I've sent H links to MB and have read to him from my computer and have turned my computer to him while online to show him things and have left my computer open to MB and left it with him... Nothing has taken. Until recently...

And I have to thank you, LousyGolfer, for the material to help H see.

When I was trying to get POJA last week with H about MB, I sent him an email explaining how MB is helping me and I believe us. H responded: "I guess I don't understand how/why you need a website to tell you what behaviour is appropriate or inappropriate. I also don't understand how someone with your intelligence level needs a website to explain how bad affairs and lying can be to a marriage. It's your process and I don't want to stand in the way."

Not really POJA so I came back with what I get out of MB with: "I don't go to MB to learn how bad affairs and lying can be. I knew that and still know that. I go there to understand and learn what I can do to try to recover our marriage and help you heal. To learn what has and has not worked for couples who are trying to recover and re-build their relationship. It's about getting tools to help you, me, and us -- just like we were learning in marriage counseling. And it helps me to see things from another point of view. Because it's anonymous, I can open up without judgements based on who you and I are. Let me give you one example from my own thread. I wrote a couple of weeks back that based on some quick comments you had made, I was worried about you in the condo up at Whistler without me. I explained how the year before I had used your computer to check emails including those from the other man and also told how I had made advances toward you that you neglected or turned down and how disappointed I was by those denials. So I told the story from my perspective and how it was a definite marker in our relationship for me. Here's the response I got from a male poster:"

I then posted LG's response to me from early in March. It was a perfect example of how y'all are helping me. And it helped H see. H responded: "He's spot on correct. I think I conveyed the same message to you, but in a different way. I like his pieces of the puzzle comments. It didn't matter what I did or said last Spring."

So while he still has not embraced MB and still wants to get through this H's way -- with nothing from MC, IC, MB, or any other acronym you can throw at it, he believes that if I spend appropriate amounts of time on MB, it is fine.

Sounds like H sees the forum as a lecture of the 'obvious' more than RL people trying to find their way through this mess. Have you told him that most here share his feelings and say the EXACT same things he says to you? Or does H assume that he's 'special' and no one could possibly understand what he is going through? Maybe if you told him poster BS#1 said he felt his WS must have hated him too or poster BS#2 said she didn't want to love her WS anymore because she was scared of being hurt again...fill in the example with something that will resonant with him based off of feelings he has expressed to you...maybe, just maybe he will be willing to open up to the MB possibility. Even if he never posts, the reading will do him good.

You can always coax him with...b_r bashed me over the head with a 2x4. In some weird way it might appeal to him to know that what he is feeling is normal.

I just read an amazing post by Mark1952 on "Muted Sparkle's Journey..." thread. I don't want to t/j her thread so I want to respond to parts of your post here, Mark, whether you read it or not.

This is where my tears started.

I am impatient. I need to remember this.

And how can it be that some of us do this?

This is where I've been really struggling. I want to pay for what I've done. And while I have somewhat, I'm not paying like my BH. How can I ever make amends?

God is great.

I try to make things right. All the time. Sometimes to my detriment. I am broken and have been for a long, long time.

I'll take the long version too.

I'm glad I stopped by Sparkle's thread tonight. I know it wasn't meant for me, but thank you, Mark.

These two things are in juxtaposition against this...
You see, L4, there really is no way to make up for the wrongs we have done. We can't work hard enough, long enough or fast enough to remove the consequences of what we have done. Like the toothpaste analogy recently used on another thread, you can't put it back in the tube. There are no magic words or magic wands or magic incantations that will take away our guilt.

A young boy had only the lunch his mother had packed for him. It wasn't much but he offered it to Jesus. And the first thing Jesus did was to bless it, but then he took it and broke it into pieces. It wasn't much that the boy was able to give, but after it had been broken it became a great miracle and the boy got to be part of that miracle.

But first, what he gave had to be blessed and broken...

We know we have reached the end of ourselves only when we realize that we have nothing left to give. That is when we have offered it all. That is when it is blessed and gets broken so that God can use it for His purposes.

Forgiveness cannot be earned, only accepted.

Don't feel forgiven? Maybe it hasn't all been given over to Him yet. Maybe you're still trying to pay. Maybe you're still holding a little in reserve...

Mark

L4:

I was going to just post a "hello" and glad your back...

And then you post all that sweet stuff....

LG>>>>

This is a marathon. Not a sprint. Your behaviors WILL change your husbands. I will never say that he will get fully onboard with MB. But your better behaviors will make it easier for him.

LG

While I'm sure he would appreciate knowing you're keeping me in line, he might git skeerd -- that you'd do the same to him. :MrEEk: You may not know it, b_r, but your reputation preceeds you. In a good way. You're a great butt-kicker.

I think I might be.

Thank you, Mark.

I have my moments.

Thanks for saying hello. I see you and everyone else here as being my water stations. My hydration stops along the L4 Marathon course. Thanks for coming out to volunteer.

L4,

If you get time, could you drop in on someone new here? I think you could help...

Link:CLICK HERE

Hey, TheRoad. On that other thread, thanks for trying. I really appreciate you saying what you did. It was nice to read that at least one other person on here understands the power of ugly, unfair, and unjust words.

Thank you.

Thank you for your faith in me, Mark, but I question this. I want to help some around here, but hold back because I'm afraid that giving an opinion or trying to voice my response as a FWW might provoke quick judgments similar to unfair responses I've received in the past. And then the help for the poster gets off track.

What I might consider empathy and trying to guide WWs from a place that I know -- that of guilt, despair, and confusion... Others consider my words as encouraging wrongful behavior and/or simply unworthy input because of the source. Or it's wrong input because my thoughts differ from theirs. And they let me know it. I have a pretty thick skin, but it's human, not concrete.

Don't get me wrong. It's good when I'm told to be careful with what I'm saying. Goodness knows I'm no relationship expert and I appreciate constructive discussions involving differing opinions -- on any topic, actually. So I need to be kept in check as you never know how someone might read something. Yet I believe there is a polite way of doing this. V did a great job of cautioning me a few weeks ago and really opening my eyes. There are mature ways of talking to others.

I find that after having posted on here for over 5 months, I'm less and less likely to jump in and "help" WWs. I'm sticking more and more to those threads I've been with. The self-righteousness by a few around here and their better-than-thou attitudes are real turn-offs. And slowly, the targets of their attacks silently slip away.

And that saddens me. Because I want to stick around. Those of you helping here mean the world to me and I like your mixed-up, funny, matter-of-fact, thoughtful, butt-kickin', supportive, crazy, company.

I trust your judgment, Mark, and hope I was able to offer Faith something of use.

So today... Where are we? Friday? Seems like a great time to focus on the good.

I love my H. He works so hard to provide for our family. He's also helping his father who is going through a divorce, and his mother who is having some issues. He's a really good man.

I have two great kids. My son is clever and really loves to learn. He shares with me and likes spending time with me still. We love to play catch in the backyard and play board/card games. He's a really good reader and even though he hates practicing the piano, he's good at it. My daughter is a character -- sweet and silly with a touch of mischief. She dances at the drop of a hat, she has the greatest laugh, she's a creative artist, loves to sing, loves to give to others, and can be a real sneaker. We have to keep our eyes on her.

I'm psyched for baseball season to start. (Go Mariners!)

H is going up to stay with his father tomorrow night an hour north of here and I've been invited to a "starting over" dinner party with some neighborhood ladies for a friend who's divorce is becoming final. It's been really hard on her and we're lending our support.

Today I'll be working out, enjoying the sun after it having snowed just two days ago, and hopefully getting some family time tonight along with some later couple time.

Did I mention that I love my H?

Life is good.

I like your post on faithventures thread L4.

Like you I cautiously post and think it carefully before I do. As you say both because of knowing that despair and confusion and wanting to help the relationship.

But also because I think it reaffirms all those things that as WWs we have learned and are changing refelcting within ourselves. I post and I hope that if someone thinks I've got it wrong that they will point it out to me. And if I got it wrong then it's possible that someone else might have the same wrong thought and then we all leard form each other.

But, the namecalling makes me sad, just isn't really constructive.

I'll see your "like" and raise it to "love."

Seriously, L4, good post. That's why I sugested you stop by the thread. Message delivered with no beatings...

Mark

Ditto, great post Mark... oh sorry ... L4, the length of the post through me off

There we are you see, someone out there willing to correct me

L4 & Stay:

Do you two have the right to be here and post?

Sure.

As much right as any other poster here. Whether BS or WS.

Will you sometimes cross a line and get somethings tossed at you?

Sure. But only if those things that you posted are contrary to MB principles. I post what I think, and what I feel. I leave it at that. If someone else wants to start getting into my stuff about something I post, I leave it there. If I posted an MB principle, or plan, then I'm not worried about the other posters.

Will there be threads about how horrible waywards are? Sure. Usually about once a week.....

Soon, you will realize that that was the type of person you WERE, and not who you are NOW. And that is all that matters. And you will just ignore those rant threads, as it just one way for the pain to be expressed and reduced for those posters.

Please notice that there is NO Forum here for "Waywards Only" or for those in a "Affair". Why? Because this is the Marriage Builders site, and having forums like that would detrimental to any that just wanted to post there, seeking support for thier wrong behavior.

Why is this site dominated by betrayed spouses? Well, the longer you hang around, the reasons become clear. Betrayed spouses are trying to figure out what the heck went wrong, and waywards are trying to be "happy", so they don't need a MB site.

Can it be difficult to be here as a formerly wayward? The longer you stay, the easier it is. Because you learn more and more, and then you become less and less wayward. The "fog" continues to clear. You learn more and more MB principles and your marriage continues to get better. And THAT is what matters, right?

I disturbs me that posters drift away. But why they drift away? Sometimes its because they get the 2x4's that are difficult to handle. Sometimes its because they are NOT willing to do the difficult work that recovery entails. And sometimes its because they just have a life elsewhere.

So. If someone posts something here that results in me being upset, I first want to make sure what I am getting mad about. WHY is this getting me upset? And then I review my MB principles and go from there to formulate a response, if any. And some folks just like the argument sometimes. And I leave it at that.

Should you temper your posting as you see fit? Sure, you can. Nobody wants to be attacked, and nobody wants to be called names. But your story is important. Your ability to describe where you are at is important. Your ability to help, even ONE MORE wayward spouse to come clean and get right, to be an example of WHAT it takes, and that it CAN BE done, is the important part. So post away.

I joined this forum 3 months after dday, and a month and a half after going to the MB Weekend. I remember my first post here. I have moved so far from that. There is the class of 2007. They call themselves the Amigos. Many of them are no longer posting. They have moved on, gave back as much as they could. This MB organization saved my life. I continue to give back because I have to. You can too.

(((L4))) and (((STAY)))

LG

Hello Looking4,

The great quote from lousygolfer says it better than anyone else and is absolutely true and should be your mantra.

The thread Defining the New Marriage is what this is all about and MUST be successful or there is zero chance of the marriage recovering.

Vittoria mentioned she did not believe a word out of her WH mouth for FOUR months after d-day which is fairly close to where you guys are at. Your BH quote of I don't think I WANT to love you echo's his fear that there is not a NEW L4 to trust his love to. He is waiting for a tangible sign to show him that you are indeed broken of your old mindset, that you feel sorrow for HIS pain, that there are NO MORE secrets that will come out YEARS down the road and that there is repentance being LIVED everyday.

Did you have a chance to visit with your pastor and confess the rest of your story to him? Have you two made yourself accountable to anyone else for what you do and say to each other? I know Dr. Harley recommends that you must be accountable to someone or most people wont be...

I know that for Mrs.Flint and I when she exposed to the entire family with letters of apology to the family AND told the children the truth was when she FINALLY got the weight off of her shoulders and could begin to heal. At that time I could SEE she was no longer justifying her actions and was truly repentant. She also was accountable to EVERYONE because everyone in the family knew about the affair.

I think one point of view that maybe has been missed here is that if you know your husband needs something, just do it for him without asking him if he wants you to. I know I always felt like why should I have to beg for something when the OM got it handed over for free. I am not just talking about SF either, I'm talking about ending the DJ's about I tried to do this and I tried to do that and he wouldn't listen. If you get that that did not entitle you to an affair then stop quoting your husband's mistakes and how hard you tried to get him involved in the marriage...

As long as you have the mindset of dragging up your husband's misdeeds HE IS GOING TO KEEP DRAGGING UP YOURS!!!

YOU MUST HAVE A NEW START WITH A NEW MARRIAGE or you are going to be here ten years from now still writing about an unengaged husband that is afraid of you and plays it safe by staying aloof...

Your mistakes and his need to be in the PAST and stay there. What matters is today and tommorow. You must break yourself and your husband free from the past or you will contaminate each brand new day forever with the old.

The other day I apologized to Mrs.Flint for some act of stupidity I had done years ago and her reply was this:

"You know, I don't even think about that anymore because I see everyday that we are not the same people as we were at that time... "

YOU MUST DEFINE THE NEW MARRIAGE BY LEAVING BEHIND THE TOXIC PARTS OF THE OLD THE MOST IMPORTANT OF WHICH IS BLAME!!!

Looking4, you are still blaming your husband, not for the affair, but you are blaming him for his lack of being a better husband. By that right, you are also giving him the right to blame you for your affair, FOREVER!!!

YOU BOTH MUST STOP!

There can NEVER be recovery while you both are blaming each other.

Guess how I know that this is true?

Yep, BTDT.

We stopped.

So can you guys.

Tell your husband:

I no longer blame you for the problems in our marriage. Those things are in the past and will stay in the past. From this day forward I promise I will begin every day brand new loving you and if there is ever a problem I will discuss it with you in an adult manner and with love at that time. I need you to look at us and give our family and our children the chance to recover we deserve.

Sign it! Date it! Laminate it!

Because I guarantee you will get to see him pull it out and show it to you again...

But only if you have the guts to mean it.

Well, cowgirl?

By the way,



Jim

Such good posts by LG and JF, I love reading this thread.

FYI L4, my H is still a bit foggy, and I still have some bricks left in the wall. I know with time they will go away.

Like it takes 9 months to gain weight in pregnancy, it can take much longer to lose it. My WH had years to collect fog, if I expect him to clear it overnight, I am setting myself up for failure.

You are still a bit foggy also. Might it be your stubbornness that won't let you recognize this and thus allow you to let go of the past. Since patience is not your strong suit, could you be thinking that you are already fixed?

The other day, after H and I had just finished reading another chapter in LoveBusters, he made a comment.
It was " I never realized how important a wife should be. "

My first thought was to clobber him, since I took it as an insult to our M and my title. Really, I wanted to clobber him. My parents were everything to each other and this is how I saw a H and W.

Then I thought, thinking of his community, his parents, and thought .... you are finally getting it. Patience, Patience, Patience.

BTW Jim, that is probably another line in the next phase for me.

Take care

L4,
so many people post great advice to you, i feel I have nothing to really say.

YOU do have thwe right to be here, and I for one would miss the insight to the 'other side' you give me if you stopped.
AND I think your awesome.

So there.