What's got my tail twisted today?

He's giving a double-bind. Both he and our MC have acknowledged great change on my part, however, he's constantly saying how it took him being ready to leave, so he is unsure it will stick and this pessimistic about the whole thing. Ummm, OK, I think this sucks. Instead of looking FOR me to rubberband back to bad ways, how about enjoying and appreciating the good ways, and seeing if we can grow together in the new climate? I mean, his claim that I poisoned the climate before is now kinda, ummm, pot calling the kettle black, in that now he is poisoning the climate by worrying that I'm not authentic in wanting to make the changes I have made and in keeping this up as a lifestyle. How do I overcome that one? I mean, seriously, there are no time machines, and how could I have corrected things that he was upset with if he never told me he was upset with them. This sounds like a statement that confirms his steadfast commitment to letting me spin my wheels endlessly, while he won't even be open to genuinely working with the situation. GRRRRR. And I still have to also take the honesty issues to our MC tomorrow, so of course H is going to be, shall we say less than thrilled? GRRRR. This is all so hard.

What changes have you made that are seen by both mc and husband?

Hon, just remember that his view is his to own. Nothing you can do about how he decides to feel and think.

You just keep taking the high road, doing what is right and what is honest - including talking to MC tomorrow - and let him worry about what he does with it.

If he gets in your face or something, just smile and say 'Really? You choose to blame me for your unhappiness? Hmmm. Ok, well, you do what you have to do, but I can only work on my own 50%.' He'll get it eventually, that he can't manipulate you into making his life easier.

cp is exactly right. No matter how unfair you think he is being, his feelings are his feelings, and it is a waste of energy to try to talk him out of them.

HOWEVER, he is following the script:

1. Engage in secretive inappropriate behavior outside of the marriage.

2. Create distance and diversion by finding flaws in your marriage partner.

3. Create more distance and diversion by using physically and emotionally separating from the marriage partner while continuing secretive and inappropriate behavior outside of the marriage.

Oh oh....marriage partner shows "improvement"....must think of something else to maintain distance and discord.

4. Eureka!!!!! Discount "improvement" and use it as a wedge to create MORE space and discord while continuing secretive and inappropriate behavior outside of the marriage.

In other words....this is not about you. It is all about how impossible it is to do any real work on the marriage when one partner is engaged in secretive and inappropriate behavior, (which I don't think is all exposed)

Your husband isn't going to be "happy" no matter WHAT you do. That won't help his game. So if you make changes, (which you should if they are positive for YOURSELF and the future of your marriage when your husbands pulls his head out of his posterior)
he can complain that they are not enough, or fast enough or maybe won't last. If you didn't make changes, then you are just handing him ammunition. In fact, if anything the more you make positive changes, the "angrier" he may become, because you are making things more difficult for him. Boo hoo.

This is not about you. Just keep making positive changes for you, for your child and for you marriage. THAT is all you can do. Your marriage cannot recover until your husband stops doing whatever it is he is doing. Oh, and you are making THAT more difficult too by invading the poor man's privacy. Double boo hoo.

Here's the question. How do you predict it will go down with the MC. I think you need to be ready for various reactions on both the MC and husbands reactions.

FHL #1-

What changes? H has historically been a very laid back person, like some people are Type A and others are the calmer Type B's, well he's further down the alphabet when he's himself. What I have learned is that as a strong woman of the Type A variety, it's very easy to just "get 'er done," and that feels to him as if I am controlling or rolling over him. It has been a hard change to make, because when someone is sooooooo laid-back, you barely feel them even make a peep, so it hardly feels wrong to get things done and run the show.

You see, I've ALWAYS been the doer... if he wanted a new job, historically I would write his resume, with his informational assistance, and email it while he complained about his present plight. *I* thought I was being a helpful and supportive spouse... his clothes wear out, and he hates shopping and keeps wearing stuff that is frankly embarassing, I always thought the loving thing to do was to take care of it, since he really expressed not caring one way or the other. We were gonna take a vacation, guess who did all the packing, and all the research and reservations? Now, NOW that is being called controlling, yada yada. He claimed I pushed him out of the finances, while I saw it as him JUMPING out, leaving the stress on me.

I had a tendency to DJ and AO because no matter how much I tried to constructively express that I felt all adult responsibilities were being laid on me, I never felt he paid attention to my feelings or responded in any constructive way. We've also had a pattern wherein he does what I interpret as needling me, and I get to feeling like a caged animal being poked, so I lash back. I have found my "I statements," and now I am far better at telling him "my discomfort is at at least a level 5, therefore this isn't the right time to hunker down and deal with this."


FHL, as to the second post... I see alot there. While I do take a load of responsibility for being falling into negative habits in my frenzied and over-burdened nature, I remember for years and years how much he genuinely seemed to prefer I do everything. I think, to a point, he *looks* for me to be controlling or trying to control. I pray you are wrong that there is more to discover, but I won't say I'm more than 80% sure I'm fully informed after the last time I tried to hazzard a guess.

I have NO CLUE what will happen with the MC. I can't even begin to guess. Historically, I feel as if our counselor is harder on me, than on H... like he'll dig into my individual issues resulting in making me feel kinda naked and filleted, but then when it comes to H's deep personal thoughts and issues, he closes him off and tells him to take it back to his own IC so he doesn't create more fray to repair. I can't imagine there's anything left in his scrambled head that would be worse than all of this that I already know. I hope our MC doesn't poo poo his crap behavior away... I fear he might, much like he poo pooed H's behavior when I was pregnant and H said he fantasized about sabotaging my hormone capsules so I would miscarry. To me, that was over the top, and not at all something my H would ever have said, particularly because this is a man who LITERALLY "relocates" bugs rather than killing them... if MC doesn't poo poo it, I fear H could have an AO and get very immature and storm out... I don't know. Pray for us

I will pray for you.

I hope you have a MC will see your H's behavior as a BIG problem, but it may not happen. If it doesn't, KNOW as you do in your heart, it IS the problem. It is not about you!

You deserve so much for credit for taking things so seriously and making changes, despite of that you played the role you played in the marriage as a response to your husband's personality and hands off nature.

I fear he might, much like he poo pooed H's behavior when I was pregnant and H said he fantasized about sabotaging my hormone capsules so I would miscarry.

OK what is up with this? He didn't want to be a father? What is he like as a father now? How has a child changed your marriage?

It sounds as your MC sessions are more of a lets fix Whiterussian rather than lets fix this marriage. I hope that is not the case. I know it is almost impossible, but stay strong. You are doing your best in a difficult situation.

I have been pregnant 7 times, and we have one child. The others were all lost, including a loss in February. When H first told me all this shtuff about never having had romantic love for me and all that, I reacted in desperation... to be honest, I tried to f*** my way through it. Neither of us ever in a million years thought I would get pregnant, because we have struggled so badly with fertility. We have spent 7.5 years of our 9 years of marriage trying to get pregnant. Before the first child, I had 4 miscarriages. Since kiddo, I had one in April 07, and another in Feb 09. In January, when I got pregnant, it was... how can I say this? G-d has a sick sense of humor?

Our first MC session had been 1/9 and the MC had had H promise to stick around for at least a month because I was feeling too frenetic listening to his constant "I'm almost gone" speech. I had thought this discussion was in the vein of agreement to work on things, not a set "day for freedom." Apparently H kinda took it as the latter. Meanwhile, he took up with his own IC the 3rd week of January, and February 2nd while he was at his second IC session he was proclaiming to his IC how clearly he saw things and he was leaving, and had already started stealthy movements bringing stuff to store at his moms until he found a place to stay... and while he was having this discussion, I was feeling a little off, and decided to alay my fears and pee on a stick and lo and behold it was a dark positive, like I have NEVER had before.

So, after having tried for so long, I had to follow my gut and proceed with prenatal care. For me, that means getting hormones to maintain the pregnancy from the minute I figure out I am pregnant, otherwise miscarrying is a given. Though even I knew the timing was bad, I couldn't slap G-d/karma/whatever in the face by just letting it miscarry as if it wasn't something to care for, so I got onto the hormones within a few hours, and called our MC in a panic trying to get a special session to break the news to H. Our MC wasn't in the office, so the next day I was trying to hold it all in while I waited for the MC to call and eventually H caught onto an added vibe of some kind, and guessed it... and promptly began telling me off for getting onto the hormones and packing right in front of me, telling me that it didn't change anything because he had already decided to leave. Our MC did step up and tell him that it DID change things, but H was a real [censored] through it all, constantly talking wishfully about miscarriage and penalizing me for taking the hormones.

He told me he fantasized about freezing them because he thought it might screw up their efficacy, and he could get away with it, and I'd miscarry... then he told me that he had told me this so that he could not lose control and actually DO IT. So I started hiding my hormones so he couldn't sabotage them. I started having bad bleeding on Valentines day and H had to take me to the ER, even the nurse there waited until he went to the bathroom to come see if he had CAUSED the miscarriage through some sort of abuse because she just couldn't get over how he was grinning so happily when they said that it looked as if this pregnancy was in trouble. It was horrific. He kept telling me that if had gotten pregnant at any other time it would have been OK, but that this was awful and I wsa selfish and horrible for taking the hormones.

After the baby was officially pronounced to be gone, he actually got nicer again, but during those couple of weeks he was downright mean to me telling me how some of his coworkers thought I had done it intentionally to trap him, when he damn well knew that just 3 weeks before we conceived we had been talking about more fertility treatments, and then he suddenly put the whole world on it's head. I was about to go back on the pill, but had been waiting to start at the right cycle point so I didn't have the usual reaction when I start at the wrong point (8 weeks of hemoraging... I didn't feel I could physically take that in addition to this sudden turn of events). So, here I sit, not even 2 months after a miscarriage, and I haven't even really gotten to process that at all...

Oh, I am so sorry for your loss. And for your previous losses. Both my SIL's had several miscarriages and each and everyone was the loss for them.

I also just saw how young you were married and really how young you were as a first time mom.

I assume your husband did not act like that during your other pregnancies and it clearly shows how truly out of it he truly has become.

You must be reeling from all of this!

One thing you did not answer is how your husband is as a father to your child.

Also, what about his mom? Was it just OK with her that he began storing stuff at his house? During the worst times in my marriage, my in-laws were totally pro-marriage. They would never have allowed my husband to store stuff at their home. Is anyone in your life on the side of your marriage?

You are only a few years older than my oldest. I so wish I could reach out and give you a hug!

Yes, I was married at 19 and a mom at 23. (And no, I did not marry pregnant, I married by choice because I knew I had found my soulmate whom G-d had made for me. I didn't get pregnant the first time until some months later.) My whole life has been on the accelerated path. It's just part and parcel of me.

My H was nothing like this alien with kiddo. I was on bedrest from 28 weeks, and he cooked and fetched and doted over me/us. My only gripe was that he didn't catch on to the seriousness of my post partum depression, and didn't pick up the slack when I no longer was able to pay bills. I had worked so hard to get us to a point of having GREAT credit, and it all went to pot and it's so hard to recover from... but when I was pregnant, I was a Queen. Back rubs, foot rubs, belly rubs, errands, midnight cravings, you name it. I didn't marry an arsehole, even though I recently woke up next to one. In all seriousness, I don't know if he's in a nervous breakdown or a midlife crisis, or what, but I would have been less surprised to have been hit by a bus while swimming in a lake.

As far as pro-marraige people. Mother in law is actually pretty pro-marriage, reminding H that marraige isn't the Hollywood thing that we see on movies. We have a few friends that have been very pro-marriage, too, but H has adopted the view that anyone who is actually intelligent and truly cares will want him to follow his path to enlightenment and happiness. I dunno how sleezes with Brazilian wax jobs and live webcams are a path to enlightenment, but the path to self-discovery and enlightenment are all he talks about lately.

I think, by and large, he is a good Dad. I wish he would be a better disciplinarian, and get less caught up on himself sometimes wen kiddo is practically cartwheeling for his attention, but I think that in some degrees that is a pretty male thing.

I would have been less surprised to have been hit by a bus while swimming in a lake.


Yes, ten years ago I felt the same way! In fact most here felt the same way.

I hope MC goes well for you today.

Oh clear-headed people lend me your eyes, keyboards and wisdom

MC this morning really, well crap I feel we did nothing, or if we did anything we set me on a course to feel sh1tty. I outted the computer lies issue and the therapist spoke to H about whether H had left clues so he would get caught. (Ummm no) H told MC that he felt MC had shut him down on this issue, MC asked if we should delve in, and we did, with a plastic spoon to all the depth it is capable of

MC tells H that he knows he would sure as hell be feeling awful if he found his wife pursuing endevours like those I found H pursuing, and asks H if this is a new thing. H replies that it has been an on and off thing for years, though he is very proud of himself that he didn't actually cheat on me, ever, not even so much as a kiss. He's very proud of this considering that he has never been physically attracted to me. I'm a great friend to him, he doesn't want to hurt me, yada yada (at this point, I actually bust into laughing tears, oh how I tried not to).

H, with MC seeming to buy it all hook-line-sinker, tells how our relationship began when he was in a vulnerable and rejected phase. Since I showed H so much interest, and pursued the relationship, H went along with it because it felt so good to have someone admire and want him. He just went along with it. That's his story. He had stuffed it all away, ignored it. Until he started to interact with college f___buddy, and that forced him to think about it.

(By the way, college F---buddy is a complete f-up. She never had romantic interest in him, cheats on anyone she is ever supposedly dating, and only gave my H occasional interludes to keep him chasing after her because she thrives on adulation. She skrews anything that walks, and even skrewed H when she was supposedly dating one of his closest friends at the time. She's still just as messed up, or more. Thankfully she is a 5 hour drive, or he'd have gone for a helping by now, I bet. He has an obsession with her... but seriously, THAT twit is what made him think about what he doesn't have with me? She may be thin, but she is ugly and aging poorly from the fast life, and OH YEAH she's a whore and wanted to do him up the poop-chute with a strap on back in the day... the only act she was denied, reportedly.)

I tell H and MC that I think this is a complete crock, and won't accept that it's all my fault because I had the audacity to love him. MC gives me the whole "Don't blame yourself, there is nothing you did or could do about this, you tend to take on too much responsibility." H "doesn't want to break me with all of this," and I kinda AO'd a bit, though I wasn't yelling or anything really awful. I told him if he wanted out so effing bad that he should go grab all his [censored] and leave, because he's doing me no favors lying to me and treating me with disrespect. I do, actually, believe it will break me if he leaves, but per all your advice here I stuck to my story. I told him that if he really wanted to leave, he could go, and it would be his to regret because I have been nothing but good and dedicated to him, and given him a wonderful family that he'd be throwing away. I asked the MC if there was really anything to work on, and we were closing with a "hold that thought," we're still seeing if changing interactions can allow love to grow in that space.

Help. Help me see clearly. Help me find my strong point again. Please. We didn't even touch the issue of the bikes. I'm leaning toward giving him his bike so we can bike ride on Friday, a rare day where we are both off work and kid is in school... I am leaning toward that because that would be Plan A wouldn't it? Help me sort this all out... or at least feel a little strength. You know that wicked little voice of doubt? He's loud today. I never thought for a moment that there was ever the genuine possibility that he never loved me and stowed that the whole time, but now the wicked voice of doubt is skrewing with me...

So when you told husband he could leave, how did he and the mc react?

H just kinda sat there, didn't jump at the offer, and MC jumped in and said "Let's not go there yet. I'm not convinced we should go there yet. Let's come back to this next week," and we all left it at that.

I don't really want him out. I want him IN, as in FIGHTING FOR THIS. Dammit, if any of his crap were true, what would he lose it actually working the MB program with me just to see if it helped? What's he so afraid of? If he really doesn't want to hurt me, what's stopping him from giving it a shot. And furthermore, eff this double-bind he put me in. He keeps saying how I only changed when he was about to leave, ummm well OK, but how could I change before you told me??? I haven't got a time machine, so his question is kinda pissing me off... DAMMIT, I WANT MYYYYYYY H BACK. (And to set college f___buddys hair on fire!)

So what is the official status of your husband's online activity? Was it news to you that it has been on/off for years?

The official status? He's done no more of the nefarious stuff since I called him out on it. He actually went in and deleted the alternate Facebook account (though I think that was because I had the password, so it was no longer fun... plus by quickly deleting it he prevented me from taking screenshots to show to our counselor or whatever)

Was it news that he had watched online porn on and off through the years, no, not really. There had been times early on where he and I would do kinky things having gotten ideas from porn together or playing "follow the porn." We even, for a few months about 3 years into our relationship had a porn channel because we had fun playing along... but then we both *BOTH* got bored with it and stopped it.

After kiddo, we hit a little rough patch, nothing like this though. We read a book together that advocated against porn for men (not as harsh for women), because men are more prone to porn addictions and to substituting images in their heads and thus negatively effecting their romantic relationship. H even agreed with this and even spoke as recently as when this started about feeling poorly about letting other images into his head when we were together and how he had snuck a little porn and felt poorly about it.

*sigh*

Oh, and I won tickets for a comedy club and he still wants me to get friends lined up to go with us so we can go on our date... *sigh* I spoke to him recently and nothing has really changed for him after this mornings session, so is that a good sign?

I'm ditching Passover seder tonight because I just can't fake it... I'm giving myself a few hours of me time (kiddo well nourished and parked in front of Disney flicks) to sit and wallow, and then I'll put my "I'll make it, I'm hot and desirable" face back on for when he gets home.

he is very proud of himself that he didn't actually cheat on me, ever, not even so much as a kiss.

I guess it is POSSIBLE that this online stuff is it, along with the contact with past person. And although I think this is a form of cheating, since it is done in secret, with the opposite sex, maybe he has convinced that this is within boundaries.

How about this for a theory. If your husband feels that he has been passive in your marriage, maybe he is using the online stuff, the other person and the disenchantment in general to gain some perceived power. Of course it would follow that he would have to tear you down and/or engage in hurtful behavior.

Have there been any changes in another area of his life, like work, where a powershift occurred, which may have hurt his confidence or made him feel less in charge?

How is his relationship with his mom and other members of his family? Is she dominant? By the way, you did you tell her about the online stuff?

Do you think he has tried to make you his mommy wife?

Don't believe all of his rewritten history. You know better, so trust that.

About the bikes, yeah why not? It would be very plan A. If you are in Plan A, remember no disrespectful judgements or other lovebusters.

When the MC said you take too much responsibility, he was trying to tell you it is about your husband, not about you.

So he deleted the secret account, but has he made any commitment to you at mc to STOP? Did MC suggest he should stop? Did your husband try to accuse you of invading his privacy in front of MC?

Stay strong. Stay level headed. Plan A....but keep snooping.

I know this is the wrong thing to say, but I think your H would benefit from a dose of 'what the h&ll is she doing?' from you. As in you're bold and beautiful and dressed to the 9s and can't keep up with all the offers for going out that you've been getting lately and...well, it really wouldn't be that bad if he were gone because then you'd have time to look into all those men who've shown interest in you.

From a psychological standpoint, you are dead meat to him. He KNOWS you sit around waiting for him and hoping for time from him and really don't want anything else in the world but him.

That knowledge, unfortunately, is a major subconscious turnoff in people. If you were to start having other things to do, didn't really need him all that much, I can almost guarantee he'd be going, 'wait, what? when did this happen? who are all these people who want to be with her? maybe I'd better rethink this or I'm going to lose her.'

JMO

No commitments... just the statement that he has lost interest.



Soooo anywho... I went back and snuck a look at his ENQ.

#1 Conversation
#2 RC
#3 Honesty (that's rich, huh?)
#4 Family Commitment
#5 PA

So I'm working on gaining more convo starters, since lately we have a hard time finding conversation... and I'm giving him the bike and we're going riding Friday just the 2 of us, and perhaps Sat or Sun morning with kiddo.

Yeah don't think I haven't thought about that. I even showed him the email my ex sent me telling me how I was the best thing in his life and he'd love another chance with me. I also make sure to tell him when men flirt with me during the day. I've been really on top of my game, even if I'm wearing jeans I haven't looked le-frump at all since this started, with the only exception being the day I was in the ER losing the baby. I have gone out a couple times with girl friends and there's a bar I've been to a few times that notoriously finds me getting picked up on, and I have told him. But during one of our recent dates, he did inform me that his IC had asked if a new man in my life would bother him, and he had said after supposedly soul-searching that it would not, because he doesn't have that kind of feeling for me.Some guy on Facebook tonight was flirting with me like crazy, and I was going to tell H how I had to defriend this guy because his only interest is twisting a conversation into perversion.

That same book I referenced before had said that in extreme circumstances a wife should doll all up and arrive at a bar before her H so he can come and see how much she is getting flirted with. The only problem with the bar I mentioned before is that it is small, and I run the risk that it's kinda empty and the only dudes there to flirt with me might not be such choice characters. Don't think I haven't thought of hiring a couple aspiring actors to show up and fawn over me...

Soooo... we're gonna be together sans child tomorrow morning, and Friday most of the day and night, and could be Sat and Sun morning... I'm evaluating something... there's a cheap 2 hour photography class Saturday morning that I am thinking of taking... should I?

(My thoughts are multi-fold... H has shown an interest in photography here and there, doing landscapes and such, so I could perhaps learn some stuff and that would give us something to talk about and do together. And, along catperson's idea, maybe I can talk a man there into taking a few pics of me with my own camera so I have some stories for H about my popularity.)



Ugh, and this just in... H called me from his carpool buddies cell. (H doesn't have a cell) He's gonna be a little late because he and carpool buddy are going to watch Colbert Report... I did hesitate when he told me, and he offered me the chance to speak to carpool buddy, but I felt that was a little uncomfy... but would I be completely out of line to quiz him on what he saw? (Since, now I am watching, too)