have been part of the reaon we didn't get advice that fit our real situation.


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No domestic violence, Ears. The breaking stuff started the night I discovered that the woman he had always told me was 'just a HS friend' was in fact, someone with whom he had been in love and at that period in time, thought he was in love with again.

I stopped doing it last summer--I guess MC did do something positive for us.

It wasn't constant. But it was usually dishes--never anything exclusively his or mine. And what would happen is that we'd have an argument or some other stupid thing would happen and I would bottle up my anger and I'd be doing dishes when it all came boiling over and I'd start throwing the dishes into the sink hard enough to break them.


YAY! Edit is back!

The reason I decided no email is that I'm taking a leap of faith that, after he said to me that he was aware of and appreciated all the thought I put into those letters and how difficult it was, and how he was touched---well I am going to give him the benefit if the doubt at the moment and believe that he has been seriously thinking about these things and has come up with a plan.

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I'm personally so bummed, OH, because a good friend of mine is looking at separating, and she's not telling her H, because risk of domestic violence escalates drastically when women leave or have the man removed. Even in cases where there was emotional abuse but not previous physical abuse. I had minimized the risk in my head, and I asked her, why not be honest, and she reminded me of this, which I've heard before. And I asked her, has your H been violent? And she thought that she'd told me at the time. She had told me her H had a blow-up, but not about the physical part that had badly bruised her. So I'm just saying, if this is your case, please call a local agency for advice, and don't rely on us layfolks, KWIM?


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OH, I'm glad that's something that isn't a problem for you today.


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There's never been physical violence, Ears. Although I do admit pushing him once or twice in anger, shoving him out of bed one night in the middle of the night. I've never even slapped his face. I guess you could say I've been physically violent? I think it's wrong I shoved him and pushed him, but he outweighs me by almost 100lbs and is over a foot taller.

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I've been thinking about writing that email and I have decided not to do it.

Just as well...
Quote
You need to have a plan about finding and maintaining employment. You needto cut way back on the alcohol. And we both need to be more courteous and considerate of each other.

Nooooo! As before, what right has a spouse to tell the other what to do, think or feel? 'We need' is a sneaky 'you need'.

I had some comments on your letter and will give them even though you're not sending it.

Quote
Dear H:

I am looking forward to your coming home on Tuesday. We've all I missed you.

I want to share with you how I am honestly feeling. I am afraid. [repetition for dramatic effect. Not necessary. Less drama's better.] I am afraid that I will fail at meeting the goals I have set for myself thus ultimately failing at attaining the goal most important to me--to be in love with you again.

I am also afraid that you will choose not to address [His stuff! Not OK.] tThe issues I brought up in my first letter, which are still a cause of great pain and anxiety to me. [Your stuff. OK.]

I hope you have a safe flight home. I am taking it one day at a time, baby steps. I have set great goals for myself, but am trying to refrain from falling prey to expectations. [I'm not sure what the second part of that means, but I don't like the sound of it. Expectations of him, maybe? Which again, is his stuff]

Love,

OH [Good!]


FWIW I think you did a great job of deflecting suggestions that you give your H ultimata. I got the impression your attitude to your H has changed, and also his to you.

You asked earlier what had come over your H - where had your old H gone, or words or that effect.

He might be wondering where the old OH went too. Keep it up!


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Originally Posted by 5outof6aintbad
Quote
I've been thinking about writing that email and I have decided not to do it.

Just as well...
[quote]You need to have a plan about finding and maintaining employment. You needto cut way back on the alcohol. And we both need to be more courteous and considerate of each other.

I said that's what I really wanted to say. I didn't say I was going to say that. Ok, you can 2x4 me for the mental DJ but it is what it is.

It's moot anyway since I'm not sending it.

I'm still planning on sitting down with him soon after his return and asking him about his plans.


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Quote
I said that's what I really wanted to say. I didn't say I was going to say that. Ok, you can 2x4 me for the mental DJ but it is what it is.

It's moot anyway since I'm not sending it.

I'm still planning on sitting down with him soon after his return and asking him about his plans.

Ok here ya go... :twobyfour:

(That's quite the dramatic 2x4! Not subtle at all!)

Anyway, it isn't moot... like you said, it's still mental DJ's, and that affects your attitude. (You know that, I saw you tell someone else it! LOL)

And... it will come out in the conversation you're gonna have.

IMHO it would be good to get a clear idea of the things you want to say... and if you're like me, in the heat of the moment DJs may come out unless you've really thought through how they are wrong and incorrect, and you've recognized that you disagree with them. Cus if you still think them, you may say them... or it will show up in your attitude, your tone, your face.

I *really* like 5/6's version. If you decide that is an honest expression of what you want to say, then I suggest you work on committing it to memory... not to memorize, but so you can remember what to say and generally how to say it.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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OH I wonder if you might underestimate the effect of your physical abuse of your H.

It's not OK, and as for the size difference - in a sense, that makes him the helpless one, and you the bully, as he is unable to reply in kind.

My W hit me on two occasions too, 'girly slaps', though they did leave bruises. It might be useful for you to know how that affected our R. It didn't strengthen it.

I didn't feel endangered at the time; the size difference is similar to that between you and your H. I remember abstractly thinking, as she was hitting me, that what I had recently read, and disbelieved in my case, was true. Verbal abuse *does* almost invariably lead to physical abuse.

Both times I left the house.

Later I came to wonder what she might do next - pull a knife while I was asleep? Even seemingly minor physical abuse can make you feel unsafe.

I know you've read the Basic Concepts, so you know Harley talks about the escalation of abuse in one spouse's attempts to prevail over the other - starting with SDs, to DJs, to AOs, to physical abuse. And how this is a stupid strategy. But REALLY common (in both senses) in my experience.

Do you regret pushing your H? How does he really feel about it? And you?


Me 49 SAHD; W 41 SAHM; DS3, DS4.
Seven year affairage.
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