No, she is not faking honesty, she doesn't have to fake it. She has told you openly she is UNWILLING TO BE HONEST:


She is unwilling to be honest about her affairs. That is not honesty. Not even close.



This is not true.

Ok Dalton, one more opportunity to ignore me. You need to do a surprise phone switch on her. Make her take yours, tell her no erasing messages and texts. If the OM or a number that you don't know calls. Let the message take it. And then play it back. You may find out something that at this point you are trying to avoid.

My question to you, DD, is are you willing to go forward in this knowing she is UNWILLING to be honest about her affairs?

Are you willing to accept the marriage on those terms?

Mel,

Reading your comments, I would say "you" should go back and re-read SAA.
I'm not perfect so I'm flubbing up a bit. But the steps I've been following are correct.

A BS MUST prove to themselves over and over "independantly" that the WS isn't still lying. I'm doing that and will continue to.

There is no blind faith here. My eyes are open. I'm more aware of the past than anyone, WW included.


Therefore based on your comments, you're either purposley trying to upset me (rile me up, or cause me to doubt myself) or you've got no clue what you are talking about.

No clue ???

Dalton:

Mel can get under your skin because she picks at the scab that most nneds to be picked.

Sorry. That's what she does so well.

It's your life. There are your shoes.

Your WW was no interest in being Open and Honest, and will not.

Your building, slowly, to establish your boundaries. I commend you for that. Nothing wrong with being encouraged to "Move Faster!"

Life WILL get better.

LG

Ok, so what is your plan?

I mean it sounds like you are trying to reach some "steady state" in your M, where your WW will no longer use leaving you as her final offer or back up plan. Monitoring her for NC, meeting EN's and avoiding LB's in hopes that at some point it will "tip the scales" so that you can feel confident she is more motivated to address her issues instead of fleeing. Sort of a wait till they "grow up" plan.

Philosophically, I can see the appeal of this plan, because it seems like they are so close to "getting it" that it would be tragic to throw it all away right when they are on the cusp of "growing up." "Pushing" them just seems to send things in the wrong direction. Finally, it has the appeal that it seems it will be easier for the WW to work through these issues once they are "grown up."

Practically, this approach has some major drawbacks. The first, is that the WW seldom "grows up" without being pushed. Not pushing them tends to have the opposite effect. It enables them to become more childish. Second, even if they did grow up, working through their issues becomes harder. Most times they get more entrenched. Lastly, it's just brutal on the BS.

What this really becomes, this waiting for them to grow up, is that while you are waiting, it is a M where the WW sets the terms. Any issue, condition, or requirement that violates what the WW is comfortable with will be rejected with a "take it or leave it" response.


Thus, I think this question is valid. Perhaps it should be posed as how long are you willing to accept a M on those terms? If in 6 months your WW is unwilling to discuss the A, is that acceptable?

You aren't in recovery until she is truthful about her past. It establishes that she still cares more about herself, than she does about you or the M. Which means, your M is in "limbo".

Now, if you are okay with your M being in limbo for some period of time, okay. I think sometimes, that's just the way it is.

But usually, what gets people going here is when people deny that their M is in limbo, when it obviously is. Or worse, when they know its in limbo, don't like it, but don't want to do what it takes to fix that.

Dalton,

There is a thread on GQII, 'False Recoveries, need voices of experience' by Pepperband.

If you read it you will see just how easy it is to have a false recovery, even when people think they are doing things right.

Much can be learned from that thread, if you have faith in what others are saying.

rprynne,
my "plan" isn't mine it's from SAA.

WW is in NC OM. WW has been honest/open regarding of the details of the affair. YES I'VE GOT MORE QUESTIONS...But I'll adress that later. I'm proving to myself that what she tells me daily is true. Not everything. But enough that if I catch wind of one lie I'll know there are more. There's been nothing since D-day.

I'm under no allusions here, I don't think I'm in recovery, nor will I be for some time.
I'm slowly trying to meet her EN's and will begin to spoon feed her SAA when I'm sure she won't look at it like a vampire does a cross.

Fact is WW messed up. Twice. It's not my place to daily remind her of that. I've told her what "my" conditions are. Right now that's honesty and openness. Yes there's more to come.

As for all the details of her affair, I know most everything that went on. There are some details I don't know. This isn't rocket science though. An affair is a dirty secret thing built on lies and more lies. Honesty is built on trust. In the midst of AO's and what-not forced honsty becomes a LB. Yeah, I'm sure Mel, would laugh at me for that comment. "WHAT ARE YOU NAIVE AND STUPID TOO?" But I get it. It's not giving WW a pass. It's giving WW time to get back into the marriage properly so that she's doing these things because she wants to, because she sees the vaule in the truth. The value they bring to the recovery of the marriage.

Dr. Harley is right about honesty, that no matter what, the BS is better off knowing. It builds trust. The timing of that honesty is a critical parameter.

I'm not naive.

My comment this AM was simply after re-reading SAA, the BS has a heavy burden. In the midst of trying to meet WS's EN's and avoid LB, the BS must manage their resentment and pain.
SO BAM a trigger hits! and a BS wants to confront WS about it. It's a difficult matter. To the WS it may feel like a disrespectful judgement or demand to speak.

There are many things I won't do. Not to protect my WW. But because I don't feel they're respectful.

I don't think I'm in recovery yet. Not by a long shot.

I only know a few things right now, WW is in NC w/ OM, and thus far in every double check I've done (like 10-12 of them so far) she's been honest. That doesn't make WW a stand up gal. It only means she may be serious when she says she wants to save the marriage.

There is an ELEPHANT in the room:




and then...



These contradictory statements were all made on this thread. can you explain this, Dalton? She is unwilling to be HONEST about her affairs yet you say "I'm willing to invest if she's willing to be open and honest." That doesn't jive.

Is that OldeSpeak TruthTalk?

check this out: serial cheaters

I see your point that the statements seem contradictory.

However, "I" feel that before a couple can fully recover they have to rebuild trust. That starts with the honesty and openness. Okay?
I'm not even starting to recover my marriage. I know that. Or if it's happening is baby steps. With some chutes and ladders tossed in.
Not defending WW postion, but she's unwilling to contatntly speak about her A. As most new BS (and me returning) know, that's all they want to talk about. The how, the why, the WTF were you thinking?, the whole shootn' match. THE WS DOESN'T want to talk about that.
IMO, there's got to be some middle ground. If the WS sees A talk as a LB then it's pretty hard to talk about it 24/7! If the BS wants to talk about it 24/7 and can't that's a LB too.
My marriage needs talk about the past and present A. There are/were unresolved issues.

Again, not defending WW, I don't think she's a serial cheat. I could be wrong. After reading the post you linked/bumped. I'm not inclined to think so. She screwed up royally twice. It was selfish, rotten etc etc. But MY failure to address all of our issues after her last A is part of why we are here again. It not my fault she cheated. That's all on her. I was beaten and gave up and settled for what I could get last time.
Big screw up on my part. But that's where my failings end.

A certian amount of mutual trust needs to be built before I/we delve into the more difficult issues. Again maybe you'd call that naive on my part, but my eyes are open.

I am willing to put in the hard work. Yes the condition is she being open and honest. Yes she's not "ready" to tell me all the details of her affair. Hell, I know most of it. One sexual encounter, a month or two of talking while she was at work, she got pregnant. She got a chemical abortion. Since the night of the sexual encounter she's never contacted OM again. I am pretty sure all of that is the truth. Do I hound her as to the last point. Hell yes. And I check it constantly.
Do I need to know more, I think so. But, I can wait.

If I look at SAA, if I get things in place for she and I so we are ready to begin recovery that is the best I can do.
Start with trust and honesty as a two way street. I need to know she's being honest, she needs to trust I'm going to treat her in a respectful manner. Doens't mean roll over and let her walk over me. But, as SAA says, this should never be a matter excerting power or control over other spouse. I won't allow her that over me (unlike last time), and she needs to realize that's not my motivation.
And yes, shortly she'll have SAA tossed in her lap. Sorta as an....let's use this as a road map.

I'm less emotional, because I am protecting myself and my children. But, I'm also ensuring that she knows that our marriage can be fixed. AND YES, my eyes are open. And she knows that.

DD,

I think it is fair that you consider yourself NOT in recovery. It is probably an accurate assessment. However, you will need to know the answers to your questions before recovery can really happen. More importantly in my mind is that your W is going to have to come up with a plan for the recovery of the marriage. Not your plan, but her plan. At this point a negotiation POJA, can be understaken to discuss what it will really take to create a plan for recovery that you both will be able to follow.

She needs to know that when she is ready to really try recovery she will need to bring a plan to the table.

God Bless,

JL

thats exactly my point. How will trust be built WITHOUT openess and honesty. She is unwilling to be honest. Therefore trust will be impossibe.


A serial cheater is someone who has multiple affairs. That is your wife. She is on her second affair, that you know about.


DD, this all makes it clear to me that you are not serious about recovery at all. Recovery from multiple affairs takes a GLOBAL EFFORT where the WS must make dramatic changes in her own life. Your wife is not interested in any such thing. She refuses to take the first step, which is honesty. She knows you have no boundaries.

I thought it was even more dire than that. Didn't she have 2 affairs that he knows about, and then 2 weeks after he took her back the last time, she was talking to a 3rd guy on the internet about how much of a mistake it was to return to him? Even if she didn't physically consumate that one, it shows just how deep her waywardness runs. She is definitely a serial cheater. DD needs to be more focused on the deep seated character flaw that led to this behavior than whether or not she is in NC now.

I think one fatal flaw in DD's approach to his WW is that he assumes if he doesn't push her too hard now, she will volunteer to resurrect this painful information later on when things are getting better between them. DD...throw that idea out of your head right now. It is not going to happen. Your WW will use that as an excuse NOT to talk about the things you need to talk about. The truth is not a LB. All you are really doing right now is helping her to avoid the real consequences. The logical end result of that is that she won't learn what she really needs to learn to protect you from further adultery.

If you don't believe what everyone here is telling you, why don't you consult with the harley's. Or is your wife blocking you from marriage counseling as well?

ARRRGGGHHH!

Could ya'll at least cut me a little slack here! I'm trying!

I'm holding my WW accountable for her actions. She IS NOT getting a free pass back into the marriage. This isn't let by-gones-be-by-gones. This is serious shi$.

WW by is making changes. Is being open and honest. I've said that 20 times now.

About the only positive advice I've gotten is negotiation POJA. Which I was going to do at the time I "tossed SAA in her lap" Okay crappy choice of words. Spank me again. I need a bit more abuse.

I keep being put in a postion where I feel I must defened WW's actions. The heck with that! I don't want to. They were selfish and dispicable.
With calling me a screw up:
Tell me how holding her accountable for her actions, insisting on the truth (and checking on her), requiring openness and honesty, limiting LB's, trying to meet her EN's is not doing what I should be?

That is straight from SAA.

Do I expect her to make other changes? Yes
Do I expect her to tell me of those? Yes
About her plans for those? Yes

Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm not in recovery and therefore I don't expect instant solutions. This marriage is FUBR!

Mel, et. al.... I know you've got it in you to give me contructive advice without knocking me down. Without using my words to trip me up. If you can't ignore my posts and assume I'm wallowing in self pity. (Granted, I do that from time to time).

DD,

Maybe it would help us to understand where you are coming from if you could describe how you are holding her accountable for her actions and requiring honesty from her?

It doesn't seem that you are doing that but it is easy to miss the whole picture. Some specifics might help in terms of what you mean by holding her accountable, and what does it mean to require something?

Geez DD, I gave you some constructive advice about self respect and dealing with abuse, which IMHO cut to the core of your problem. But you didn't respond.

I find it frustrating posting to you and others report this too. So I took your advice and stopped posting.

I suggest you start listening to others' experiences and acting on some of the advice you've been given, or at least respond to it.

You're not listening!