Thank you so much everyone.

I'm absorbing.

I had a hard night two weekends ago that I haven't shared here and thought I could gloss over until this moment. (I've missed you, Jim.)

I need to give it some thought. I need to give it all some thought.

I'll be back with a lengthy monologue. You know it.

Happy Palm Sunday.

Peace.

L4,

H and I have been reading thru Lovebusters. While HNHN is very helpful, LB's seems to be getting us farther ahead at this point. It's the pie and HNHN is the ice cream, if you what I mean. Certain chapters just seem to hit the nail right smack on the head. We have been addressing issues and topics that have never been talked about ... rationally anyway.

I don't know if you have LB's, since SAA and HNHN are the two books always recommended here. Just a thought.

I wish there was someway your H would be willing for you to read out loud to him and vice versa. In time ???

A mutual GF was over last night, we had few drinks, yes really only 3 and weak at that. I've drank in the past months since D-Day, but it's not brought out feelings of bitterness.
Anyway, after GF left H and I were talking and it led to discussing a past IB decision. I started making DJ's every which way, I even made a remark about the A. Honestly, I've been very, very good with no LBing, H would testify to this, he has told me.
I immediately felt bad seeing the look on his face but still did not apologize, I was mad but not sorry. I have no idea where that came from.

So what is my point right? We are 8 months since D-Day, absolutely in better shape than 8 months ago, but still so much farther to go.
All in good time. I love him so much, but last night I just didn't like him.

Take care

What the heck were you doing up so late last night ??

Me either-just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you.

Good idea. I'll place the order.

Thank you.

I've started new meds and am supposed to take them in the morning because they give me "energy". I had forgotten and took them at about 7pm instead. I don't sleep well anyway and was especially awake last Saturday. I set up the camping cots in the living room for the kids and they did a "sleep-over" there. It was all very exciting and they were up until midnight, watching Jesus Christ Superstar.

Thanks, JT. Hope you're enjoying the weather. (Remember the sunblock.)

Me too.

Actually, I can be very patient. It depends on the situation. Where I lose patience is when a solution is present and someone can’t get off the pot. If the delay is because no solution is available or several options are still viable, I’m good hanging out and waiting. I’m frustrated with H in that there are so many avenues and people wanting to help – experts and well-meaning loved ones. And he refuses any assistance. That is when my patience gets tried and tested.

But the stubborn thing… Yes. That’s in me.

Two weekends ago... On the way home from my parents, H told me about being upset about something I did – interjecting in a discussion that should have been between H and my sis. I could sense my sis was uncomfortable and I spoke for her. And I shouldn’t have. H was telling me this, in the car with our kids. And he was getting more and more upset. I wasn’t excusing what I did, but I was trying to explain it. H kept interrupting me. I understood what H was saying and was attempting to reflect that back to him. At one point I said, “Please, H. Please do not interrupt me. Can you please give me just 2 minutes of quiet and listen to me? Please respect what I have to say and let me speak without interrupting me. And if you do, I’m done.” I wasn’t 30 seconds into saying what I had been wanting to say, and H interrupted me. I said, “I’m done,” and was quiet the rest of the way home.

Finally, while getting ready for bed, I told H how hurt I was that even when I clearly stated my need -- for him to let me talk -- he still wouldn’t let me. I was trying to tell him that I agreed with why he was upset with me and I was trying to apologize. Again, he interrupted me. It just kept on and on. I went to bed thinking, “He says he respects me in my education, career, mothering skills, and how I treat others. Yet his actions don’t show respect for me as his wife." This isn’t new post-affair. This is how it’s been for so long. While other things have changed, this behavior hasn’t. Conversation is so important to me. Yet when it comes to things where we even remotely disagree, I can’t get a word in. He talks over me. He dismisses my input/explanation/feelings.

It’s something he continues to do that either angers me, or disheartens me to where I feel defeated and like I want nothing to do with H in that moment. And I don’t know how to fix this. I’ve told him. I’ve lashed out at him. I’ve walked away. I’ve waited for silence then tried to calmly explain to him my frustration. And it returns. Again. And again. And again.

Quoting you, Jim: "Your mistakes and his need to be in the PAST and stay there. What matters is today and tommorow. You must break yourself and your husband free from the past or you will contaminate each brand new day forever with the old."

I agree 100%. That’s how I am living. And a few weeks ago I tried to encourage H that we both live in the now – in a new M. I tried to get H to see that we can’t change the past and I want to instead look at what we’ve both done to be better partners and better parents over the very recent past – to look and live as who we are today. It was H who has said he can’t get beyond the past. H is the one who said he can’t move on, that he’s fixated on when I was betraying him. That despite all the changes I’ve made, he can’t get beyond what I’ve done.

I do have the guts to mean it. I’ll look for a laminating machine if that’s all it takes. Because I’ve run out of other ideas.

Saturday night I started crying at 1 in the morning for no reason that I could target, other than I know H is still hurting and I can’t believe I’ve done this. What I was doing a year ago seems so foreign, and yet it dominates my H’s day every day, or so he's told me. And it’s never far from my brain. I’m thinking of what I can do for H to make sure he knows he’s important to me – from offering to make him lunch to talking him through a crappy conference call. From smiling at him to whispering in his ear. Asking his opinion on a work matter and calling him when I'm running errands...

The kisses have stopped. I love kissing. One of our most memorable fights before the A was when I was telling H I needed kisses “just because” and especially during SF and he brushed off my desires for kisses as ridiculous. After my confession, the kisses came with a vengeance. And that was good. About a month ago, we were involved, and H wasn’t kissing me. I tried to lead him and he didn’t respond. I resorted to asking him to kiss me and he avoided it, not kissing me anywhere. And you know what, they haven’t come back. So we’re back to no kisses. I’ve told him I want them. I see them as part of AF and also SF in terms of foreplay. But to no avail.

I have no intention of living in the past. I believe today can be a new day, and I am doing my darndest to live in a new marriage. It’s when H says he can’t get beyond the past and when a few of his bad habits re-appear that I'm taken back.

I've tried talking with H.

Tell me what I can do.

What you can do, L4, is keep doing what you've been doing, and more if necessary. How long? You know the answer - for as long as it takes.

Obviously, your H hasn't forgiven you completely. You think you've done enough for him to get over this and forgive you. But that's not for you to decide. It's between H and God. Forgiveness has to be on H's timetable. You can't force it, demand it or make it happen.

It's only been 5 months, for goodness sake. As you well understand and have confessed, you tore his world apart with your own hands, betrayed him in a way that rips the heart and soul out of a man, humiliated him, emasculated him, destroyed him, crushed him. You kissed and had sex with another man. Your lips have been with another in God only knows what ways, and you want H to kiss those lips and not think about all of that? After only 5 months? He is likely to have trouble getting that out of his mind in 5 years. Are you prepared to stay the course that long?

Yes, you are forgiven by God, because you have confessed your sin to Him and repented. And if you are a follower of Jesus, you are covered by His righteousness. You are right in God's sight.

However, that is a separate issue altogether from reconciling with your husband and restoring your marriage. He needs as much time as he needs to get through this, to forgive you and to get to a place where he can kiss you without thinking of you naked in another man's arms.

I don't mean to rub your face in it, L4. I'm sorry if this is harsh and reopens wounds. As I've said, you are my MB poster child for how a WW should show remorse and do all you can to restore and rebuild a marriage after infidelity. If your marriage isn't restored, I don't believe it will be because you didn't do your part.

But I also believe what I said needed to be said for the sake of your H and all BS's out there.

L4:

You have a long way to go.

Do you want to know something that will get you there faster?

Let me parse this paragraph:


I'll start with your problem, right here:


Stop interrupting HIM. He has the problem. LET HIM Speak. Let him say what he wants to say. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. LET HIM SPEAK.

When he's DONE, then you can speak.

BUT THE CHILDREN....
BUT HE WAS GETTING...
BUT, BUT, BUT!!!

NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

You disrepect him by having an affair, then you cut him off in front of his sister.

And when he talks to YOU about it in the car, all YOU can talk about is how he DIDN'T LISTEN TO YOU. SO WHAT.

You never let him finish. HE never got to say, or maybe he doesn't know how to say: "You made me look bad in front of my sister and everyone else" And every time you interruppted HIM, it was with a "But, I" statement.

How about a simple: "Husband, I'm sorry I disrespected you in front of your family. It is one of those behaviors I am trying to change. I never realized that my defending others against you was so hurtful to our relationship. I am sorry. I said what I said before I thought about it."

Write it down. And give it to him.

The conversation in the car? I don't care about what you thought. Because you posted enough to me to know that your defending your own actions. MANY Husbands never feel that they get the chance to actually state thier side of the story. Lord knows how many times Flamingo destroyed my arguements before I EVER felt that I had my side of the story out. Try that. Let him speak. Don't defend, interrupt or offer your POV. Let him SAY what he has to say. That is Radical Honesty. YOU may not like what he has to say. But he HAS to say it. It HAS to get out there. So that it can be dealt with.

Rewind that car conversation in your head, What if you had just let him have his say? Then when he was done, said my statement I posted above?

I don't need to address the rest of the paragraph, because it was just you asking him to give you what you didn't him. Can you see that?

As an aside, the kissing will come...

L4, I'm being rather harsh. I think you have come a long way. But you gave hints about this evening in your other posts. And this is what happened? So much was wrong on your part. And this entire post is about what your H isn't doing? Sorry. That is why it seems harsh.

(((L4)))

LG

I know this. Where I get a little nuts is when I don't see effort from him to process. Him being with me still may be all the effort he can muster. And I recognize that that alone is HUGE. Many wouldn't even do that. It's hard because I'm a do-er and when there is a problem I go after options and potential solutions when they are presented. It's difficult sitting here watching him deal with this his way because there are so many proven other ways that he's not open to. It's not the five months. Well it is, but it's more that I dont see him "doing" anything to process this. It's not fair, because he may be, just not in an obvious way. My head knows I have to let him do as he needs. My heart wants to grab him by the shoulders and say, "Why don't you do something to get through this?! Please tell me how I can help you?!"

Please rub away. I see it as holding a mirror up for me to look into. And you can't open the wounds any more than they are. They haven't closed.

And I appreciate it. Please keep talking to me on behalf of all the BSs, ottert.

Hi L4

What an amazing day in the PNW (and about time-don't you think?)
I think that you don't see any effort from your DH because some men (lots of men) don't show their emotionally processing to anyone, let alone their wives. I don't know if it's cultural, a "guy-thing" or what, but they don't process like we do, especially about deep, emotional hurts. Keep praying for him to feel safe enough with you to let you know how he feels.

And about what LG said...something I heard from an older woman at church once came to mind. It was in reference to women using our words to overwhelm our H's for whatever reasons. It was simply this:

"Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?"

Hope this helps-

I'll be thinking of you as the tulips finally bloom!

I should have been clear. I did, LG. I nearly always do. Because interupting people is a huge pet peeve for me, I am extra consciencious about interupting people myself. I'm not perfect and in the heat of the moment, I may start too soon but I really try to hold my toungue until the person is done. My H talked for probably 20 of the 30 minutes it took for us to get home. He talked most of the time. I would try to get my say when he was quiet. I'd start talking, then he'd jump in.

I know I did. In the worst way.

What I did was wrong, but I didn't interupt him. He had asked her a question and I knew the answer which I believed he wasn't going to like. My sister HATES confrontation so I answered for her in order to soften the blow of the answer. And I shouldn't have. I should have made her handle it herself since he had asked her.

He actually did, LG. He told me how he felt. He explained his position and why. Over and over. And over. He beat me over the head with how upset he was with me.

No it wasn't. What I was trying to say is that the reason why I did what I did is because Sis doesn't like conflict and I've used that as an excuse to stick my nose where it doesn't belong -- doing it on her behalf. I have done this most of her life. And it's not my place. I was trying to apologize and I don't apologize with BUTs. I know how a "but" completely negates an apology and I don't do it. In my quote that you grabbed, there was one but.

What I was trying to do was explain to H that I realized what he was saying. And looking back at our years together, I realize I've done this a lot for my younger sister, especially with him. I think that unintentionally, H intimidates Sis because he doesn't mind confrontation while she runs from it. And it's wrong.

I was trying to talk with H about my behavior and how he had opened my eyes to something big that night. Then H broadened the conversation and said that I "always pick" my family over H. I asked him, "Since MC last fall when you pointed this out to me and the counselor helped explain it to me, when have I picked my family over you? Yes, tonight, I spoke inappropriately for my sister, and I'm sorry for that. When you say I always pick my family, please give me an example of when I have done that in the last 6 months." H couldn't. He was quiet. Then he jumped back in about how I "never back him up" even though he couldn't give me a recent example. Because he couldn't answer me on that question, I think he recognizes that I've changed and I'm trying. But he won't give me credit for something when it ruins his argument.

Am I making any sense? I promise I wasn't trying to brush off my apology. It took me a while to fully empathize with H and when I had, I couldn't get a word in edgewise to tell him. I had come to a clear realization and I was trying to talk it through with him, trying to explain why I did what I did and why I can see now how it was wrong. We had a fresh example before us and I was trying to explain my actions so I/we could figure out why I did it. And I apologized too.

I was finally able to say something like this, though you said it better, LG. H's response was, "Thank you."

When we were getting ready for bed, H asked if I was going to talk to him that evening. I waited a few minutes, then I said, "I feel disresepected when you intrupt me. While we were driving home, I specifically asked you not to interupt me and you did. I've told you before how I feel..." And he interupted me. I tried two more times to explain to him how I feel when he does that and what I expect from him when I'm talking. I went to bed feeling it's a lost cause.

I believe my H is the exception then. I let him talk. I encourage him to.

I completely agree. I encourage H to say it and to get it out there so we can deal with whatever it is. So when he does decide to speak up, I try to keep my lips zipped until he's done.

Do you ever have conversations with people and you feel like when you're talking they're thinking about what they want to say next instead of listening to what you're saying? I feel my H does that especially when we're having a disagreement.

I did let him have his say. Where I messed up was I should have started with the apology then explained why I thought I did what I did and asked what is it about me that thinks I need to speak for my 39-year-old sister? Or perhaps just said nothing at all. Perhaps I should have let it all be about him as you said.

I don't need it served with a silver spoon.

It's not harsh. Keep it coming. I've cowgirled up, remember?

Where I likely failed in my post is in explaining that the evening was eye-opening to me in a sad way, that H's behavior of interupting me continues. I don't know if it's about control, just the way he is, anger, disrespect... That night as I went to sleep and since then, I pegged it as disrespect. I know he doesn't respect me because of the A. And this is understandable. But in this case, this bahavior I don't believe to be because of the A because it has been going on for years. Ask anyone who has spent time around us. In the past when he has done it, I would end up apologizing to get it over with, even if I wasn't sorry. Or I'd shut-up or he'd stomp off out of the room. Since I started IC last spring, I began feeling stronger about speaking up for myself about how his interuptions make me feel. And yet it continues.

I have yet to accept it. Maybe I need to.

Gracias.

Indeed!

I will.

Depends on the day. And I am so kidding.

I spent many summers working in those fields. I still have dirt under my fingernails. It was always nice to see the results come spring.

Sweet dreams, JT

I have heard this:


a few times. What does it mean?

PNW stands for the Pacific Northwest region of the U.S. That's Washington, Idaho, and Oregon. Sometimes folks throw in Canada's British Columbia when feeling international.

ottert and LG... You both used the word "harsh" to describe how I might have interpretted your posts. After some of the stuff I've been reading on MB today... I'll take your "harsh"ness anytime. Not only because I need it, but also because you throw it at me slowpitch so I can clearly see what's coming. You send it right down the middle, no curveballs, no vasaline on the ball, and not at my head. Well, not every time, anyway.

Thank you both (and everyone else) for showing no agenda here other than wanting the best for my H and my M.

thanx for that L4.

What you doing up so late, it must be about 2am. You mix up you meds agsin?

H didn't have to come up with a recent example, you two were just discussing one!
Every time one of you does something that was annoying/hurtful/disrespectful that was happening in the old M, no matter how long it's been since it occurred, those past feelings come back. This makes the person believe that nothing has changed, even though it may not be happening as often.
Thus ... a power struggle. BTDT a lot.
My H used to apologize all the time, but then just repeat the action, then apologize, the cycle went on and on. This doesn't leave much worth in an apology.

I chuckled quite a bit reading this whole post of yours re. LG comments, not out of disrespect, but because I recognized these conversations in my own M.
Honestly, I like being right, LOL, but I realize that I am, only in my mind, and my H feels the same in his. The hardest thing to do is appreciate my H thinking when I don't agree with it. I am incredibly stubborn.

I have to comment on Ottert's post. It was so well said, and yet only hits the tip of the hurt and devastation.
L4, I know if you could crawl into our skin to feel it, to have true empathy for your H, you would. But it is impossible for you to do that. No one or no words can make someone feel this pain unless they have experienced it. Just like we cannot feel your pain or guilt. You just have to take our word for it and give him time.
We all know you are trying to do that, he will process it in his own time. To rush it , or get frustrated because he is not trying to help himself is simply setting yourself up for disappointment. I do understand your frustration BTW.

Kissing, such an intimate act of affection, more than the act of SF, IMHO. Just like Julia Roberts in my most favourite movie 'Pretty Woman', Cat told her to not kiss.
I have to consciously not think about my H kissing FOW, sometimes I can and I can kiss him back with the passion it deserves. Other times I can't, and I don't kiss him. I love kissing too, and I am married to the best kisser of all. It makes me so mad that H had so little consideration for that act of affection.
I trust what others here say, that it will get better in time, otherwise I would just get D.

Lovebusters will be a great book for you. Once hubby has healed more, he may surprise you and be receptive to learning about LB's, the nitty stuff in the book. He will have this enthusiasm because he will have gotten to know the new and improved L4.

We need to have coffee together some day !

L4:

Thanks for responding.

No, you missed my point.

Your first response:



When we are sensitive to something, it usually means we do it, and DO IT alot.

How about you do this. Let your H speak. And when he stops talking, DON'T say anything. Let the silence exist. Yes, you can give conversational items like "a quiet "Yes" or "I see" But let him fill the silence. Then if after 30 seconds, you can say something. Because someone WILL jump in as soon as there is a pause, (the speaker takes a breath, makes a conversational pause, etc,) the interupter does NOT feel like they interrupted because there was a pause, and now its MY TURN.

Can you see this?

Your husband feel that you always choose your family over him. He uses Always and every time statements. ANd you choose your sister over him that night. He doesn't get along with your sister? He harrasses her? That is his to fix. And your sisters to fix. You can talk to your H about it some other time.

Then about this:


Guys don't want to talk about the why. They don't need hours of explantion of what went worng. You know what you did wrong. Or how your not going to do it again. Just stop doing it. And when you do it wrong next time, just say, "Sorry, I'm trying not to do that anymore, but old habits are hard, and I realized my mistake...Sorry. And leave it at that.

And then there is this:

Your husband asked if you were going to talk to him.

A simple YES or NO would have sufficed. A discussion about the weather, The final Four, or the stock market would have been good. However, you went right back at him. Defending yourself for disrespecting HIM. You just can't let the argument lie can you.

BTDT. 17 years of it. I could NEVER win. Flamingo would just come back, and come back and make SURE THAT WHATEVER arguement that I had was soundly defeated, no mater how wrong she was.

Flamingo, meet L4, L4, meet Flamingo.

Because darnit! he wouldn't let me win....

So, do you want to be right, or do your want to be married?

And you close with this:

Yes it was. You blamed your HUSBAND for it all again.

((((L4))))

Really. This stuff is tough. I don't know your Husband, and I can't fix him. I can try and help you. I think your getting it. Does your HUSBAND have SOME BLAME here? Yes. But. Your here.

LG

I was watching the most boring online training videos for a new application we got at work. You can't fast forward through them so I was reading MB in the background and in-between during the many parts I already know. I felt like I was back in college procrastinating that paper I didn't want to do. I was up until 4 in the morning going through them all for my boss.

I read this, V, and while smiling I still wanted to say, "But, V... You weren't there. It wasn't like that. Really..." but that doesn't matter. I understand what you and LG are saying. I'll drop it. I feel like I let H get out all he needed to. But I see what you're saying. I'll shut-up now.

Maybe I do this. H doesn't accuse me of it, but that doesn't mean I don't. My H tends to do the, "I'm sorry, but," a lot. We devoted 15 minutes to it one MC session last fall and even with the counselor guiding him, H still didn't get how that affects the recipiant. Hopefully we both have time to work on these things.

No... I'm quite certain you're always right.

I'm more stubborn-er than you. Wanna bet?

In a heartbeat if it will help.

I believe you. None of you have ever steered me wrong.

It's been lacking in our marriage for years. I mean for probably 10 - 12 years. After my confession, it was back, passionate, and fantastic. Now it's gone again. Maybe it was my little frosting meant to last only a short while and I should be glad I had it again for 4 months. Better then not at all.

I'll buy the first round.