not me.

"OH and I agree that OH is not an abuser." Well OK. But I didn't call anyone an abuser.

The 'label' I used, and which OH objected to, I think, was 'physical abuse', when applied to her pushing her H. I think the label is accurate.

SD to DJ to AO to physical abuse is pretty classic escalation.

"Let sleeping dogs lie"? Doesn't sound "fair" to me.


Partly.
The rest of my point is that physical abuse is wrong. A sincere apology is a good start to making amends for the wrong.

I detect proud defiance. "Im not making excuses", followed by excuses and minimising.

But no contrition as yet, so I guess an apology is a long way off.

Exactly who is 'sticking their head in the sand'?

Yup, a pretty good sized fight this afternoon--by telephone. I tried to apply the MB principles but either I was messing up, or H wasn't having any of it.

It started about money. H got a speeding ticket to the tune of $400. Honestly, I'm annoyed but not necessarily at him. I have a major lead foot and it could have been me just as easily. But the speeding premium there is a LOT and added to the 12mph he was going over the limit, that's what it was. So he asked about moving up his court date to before he had to leave and they told him to pound sand. He finally got someone there who was nice and she told him if he came in today, and paid the ticket, they'd knock $150 off of it and he had the option of writing a letter to the judge with a further possible reduction (probably not likely though).

I tried to tell him that I was stressed out about money but not mad at him and that the speeding ticket is more $$$ hitting us in a tight month and it's going to affect our insurance premiums. We had the added difficulty of him not being able to hear me very well while driving his car. But he went with his standard "you need to settle down and then we can talk about this" which just aggravates me further. I can't get two sentences out without being interrupted and then I'm told to settle down.

So I tell him that I'm getting increasingly frustrated and losing control of my emotions and I think it's better to talk again when I"m calmer. He says "you don't get to make the rules and leave me out in the cold". I tried to explain I'm only trying to control my 50% and refrain from being angry and he shoots back with an accusation that I'm trying to control the conversation and by insisting we play by my rules, he has no say. We went round on this about 2-3 times and I was getting more and more upset so I calmly said "I'm driving and this isn't safe for me. I"m hanging up the phone now" and I hung up. Immediately the phone rings again. I answer it because I don't want to escalate further and he starts to berate me for hanging up on him.

It went on like this for a while with me trying to come back to "I can only control my 50%" and him replying with "if we play by your rules, it's not fair" and me saying "I"m not asking you to play by anyone's rules but your own. But I am telling you what rules I choose to play by" which only aggravated him further.

And then he pulled out the "we've gotten along pretty well the past 3 weeks and now it's the day before I come home and we're back to this s--t". And I asked him to please not assume an 'all or nothing' status. I said if we're going to try to improve our marriage, it's going to be 2 steps forward, one step back.

We ended ok. At one point I guess we both felt we had said our piece, even if neither of us felt the other really 'got it'. Then I suggested we get back to the subject at hand, which was the ticket, so we did. And I told him that I didn't know how to approach money to him in a way that didn't spark a fight and that's why I made so many independent decisions. And he said that he feels like a worthless dog about finances, can't even get a job to support the family, etc. etc. so, 'no, there's nothing you can say or do about money that's not going to result in me feeling guilty as hell'. So I said that could be a problem because it was important to me to be able to share my fears and anxieties and to stay away from making independent decisions but I had to feel safe about coming to him. So I said that at some point in the near future, we were going to have to put our heads together and come up with a way we can talk to each other so that neither one of us walk away feeling badly.

After that the conversation took a turn for the better and it ended ok. But now I have a huge headache and stomachache and I feel as though someone just put me through the spin cycle on the washing machine. I can't do this every time we have a fight. I will choose to leave him first.

I wasn't trying to say that you did. OH, was trying to make sure she didn't get that label, which can happen anytime the word abuse is associate with someone's actions.

I certainly have had my share of AOs, and I don't like talking about it for fear of geting mislabeled. I understand where she's coming from in that regard.


I meant that her actions are not leading to more and more physical abuse...not that it never happens that way.


I feel as if my words are being twisted around. I certainly didn't say that she should attempt to bury it or hope it doesn't come up. I did not say that she should pretend it didn't happen. I did not say that she should deny it. I did not say that she should assume that it isn't bothering her husband since he isn't mentioning it.

I'm understanding that there are plenty of things to deal with, and that she doesn't have to deal with them all at the same time.....and....to be aware that your H may see the priority of issues differently then you do, and she should be open and respectful of that.


Yes, it is wrong, but we do not know if she has made amends, how much it bothers her H.


I don't feel like I can make a judgement call on that. I would imagine that if I were H, it would stick with me, it would be something I would resent and want taken seriously. I also know that I would want to use it as an excuse for my own behavior to move the blame off me, and I would be doing myself a disservice if I did so. I also think it would be my responsiblity to make it clear that it was not ok, and should not happen again.

If DH were to mention this up to OH, and she responded by saying it was no big deal, that's one thing, but I don't think she needs to turn it into an issue right now.

OH, I honestly don't know any person who's been out of a job for years who would take the initiative to do all that he can to get his fines down, and succeed. If I had done that, I would be hoping for praise from my wife, even if money was tight right now. I had made the best of a bad situation

I imagine he knows that money is stressful and he's disappointted that he can't give you a win and make it better for you. Hearing you tell him about it just brought out his defenses.

As far as "makign the rules and leaving me out in the cold", I know that feeling. I hate it when it's not resolved, I feel horrible, and I don't get to talk it out.

The fact that he said you guys have gotten along is good, right?

What he said about feeling guilty is huge I think. Not everything, but it's not defensive, and it's admitted he hasn't been pulling his weight. It's good for you to feel safe about telling him your fears, but what he just said was pretty much admitting his own fears about himself. Did you make it feel safe for him to say that?

I don't know, I know that sucked for you, but I see a lot of positives in there.

She knows the truth and is ignoring it...
...but she doesn't have ALL the facts?

MIL I suppose knows the following truths.
She knows she lay on the floor for hours, she knows her health is poor, she knows the consequences of another fall. She knows one day she might be - what - committed? Forcibly removed from her home? [A rare and extreme measure I'd have thought]

She knows it pains your H to think about her lying helpless on the floor. [OT but can't she get an alarm bracelet?]

And she chooses to stay.

As long as a psychiatrist or geriatrician hasn't pronounced her insane or demented, I strongly believe her right to choose should be *respected*.


Like this:
"You're sticking your head in the sand" is a DJ, part of an abusive and manipulative strategy by which your H is attempting to override his mother's will.

"You know you fell and lay on the floor for hours but you have decided to live alone still. You are not [clever, sensible, whatever] enough to make the right choice. I know what's best for you."

I'm not saying he's motivated by anything other than care and concern for his mother.

But that the way he's going about it is abusive.

This whole "power-over" approach has some limited use in work, child-raising and education.

But no place in a loving relationship between adults.

I admire your MIL for remaining polite through this.

This thread's not about your MIL, and I only bring it up because I want to point out that the same pattern you are trying to reject in your dealings with your H, you endorse in his dealings with his mother.

If you truly want to reject abusive strategies in dealing with your H, I think it will help you to reject them across the board.

Thank you for another perspective. You raise a great point about my not acknowledging that he did get $150 shaved off the fine. I just went right to the bottom stress line. I owe him an apology for that.

What gets me tangled up in my underwear is this boundary enforcement thing. I hate it when he interrupts me. But he says I go onandonandon and he doesn't get to get a word in. He's not completely wrong because I am guilty of overexplaining myself and repeating myself. He points it out in a hurtful manner and then I go right on the defensive. I guess since I'm the one here, I'm the one who is going to have to start turning the boat on this one. Ugh. And he's a big interrupter and I can't figure out how to communicate to him how much I hate that. I have to start all over and then--well I go on and on!

Oh, 5/6, my MIL would eat you for breakfast. You have NO idea who you are dealing with here. Trust me--she's sweet as sugar on the outside but that's where it ends. She's the queen of passive-aggressive--look up 'emotional abuse' in the dictionary and you will find her picture right there. And if you think that's a DJ--well, I'm not married to her.

If she's going to insist on staying in that house then I suppose she'd better come up with a way to pay the property taxes. Perhaps you're right and social services won't come knocking down the door (though they told H otherwise), but there might not be a door to knock down 'cause the state will seize the property. Add to the fact that she can't afford the maintenance and it's close to, if not already at, downright UNSAFE, well--you probably should ask questions before making assumptions.

Adult children deal with this all the time. Sometimes they have to make decisions for their ailing parents that don't seem to be exactly what the parent wants. But sometimes, what the parent wants, isn't in the parent's best interest either.

What's enormously selfish is that my MIL, with a bad heart, bladder cancer, a broken hip that was never properly reset and I could go on---is most likely going to wind up keeling over and dropping dead one day. And if it happens in that little house, THEN WHAT?

Also, she has no medical insurance and can not get medicaid until she sells that asset.

So you can play MB concepts with/about my MIL--but I will tell you flat out you are dead wrong on this one. Perhaps H's methods can be improved (though he did pretty da*n good--she listened to him WAY more than she listened to anyone else so far. But you can not argue with the logic here.

And it's not about money or inheritance. She gambled her retirement savings away long ago so it's not like H is looking to set her up so he can spend the dough.

just dropping in for a moment...

real quick comment: the argument over he phone that you describe reminds me of "change-back behavior" in the words of "The Dance of Anger". That type of reaction is to be expected when one party tries to change the dynamics of a relationship to something healthier. Change is scary and unsettling. Don't let it deter you from implementing healthy changes.

'You need to' is offensive! Would you ask him not to address you in this way?


Actually, you're both in agreement at this point.


I think this is where it went badly wrong. You DO get to decide whether or not to continue talking. And as gently and respectfully and lovingly as possible, with an open invitation to resume the talks, I think you should have stopped talking right then.

I know how hard this is, especially after many years of abusive conversations. The first few time I tried to terminate them, I failed, in the same way you did just then.

One partner 'hooks the other in'. This is what your H did by saying 'you don't get to...'

But you didn't need to allow him. When you're both calm - can you talk about how to deal with conversations that go wrong?

Can you TELL him you will be discontinuing them - and then - each time you detect abuse - do just that? That's your boundary.

The corollary of what Steve said, I think, is that ailing marriages need boundaries.

"Master talk consists of statements that only conceive of one reality." (Or something like that.) -Al Turtle.

Given that MIL is compos mentis, we have a *difference of opinion* on whether your MIL knows what's best for her. I'd encourage you to reconsider your premise that it's sometimes a good idea for adults to decide what's best for other adults to do, particularly loved ones.

And I refuse to be eaten for breakfast!

sigh...2 steps forward and one back OH...

maybe our H's did lunch today and forgot to tell us...lol

we had a fight today as well...but heres hope for you OH...

we actually has CLOSURE...and huggs and kisses and I loves you's instead of 2 days of the silent treatment...

I'm with you though...if I don't feel I can discuss something NOW,then please let me know this about myself and bring it to the table later...

Nope...it gets dragged out of me almost it seems on purpose so he can yell at me...ARGHHHHH

Of course the alternative is to say nothing and he gets mad anyway...

I think I need my own thread now...lol

Yes--he didn't say those exact words, but he agreed that boundaries were appropriate in (can't remember the exact word he used...it wasn't unhealthy, but it's the only word I can think of right now).

So you think I should have chosen to hang up the phone sooner than I did? And not answer it? Wouldn't that have escalated the fight?

I agree, trying to talk about it when we're both calmer is a good idea. He's not always receptive to that though.

We actually had a decent ending too. It wouldn't have been uncommon for something like this to have ended in a lot of yelling and screaming, then a few hours of silent treatment, then a grudging truce where it was never brought up again, but sat and festered.

OH, speaking as someone who, like your H, used to try to make my spouse continue a "discussion" beyond the time of his comfort level... yes, my MC told me that it was abusive on my part to force H to continue when he wanted to end the conversation.

That was difficult for me to adjust to. Of course I didn't like it that H could just walk away from a discussion about something I thought was important.

Our MC laid the ground rules ahead of time, when we were both calm and could agree to them. If H needed to take a break from a "discussion", he was to promise to come back to the discussion at some later time, no longer than 2 days hence. (He didn't always keep that promise, but you'll do much better than my DH, I'm sure!)

Also, it was *really* hard for me to just let him leave the conversation in the midst of all the adrenaline etc. It took a few incidents before I could do it gracefully, and that was with us being in MC at my choice, following the advice of a MC of my choice.

But... when H just kept on walking away, enforcing his boundary, I eventually *had* to accept it.

Keep doing it. It may help if you let him know you'll come back to finish the discussion but for now you need a break. (I've heard a suggested time of 20 minutes somewhere, but longer is also ok. My MC said it had to be less than 2 days though.)

Even if he says things like "That isn't fair!" and "Why do you get to set the rules!" if you just keep on setting just the rules for yourself, boundaries, not telling him to do anything but being firm about what you will do... when he is calmer he may start to get it.

Thanks Jayne. I get discouraged so easily. I was spouting my best MB speak today and I kept asking myself "why isn't he responding in kind? He's supposed to say XYZ when I say ABC!"

Yes. Actually, thinking about it, you could even have ended it a little sooner than I suggested before.

H took offence at your stress over money (granted you didn't intend any offence).

He said "you need to settle down and then we can talk about this"

This is a good idea ("let's talk about this later") clumsily wrapped in a DJ (him asserting that he knows what you need to do).

At that point, you could have said OK, let's talk later.

Instead, and understandably, you were hurt by his DJ, and YOU called time-out. So you had an ugly fight about who gets to call timeout.

The conversation was toxic after that.

So what do you do with your spouse's abuse?

My W was forever telling me what I need to do. I've asked her not to do this but she still does sometimes.

Harley talks about how to handle this. One way is to say "I don't like the way you said that, but... [yes, let's talk later.]"

Another (not sure where I read this) is to translate your spouse's comments. "Oh. You think I'm upset and don't want to talk about this now? OK darling."

How about that? Take the DJ / SD and give the comment back to him in the way you'd like to have been addressed.

Then address the content of what he said.

Him calling you back is the phone-equivalent of following you from room to room. Only easier to deal with. Yes, don't answer it.

I suggest you plan what to do in that event of him following you - and notify him in advance.

"I will leave the room in x situations. If you follow me I will go outside. If you follow me I will leave the property."

Maybe wait until he actually does that. Then leave the room/house/property. Then later, when calm, state your boundary as above.

Can you talk to H about the groundrules for negotiation? I gather he's not an MB fan, but can you propose the MB groundrules in your words?

Not in my experience. The opposite. Everything that followed "you need to" was poison to your M.

I've found that resuming the conversation later is MUCH better. You can even say things like "I felt angry when you ..." - and as long as you yourself are calm and respectful when you say it, it's well received. YMMV.


BTW - I'm sensing, and heartened by this, that your H really does want to provide for his family.

It wouldn't escalate the fight because it shows him you know how NOT to escalate a fight, and if he wants to have a useful conversation, he'll have to abide with the same level of respect that you are according him.

Like ears said, this is explained in The Dance of Anger. You're changing, it scares him because it's not the same ritual (way you argue) he's used to. So he takes it to mean any number of things: you've already decided to leave him, you're thumbing your nose at him, you're acting out, etc.

According to The Dance of Anger, if you start learning how to behave better, you have to reassure the other person that it doesn't mean they 'lose' - in fact, if you reassure them you love them and are doing it to better the relationship, they can learn to feel safer in the new way. But you have to do the reassuring, first. 'Hon, I know you're used to us arguing the same way as we used to, but I'd rather have a better conversation than that, since it never got us anywhere but resentful. So I'm trying to use the new things I've learned on how to work through issues respectfully. I promise I have every intention of working this out; I just don't want to do it while we're both upset.'

Just dropping ijn for moral support:
Well done OH for knowing when to stop and for getting the MB way in even when you were really feeling the pressure.

I think I need to take a lead from your example and learn from the advice you've been given too.

I know when I need to walk away but get very much the same response as you did. Keep us posted on how you get on with this strategy.

ST

Thank you 5/6, Cat and ST. I really appreciate it.

5/6--it's so much easier to read about what I *should* have done, after the fact. What's really tough for me is to apply it in the heat of the moment. What happens to me now is that I realize what's going on--and I start to think about how to handle it in a positive, MB way, but I can't remember everything, so I end up doing it half a$$ed--like yesterday. That's going to make it worse and send out mixed signals, won't it? ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He says things like "you need to...." a LOT. So I'm going to have to mentally rehearse this one... a LOT! He also says things like "you don't get to...." and "I'm not going to stand for...."

I can't remember the exact phrase from yesterday but I told him that I got upset, anxious and angry when he begins his sentences with "you...." So he said "ok, how's this then...I think you...."

LOL

I tried to tell him that I've learned it's really the same disrespectful thought and then I said---"I know there's a better way to say something like that and I'm working on figuring out what it is and developing the habit of using that phrase. Will you try, along with me?"

He sort of grudgingly agreed--I think.

The other thing he did that really hurt and got me angry is to wrap up this fight in a "you always..." or "here we go again" motif. He mentioned we'd been getting along well for almost 3 weeks and now here we are back to where we started, "back to the same old sh*t" was his exact phrase. I tried to tell him I thought we were making progress --2 steps forward, 1 step back. I don't know if he agreed with me. I hope so.