The next time he does this, just calmly (and sweetly) say

"The words you are using are meant to manipulate me into feeling guilt. I do not feel guilty about trying to save our marriage."

Wow, I'm going to print this one out, blow it up and paste it up on the wall. PERFECT!

H said something interesting in the course of our argument-turned-discussion yesterday. He said that he'd spent most of the three weeks being the one to call/get in touch with me. That's pretty true but I didn't have any response to it because I wasn't sure what to say. I probably did the right thing by not saying anything. I purposely did not reach out to contact him. I felt I'd really put all of myself into that letter and that follow up email.

Hi OH, this was something that I worked on for quite some time. This is the bookmark I refer to when someone talks to me at work in a way that I'm left wondering, "What just happened?"

http://al.turtlecounseling.com/blog/_archives/2005/3/12/427218.html

It really helps in the parenting and at work, too. How to respond with grace to folks who are convinced that "you need to" or that they are the Arbiters of Truth.

OH, this is where the concept of being patient with yourself comes in. I believe I mentioned that in one of the many posts in this thread. Love yourself, and be patient with yourself. Differentiation is hard to initiate and follow through on. Look at what's happening here from the perspective of what we've discussed with respect to Schnarch's materials. What happens when one spouse attempts to start to better differentiate? The other spouse naturally resists right? So, we should expect resistance as part of the process. Even you will at times resist change, because that's what we naturally tend to do. Think glass half full. Look back on the argument/conversation and find what you did right not just what you did wrong. Give yourself credit for what you did right. Build yourself self up on the inside. Make a conscious effort to ask yourself those two questions. First, ask yourself what you did right. Build yourself up first. Then, ask yourself what you did wrong and how can you improve or do differently the next time around? Don't take on too much at one time. Pick one item that you did wrong and commit to handling it differently the next time around. One thing at a time. Don't be surprised if your H wants to stay emotionally fused and if he resists changes in how you interact. We tend to stick with patterns of behavior even if those patterns of behavior aren't good for us, because at least they are familiar and we like what feels familiar - in an odd way even bad behaviors are comforting to us - there is some kind of emotional payoff in the bad behaviors - most likely a short term payoff that short circuits becoming healthy in the long term - win the battle lose the war type stuff. So, change your expectations - expect your H to behave badly - and then you'll be better prepared to withstand it when he does - and if he doesn't, then you'll be politely surprised - and you'll be more apt to praise him when he behaves well. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

It might be good for the two of you to practice some conversational mirroring for a little while it he's open to it - or at the very least - you start practicing it when interacting with him to help you to better understand what he's saying. A lot of what we say during the course of interation is easily misinterpreted by our spouses. Mirroring back what you hear from your spouse helps to clarify to your spouse what was said, and it also communicates that you are listening and that you care.

It may be important, in your case especially I believe, for you to model good behavior but don't talk about the concepts with him given he has expressed a desire not to learn more about counseling and/or relationship building tools. So, as you said, since you are here and he is not. Chances are, the more you attempt to bring up any concepts, the more resistant he may become - because he may feel threatened and insecure and may interpret everything you're attempting to do as some kind of control over him and his behaviors. I'd probably keep quiet about the concepts and so forth until and unless he actually comes to you and asks for you to share.


Perhaps you could try and communicate to him that until the underlying problems are agreed upon and until you two can agree on a path forward to attempt to resolve the problems in question, that in fact we never left where we started. Problems don't just go away on their own in life - we can't ignore them. If we do, we can practice avoidance, and learn to dance around them for a while, but the same problems will come up over and over again - escalating in severity over time - until the two of you decide to change something. It's like Einstein's definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting a different result. Are you two doing anything differently? If not, then how can either of you expect a different result? This type of logic may or may not work with him, just putting some ideas out there for your consumption.

I'd submit that one response to his retorts about you attempting to control the conversation by withdrawing - are in fact attempts to control yourself. It doesn't really have anything to do with him - it has to do with learning to request a timeout. Some couples utilize certain catch words or hand gestures to signal the need for a timeout - that if we go further this is going to go downhill - let me have some personal space to collect my thoughts and cool down and I promise we'll revisit this in a little bit. Don't know if he'd be amenable to these types of suggestions though.

With respect to your complaint that he interrupts you, this trait also annoys me. There are two primary modes of communicators, didactic and interactive communicators. Didactic communicators tend to be more orderly - you speak - I listen - then I speak while you listen, and back and forth we go. Then there are interactive communicators - where the conversation style is much more, well, interactive. People with this style don't see any problem interrupting someone else mid-sentence. Whoever talks the loudest wins. My wife comes from a family like this - when they all get together at the dinner table I can't even keep up with all of the conversations going on at one time. Drives me crazy - but that's the way they are. It's not so much whether it's right or wrong but rather it's just a different style of communication. Unfortunately, most of the counseling practices tend to assume that didactic communication is required in order for communication to be productive and healthy. For someone with an interactive communication style - this can actually come across as a DJ because the person is left feeling as though the way they communicate is "bad" whereas the way they're being told to communicate is "good" or "better". It is in reality a matter of opinion - neither method has proven superior to the other in reality. Having this understanding has helped me to learn how to better communicate with my W - who is an interactive communicator.

This is where I messed up yesterday (one of the places where I messed up....). I felt my anger rising and I told him that I was getting angry and wanted to take this up when I was calmer. I didn't mention his anger (though he was angry) because I'm really trying to stay focused on me/my reactions for now. And his response was "you don't get to be in control here" (yes, a huge DJ). How should I respond to that? I replied that I was only trying to be in control of myself and take control of the one thing that I could control--my reactions. And that I felt my anger getting away from me and the best way for ME to control MY anger was to step back. Then I said "so I'm going to hang up the phone now" And he said no you're not. And I said "I'm driving and trying to drive and be this angry is dangerous for me. Goodbye." And I hung up the phone. About 2 minutes later he called back. I shouldn't have answered but I did. And then he launched into me for being controlling/controlling the conversation by hanging up. I again told him that I was very focused on MY reactions and the things in MY control and that I would stay on the phone this time if we could calmly resolve this.

It wasn't exactly calm and he did interrupt me several times (ironically, he HATES when I interrupt him--and often I will start talking after I believe he's done--the sentence ends and there's a long pause, but as soon as I start talking he will say "I wasn't done and you obviously weren't listening to a thing I said because you've already formulated your reply".

And I have no idea how to respond to THAT either. In my mind, it's a projection of what he does to me.

As far as conversation styles, I would say, given my family, that I'm more interactive. I can easily have multiple conversations going and it's often set H off if he's talking and I answer a question from one of the kids, or I am putting groceries away or anything except focusing on him 150%.

I am serious when I say that this has to change or I can not stay in this marriage. It eats me up inside. I am trying to change me and my responses but if he won't respond in kind, I can't keep it up forever.

DH arrives in about 1.5 hours. Just for grins, I tracked his flight on flighttracker.com Wow, he's over Chicago already!

Time to shower up and head on out.

"It wasn't exactly calm and he did interrupt me several times (ironically, he HATES when I interrupt him--and often I will start talking after I believe he's done--the sentence ends and there's a long pause, but as soon as I start talking he will say "I wasn't done and you obviously weren't listening to a thing I said because you've already formulated your reply".

And I have no idea how to respond to THAT either. In my mind, it's a projection of what he does to me."

Well...I can think of a few things...

"I'm listening." If he is done, he'll tell you.
"So, what you're saying is [insert validating sentence - for example 'you're upset about me not calling?'] Do I have that right?"

"Yes."

"I apologize if your feelings were hurt. I was trying to give both of us some space and felt that the letter pretty much encompassed how I felt. It wasn't because I don't care. I do."

Mirror what he has said in a paraphrased way, for two reasons: To make sure you understand what he was trying to say and to make him feel as though you were listening.

Another option is that you can come up with an object in the house (peace pipe sort of thing) where whoever is holding it is the only one who is allowed to speak. Of course then you might have to deal with him hiding it on you as an April Fool's joke, and that just wouldn't work well.

Good luck!!!!!! *hugs*

I think it's great that you're having a conversation about communication, because with abuse, the communication is the biggest issue, far bigger than whatever issue you're communicating about.

My suggestion, if he's willing, is an agreement as follows "You tell me about you, I'll tell you about me."

So when he says "I think you [don't listen to me]", slyly disguising a DJ as an 'I' statement - he'd still be in breach.

He ought to tell you about HIM "I feel hurt / unimportant / when you 'put me on hold' when we're talking, to talk to the kids"


Yeah... nasty. Contains an implicit DJ "..and that's so very wrong of you".

Yuck. Would you and he agree never to use sweeping statements? Can you and he have a calm converation or conversations about these types of statements and agree to abandon them?

OK, helmet on OH...

"H feels upset when I exercise my gift of multiple conversations, which he clearly lacks. His feelings are wrong."
"H wants all my attention and then some or he gets upset. That's wrong of him."
"This is unacceptable to me. His feelings will have to change. I mean it."[I'm not sure actually what exactly you wanted to change so might have done you a disservice here]

H's feelings are for you to care for, not for you to judge. When he is 'set off', he is giving you valuable information about his feelings, albeit wrapped in an AO.

Your H does not agree with your decision to 'put him on hold' while the kids ask you a question. Isn't this putting the kids ahead of the marriage?

Let's say you and H decided to POJA "what we do when we're talking and the kids INTERRUPT." The outcome might well be that unless it's a clear emergency, the kids wait until the adults stop talking before they ask their question.

My W did what you do, and I felt unloved because of it. Part of a pattern of disrespect I'd foolishly allowed.

She thought my feelings were wrong. NOW we are teaching the kids to wait - "don't interrupt". If necessary, a child that won't stop interrupting is removed from the room so our conversation (W and I) can be completed.

The child is learning what I think are important life lessons. Mum and Dad's conversations are important to them. I don't interrupt people when they're talking - I wait my turn.

Hope it's going well for you with H back.

5/6--In my defense...(LOL) I am better about making the kids wait. If H and I are talking directly (I'm not involved in another activity like making dinner, etc. and I am focused on him), I don't let the kids interrupt. I used to be terrible about it and now I think, in this one type of instance, I'm consistently very good. Of course, if it's an emergency--like when my daughter passed out in the bathroom and H and I were having a direct conversation---all rules go out the window. But he understands that as well. In fact, he got to the bathroom before I did!

Where I'm not as good--and it's because I do have an interactive conversation style (H says he can't STAND having dinner with my side of the family because the 17 conversations going on at once give him a headache), is when I am already doing something else such as putting groceries away, etc., and he starts talking to me. Do I stop what I'm doing? I'd rather not--I want to get that specific chore done. So I try to answer him while I'm doing whatever it is. If it's a quick question such as "where's my ....", it's not a problem. But if it's a longer type conversation then I continue what I'm doing. He sometimes gets angry because he doesn't have my attention. I've learned to say
"I'd like to finish XYZ. I can talk to you while I'm doing it or I can talk to you while I'm done. Which would you prefer?" It helps to throw the decision back on him. That way if he chooses to keep talking while I'm doing whatever, it's his decision. I'm not always that consistent or quick-thinking enough to say that up front though and it's been known to cause problems.

Sometimes I get exasperated because I think--it shouldn't have to be this difficult! LOL

ETA: I shouted out for you on SeekingWife's thread. Where are you?

So how did the reunion go? Any talk yet?

So I picked him up at the airport yesterday afternoon. Flight was right on time; airline took over an HOUR to get the luggage out to baggage claim. Grrrr.... The cops made me drive around about 3-4 times. And I thought I was going to be late. I was sitting in traffic on the expressway in and the landing pattern was right overhead. I actually saw his plane fly right over me.

Anyway, in the 'fake it 'til you make it' category, when he finally came out with his luggage (did I mention how annoyed I was with the inept bag claim people? LOL), I got out of the car and gave him a HUGE hug and a big passionate kiss. He hugged and kissed me back and, knowing I'd had to drive around several times because we kept talking back and forth on our cell phones, he looked up at the cop and said something like "no officer, she's NOT rushing the welcome home so we can drive out of here". Of course the cop couldn't hear this but I could and it was very sweet.

So last night went smoothly. The kids were happy to see him. He sat and talked with them and played Tribond with the youngest. TV didn't go on until after dinner. I only saw him drink one glass of wine. We had some snuggle time on the couch and continued that to the bedroom. He actually slept straight through the night and this is HUGE, because it's been well over a year--maybe more---since I've seen him get more than 3-4 hours of sleep at a stretch. I think the stress and depression just completely messed up his ability to sleep and that of course feeds into more stress and depression. The sleep issue most likely isn't resolved permanently of course, but he did manage to sleep pretty well while he was gone. He said he got at least 6 hours at a stretch most nights--sometimes even 7 or 8. Being away from here probably had something to do with that. Anyway, he's still asleep now because Oregon is three hours behind the East Coast and I'm sure there's a bit of jet lag going on.

ETA: So no, no talk yet. I know we do have to directly address the issues but I didn't want to do it the same day he came home.

Yay! Good luck!

Sounds like he is really glad to be home, so that is good right?

Well, if I were him and life here at home was the sh*tpile that it is (no job, financial pressures, not getting along with wife and so on), I wouldn't exactly be glad to be home, but I think that the three weeks away did help him mentally so perhaps he can tackle his own demons here with a fresh outlook.

OH, I'm really relieved that it's so far, so good. I want you to really feel confident when your H wakes up and the kids come home from school, that you all have a calm routine, no expectations on him for the moment. I don't know if this appplies to you or not, but he may "need" a drink, really really bad, and trying to cut back for your sake, not his sake yet. I encourage you to have a ton of compassion for him, like someone giving up cigarettes. Only worse, because the person giving up cigarettes has chosen themselves to do this, not because of outside pressure. And worse, because his brain may still be asking for more. I know tht you're assuming the drinking is solely due to lifestyle issues, and I pray that you are right about that. But just in case it is not, in case there is a physical component, please focus on viewing him with compassion for this compulsion. Don't glare at him when he takes a drink, or another, and another, and another, it just feeds that shame-blameshift cycle between you two. If he does this, he's not doing this TO YOU. It's not about you. If you feel badly, come here with it, get calm first, so you can really think through your O&H and share with him from a non-DJing perspective.

I pray that none of that was relevant for you, just a backup plan that you would never need to pull out. I pray that this is simply lifestyle issues, and now that you have the home running smoothly again, now that you took the first step in love, and you both are taking steps, that your home will be such a pleasure to be in that your love for one another will bloom

Honestly, Ears, I think he only had one (he might possibly have had more--I wasn't paying close attention last night) was more a result of his being tired, the evening being busy, etc., than any desire to meet something I'd outlined in that letter. That sounds like a DJ and it isn't meant to be. I'm just trying to be realistic in that I don't think we're going to discuss the terms of my letter unless I initiate it and I'm dreading doing that so of course, I"m looking for any excuse to stick my head in the sand right now and the 'he just came home' excuse is as handy as any.

I know he'd had at least one drink (most likely more) on the plane--I could smell it when I kissed him yesterday.

...on a LOT of things, but I'll keep it simple for now.

First:

This morning, I was on my computer and H was on his laptop in the same room (usually he sets himself up in a different room or I work from the desktop in the media room downstairs). My laptop kept freezing and I was getting frustrated. ARGH. URGH. AHHH. And other similar type grunts were emanating from me.

So H says in what I perceived to be an irritated tone because he raised his voice "What's wrong with you?"

I told him that my computer was freezing.

"Well you need to dump some stuff off of there...." (there's that 'you need to' again...)

I asked him not to yell at me.

He said I was hurting his ears.

I tried to tell him later that it was frustrating for me and I didn't have another way of voicing it and he cut me short and said "just forget about it, ok? It's over and done with".

When he says stuff like that to me, I wind up feeling really resentful and frustrated. If I keep going, I'm nagging. If I don't clear it up, I seethe. What do I do?

And secondly, the 64 million dollar question:

How/where/when do I bring up the issues I raised in my letter? I am glad H acknowledged the huge piece of me I put into that letter but I feel if I don't approach this again, he's going to try to let sleeping dogs lie.

To be honest, I already feel my stress level creeping up a bit since he's been home. Even this afternoon--DS14 had LAX practice. H said he'd take him. LAX starts at 3:15 and DS took the bus home from school since the LAX fields aren't at the highschool. At 3:20, H wasn't home from the dump yet (yup, we saved up all our garbage and recycle for three weeks...LOL). So DS14 calls him and he tells me that "Dad is at the light in the center of town and wants to change his clothes when he gets home." So I call and say "hey if you're hung up, I'll drive him." And he gets aggravated. "I'm coming down the street now." He did arrive a minute or so later and didn't run into change his clothes so this might have been a case of me jumping the gun and falling prey to DS14's stress level.

But mine is still creeping up there.

I got nothing.

I know your stress is going up, but these sound like pretty normal irritations. My husband uses the words "you need to" when I voice a problem because he's in problem-solving mode. Its not meant as an insult, but trying to help.

I didn't realize that your husband's home state was Oregon. Might explain a few thing...we Oregonians can be mighty stubborn (joke).

You might want to give him until tomorrow and then have your big talk.