Just here to give you (((((L4)))))

I care.

Believe it or not, I have done this, LG. Maybe not 30 seconds, probably more like 10 seconds and it hasn't worked very well. I'll count to 30 next time and see what happens.

You have no idea how huge this is for me, trying to change my way of being for 42 years. Yet I've been doing this. I spoke for my sister in this case and I saw what that looked like then and even more now. Please understand that since my confession and since I discovered POJA last fall, I have chosen my H everytime (except obviously this time) even when I know it will hurt my family.

I told my family they were not welcome at our place at Thanksgivng and we spent it alone. I've told my parents twice that they cannot stay at our place (an hour away from their home) and have asked them to not stop by while they've been visiting our city. I didn't get upset when H left my family's Christmas celebration to spend a few hours at his Dad's, even though we had spent Christmas Eve with him. I didn't attend a special event at my sister's house where my parents were too (H was invited as well) and we stayed home instead. I've sought my H's opinion on family interactions since I learned of POJA and have gone with what he's wanted to do every time when we've disagreed. I am careful when I use absolute words. But I'm confident it using "every" in this case.

I'm trying to point out to anyone who cares that I'm really paying attention when it comes to my family. What I saw as simply answering a question for Sis was perceived by H as siding with her. I didn't see how this looked to him until it was too late. I should not have picked that discussion as the time to reveal how I came to my epiphany. I should have apologized and left it at that. As I've done many times before.

That sounds like a parting shot and while I do kind of mean it that way, I also mean that I need to consider how I handle H's interuptions going forward. I can't let H talk to me as he does sometimes, but I also can't make the discussion about something it isn't. Find another time to bring up issues that I have.

Well, I was asking for only 2 minutes not hours, but I hear ya. Point taken.

Um... Assumptive?

I will.

If this is a question, no. When I feel my feelings/opinions/input are being or have been dismissed, I keep trying. And this is a case where I shouldn't have tried. I should have answered yes or no and turned out the light. As it was, I didn't get any resolution anyway as we were both so flooded with emotions. I disrespected H (and Sis too, quite frankly) when I answered the question.

The pleasure is mine. She seems like a lovely lady.

See reply to JT.

Lucky me.

Merci, Sparkacheena.

Hey L4! I'm still keeping up with your thread and learning a lot myself. I'm sorry about your argument with your H. I know it can be very frustrating when you feel you aren't being heard.

A lot of the advice you have been given I don't necessarily understand...not saying it is wrong, I just don't understand it. I suppose in this particular case, the one with you speaking for your sis and making your H mad, you should have just apologized and let it go. But for future talks, when are you suppose to address your H's habit of interupting you and talking over you? Unfortunately, I don't have any advice but I hear from your posts that this is a real sticking point for you...so hopefully someone can help you along with that since it seems to be something you deal with often.

So... Since you haven't had enough of me already...

These last several days have been good ones with us. Last Thursday my parents took our kids out for most of the day (spring break) and then stayed for dinner. My H and my parents got along really well -- the most comfortable everyone has been since D-day. H wasn't hiding in his office and was seeking my father's opinions on house stuff. H was talking with my mom and she didn't seem scared she'd say the wrong thing. I found myself pausing in the kitchen watching the three of them talk and I smiled. Maybe it can be again.

And then Sunday and yesterday were especially nice. Why? We've been talking about future stuff.

The transmission on our '92 Suburban is going out and we were contemplaing whether to replace it or get a new used one. H was in my office Monday every ten minutes -- seriously -- talking to me about this possibility or that possibility... It got so when he walked in my office I just started laughing because I didn't have anything to say other than, "I'm good with any option because I don't know transmissions and I completely trust your judgement on this, Honey." Yet he kept wanting to bounce things off of me and was in and out and IMing me... He was like a kid trying to decide if he wanted the shiny red bike or the shiny blue one. And he was saying things like, "...then if WE need to sell it in 5 years..."

Last night I was lamenting these application videos my boss is making me go through. H was laughing at me, saying he was flashing to what I probably looked like in college. It was funny. He lasted with me working on his own computer 'till after midnight then hit the hay.

Today we're going to pick up his new motorcycle. I am scared about it but again am trusting H will be careful. He's taking a written test about riding right now. He is so excited it's cute. He bought a very LOUD flouresent orange jacket to wear and was conducting a fashion show for me last night including displaying all of the secret pockets it has.

There was a moment yesterday while I was driving us to look at a car and I asked if H if he thought our BIL (my older sister's H) would be coming to my family's reunion this summer, since it looks like they are going through with the D. H said, "I don't even know if I'm going to it." My heart stopped as I was thinking the worst. I grabbed his hand softly as I was driving and ask why he said that. He said, "Well, I haven't committed to going. I don't know if I want to." (I don't understand this. I mean, MY family reunions are THE BEST and my aunts and extended family love my H. Why wouldn't he want to go? ) But I didn't react. I was just grateful he didn't say, "I don't know if we'll be together," and so I said, "Well I hope you do. I'd miss you if you don't go." He looked at me to show he heard me.

So we've been having conversations about things that will last into the future or are happening in the future and he's not raising the possibility that it won't be "us" in the future together.

And the weather here has been unseasonably spectacular. That always helps with the mood.

Then again, I haven't read any other threads today. How are they? Is it nasty out there again or have things calmed down? I feel soooo badly for mgolfer1971 and ZenWolf. My heart just broke yesterday. Twice. And I think others felt the same as boy did some get ugly. Maybe I should stay in my own little world.

Nah...

Not today.

Lemme at 'em.

Oh...

If any of you are in touch with Ace, please pass along that I miss her and hope she's doing well. She means a lot to me here.

G'day!

You must have a lot of time on your hands today then.

Thanks for stopping by. I am typing this with a smile on my face. You do that to me, ruby.

I'm in a pinch for time so this will be short and not very thorough.

But until your copy arrives .....
I picked out a few thoughts by Dr. Harley from DJ's in LB book. We haven't done this chapter yet so I'm not sure if there is anything more specific. Thought this might be helpful in persuading him to stop interrupting. I don't know, does he interrupt when he gets defensive ????

You have the right to end a conversation if you feel pressure to agree or the conversation becomes unpleasant.

Unless you can state your S's opinion clearly and succinctly, your S will either keep trying to explain it to you, or give up. So you should make it clear that you understand and respect each other's opinion.

There's a huge difference between respect for an opposing opinion, and acceptance of that opinion that you wish to change.

Disrespecting an opposing opinion gives the impression that you don't understand it and don't want to understand it.

In contrast, if you demonstrate that you do see the value of that opinion in certain situations but still see the need for change, your conflicting opinion will carry more weight.

I looked in the private forum too and the only posts were from people looking to stop their own problem with interrupting. lol
Anyway, Dr. Harley suggested practice of allowing each other equal time, this could be done with a timer that each has equal time to speak. He also said that this was a habit. We know that habits can be changed.
One poster said that they use a rock, the one holding the rock is able to speak with the other only listening and vice versa.

I'm sorry that I don't have more time to search better for this.

BTW L4, there is a good chapter on Conflict with family/friends.

Read this to yourself when you have doubts. This is the way of recovery...highs, lows, ups, downs, good days, awful days...Movement seems so slow that it is easy to miss that the trend is upward.

Think mountain climbing here. The goal is the peak, but long before you can begin working toward the summit, you drive into the foot hills, going up, then down, then up and down again. And finally you find yourself in a valley at the base of the peak itself. Everything from there on is upward and a hard climb and the valley feels so low...

But in the case of a really tall peak, that valley might be 10, 15, even 17 thousand feet above sea level. It's a valley compared to where you could be, but compared to where you began it's like being on top of the world.

I remember early recovery. One day I was so hopeful and everything seemed to be great. The next day, or even that same afternoon I wanted to just kill her and be done with it all. Then a few days latter something would happen that made the bovine excrement of the days before all worth the effort.

The way to see this is when you have one of those up days, turn around and take a snapshot of where you once were and how high you have already climbed. Save that picture to look at when you go down into the valley on the other side so that you can remember the low point of the trip. Then turn your eyes back on the summit and make another push for the top...


Remember this when you are trying to negotiate for something you want, not for the purpose of bringing it up and using it as leverage, but to see how POJA is supposed to work. You say, "Whatever you want" and might mean it, but that is never the same as saying "Whatever..." POJA requires not acknowledgment and submission but joint enthusiastic agreement. Letting him decide on the Suburban does not give you the right to decide on paint color for the bathroom.

But you feel good about letting him run the show on this because your LB$ is full. And he is willing to cooperate with you and work with you because his LB$ is full (or at least is not in danger of collapse) So you trust each other and want each other to be happy. Your Givers are running wide open...

Why do you suppose that would be?



Next time you're at the top of a hill, get a good shot of where you came from so you can think about it as you drop back into the valley on the other side, where you can't SEE where you came from and everything seems like it is above where you are.


Generally an upward trend, I would say...



Sometimes I devote so much time and energy to trying to help folks around here that when a crisis has passed and things slow down, I feel totally exhausted. The first time it happened I was freaked out by it. I almost decided to just leave. But then I realized that it was because I had empathy for the people involved. I could FEEL what they were feeling, usually because I had memories of those same feelings.

It was learning to detach from my own memories, learning to manage the emotions that come with them that allowed me to remain. Memories trigger feelings and feelings can trigger memories. It's how we remember stuff.

I'll spare the explanation of Emotional Memory Management for now.

Ciao!

Mark

Thank you, Mark.

I'm in a valley at the moment. I had two out-of-the-blue triggers this morning that came about so innocently from left field. Triggers to remind me how my life has forever changed. How my H is forever changed. How people perceive me is forever changed. And I am sooooooo pi**ed at myself.

WHY THE F DID I DO THIS?! I just want to SCREAM and cut my heart out of my body.

I'm sitting in my office crying my eyes out from disgust, hurt, sadness, and anger. I can hear H in his office on the phone talking with a co-worker... Laughing.

Good thing you can't swear on this board because I am so mad at me! SO F'-IN ANGRY AT MYSELF!

I'm torn between wanting to curl up into a ball under the covers and getting into my car and running away.

How do you make it so you can drive your kids to school and not be hit upside the head, or turn on your computer and have a friend unknowingly rock your world in an instant? How can I stop the reminders of how I blew it and have changed important relationships forever?

Please make it stop. And yet, you can't.

Guess it's time for one of those never-too-far away awful days. I'm trying to find a snapshot of earlier this morning when I was going up the hill and feeling good, but it's lost among the pity party I'm throwing for myself at the moment.

I'll answer your post another time, Mark. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I value your words.

You too, V. Thank you.

L4:

I want you to know that I am 3 years, 8 months past Dday.

I can tell you that there were some dark days during that time. I can tell you that it may have cost me in excess of $20k or more. With a reduced future income of 5-7k a year.

Because of the darkness that could decend on me and I wouldn't be doing what I should be doing..

YOu have to struggle through it. The folks here are great. The info here is great. It was worse in the beginning. Much worse. Its getting better. Much better.

Hang in there.

LG

Hello Looking4...

When I said that you were a lot like Mrs.Flint I wasn't kidding...

Those are nearly her words verbatim...

during her redemption...

The grief and sorrow that she felt nearly killed her...

because what she had done was totally out of character for the woman she really was...

When a truly good and wonderful human being betrays themselves, their family and their God there is going to come a time when the bill comes due...

and they are faced with the consequences of their actions...

where they truly UNDERSTAND what they have done...

and they wish that with all of their heart they could undo what they have done...

it is called repentance...

and you are right on schedule...

it may not feel like it right now but you are doing fine...

From the top of Mark's hill you may be able to see what comes next in your redemption...

The grace of forgiveness which is given by God to you...

and in time by your husband to you...

and finally you give yourself.

You're doing great, remember V's great words of patience.

You're getting there just like Mrs.Flint did...

She thought she would NEVER get there...

but she did.

God bless you and your family.

Jim

Thank you LG and Jim.

I know that's not all you've got...

Deep breath...

On your fantastic thread, Mark, titled "Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers"...

Question 1:

You wrote:
Here's the thing... I have close friends that I made over the last 6 years and FOM was a part of this group of friends. I've mentioned this on my thread before, I believe. (I was a client of the company where FOM worked for 4 years before that so I've known FOM or known of FOM for almost 10 years.) I have a lot of great memories of these friends together and I am still pretty close with many even though we live in different parts of the country.

Anyway...

Whenever I recall anything having to do with any of these nice people over the last several years, invariably, FOM is also a part of those memories. This means that associating negative things to the FOM also means taking away the good that might have come from an event that I was recalling. Associating negative thoughts with FOM as an individual memory that only involved him and me is getting easier. But, for example, thinking of a baseball game a bunch of us went to before the A, is a great memory with 10 of us having a great evening out -- including my H. Because FOM was there, does this memory have to be erased? Because that means erasing the fun I had with those other 8 people who are friends of mine.

How do drive past the beach and have a memory of an event with about 30 of us and not also remember FOM who was right there during that event? How do I not think of the BBQ and awesome volleyball game we had and not think of FOM who was there as a friend and co-worker and not as my OM?

Or those many many conference calls? Or the manager dinners or the lunches at our friend's house or client business trips or the pool tournaments or the weddings?...

When I think of my social life pre-A over the last several years with many great people, FOM has either a direct or indirect association with many of those events and with those people. How do I turn on negative thoughts for the FOM without turning on negative thoughts about the others who were also involved? How do I remove FOM from the play-backs? Or... How do I NOT think about my social and professional life from the last 6 years all because the FOM played a role in both?

Question 2:

What if the memories of the past with H aren't necessarily favorable? Certainly very few that have been spectacular. What if this FWW isn't suppressing the many good memories but indeed it's that she can't easily find them?

Do H and I have good memories? Heck ya. Many great ones. But many of them are in the long ago past -- as in 6, 7, 8 years ago and longer. There are good memories in the last few years, but the bad or uncomfortable ones either outnumber the good or seem to be more of the ones I recall. We've just been going along with few highs for a long time.

The last 5+ months have been good in that they're better then the previous recent years, but for understandable reasons, they haven't been great. The complete honesty has made things much better. And it's like the tragedy that I've brought upon us has awaken my H and he's trying to be better. But he's self-admittedly not committed to our relationship so he's not doing much to fulfill my ENs in that he doesn't seem to care what they are. And he's not working on recovery from what I see. (And I know this could be an unfair assumption.)

H is saying thank you to me and helping more around the house. He's going through some of the motions that he thinks I might appreciate, but he's doesn't seem to be enjoying it much. So where the actions are more than they were the previous years, the lack-of-passion behind them remains the same. I initiate the hugs. I initiate creating social events. I initiate the dates. I initiate the kisses -- I mean the pecks.

This is not new post D-day. This is how it's been for quite some time. H is not completely non-participatory and he does initiate some things. Trips, for example -- though I usually end up planning them and making most of the arrangments. He will, for example, make me a drink or occasionally help me with laundry if I'm folding it in front of the TV. But I really want to be the one for him. And I haven't KNOWN that I am for so very long.

Right after D-day H initiated SF intimacy a lot and the hyper-bonding was out-of-sight. But the last month it's been all me trying to get the SF going. And unfortantely, he is turning me down more and more. (It's been 2 weeks!)

I'm trying hard to drum up those put-a-smile-on-your-face memories and associations, but more often than not I'm having to go way back and it's hard to put those into today's context. I don't want to get by on long-ago memories. I want positive, current triggers about my H from today.

So tell me... 1.) How do I remove FOM from my positive memories from the last 6 years of which he was a part of as a friend; and 2.) how do I bring those hard-to-uncover or few recent good associations with my H into the present so that I have more and more positive recent memories and triggers with H?

Great... I have a reputation?

In fact, I have a lot more. (Surprised?) A lot of self-reflection and prayer these last few days and a lot of help from some very close friends and people whom I respect immensely. Some realizations that I think will help me going forward. I want to share, but have to wait. I have an 8-year-old sleep-over birthday party to get ready for. Five fun-loving little boys will be desending shortly. Gotta go get the pinata, pizza, cake, Advil...

L4,

I could probably give you a bunch of disjointed mindless stuff while I'm still at work, but I think I'll wait for later if my wife is ready to go to sleep by the time I get home and if not, I'll try tomorrow while I'm at work again...

For now something to think about:

1) Unless you can find a way for those memories to not include OM you might have to get rid of them all together. Just like you lost the ability to have friendship with OM by having an affair, you lost the ability to fondly remember those fun times that included him pre-A because they will trigger you to remember him during the affair. Can't really selectively erase folks from our memories very easily.

My wife's OM was the neighbor of her step mother. He lives in a town where we once considered retirement. He works with a friend she made while taking care of SM's house while she was on active duty. Her father's grave is a couple miles down the road from OM's house. We used to attend the free Oakridge Boys concert at the KY state fair every year because it always falls on or near our anniversary.

She can't go visit her step mom any more. We don't go to KY for the fair any more. She hasn't visited her father's grave in three years. She hasn't seen her friends from KY in almost three years. She hasn't attended the church where we once considered going if we moved there and all of those friends she made over a two or three year period are gone. We can't walk together around the 9 acre property where her father and step mother talked about letting us build a house so we could move there to be with them...

All consequences of the affair. Not only did she give up a lot of memories, but she gave up a lot of new possibilities for memories. And just so you realize, I gave up a bunch too because I have forever shut the door on retirement in KY or vacationing in KY or visiting KY to see MY friends as well.

It cost her company too. They lost a lucrative rather large customer because my wife can no longer go to that area to spend the night for business alone and she was the one who landed the customer. So even the president of a large national corporation had to be told of the affair as well...

Dr Harley suggests that after an affair we might have to change jobs or even move out of an area we love in order to rebuild the marriage. That is what is at stake here, recovery from the affair and building a new marriage that will make you both happy. What price is the marriage you always dreamed of really worth?

2)So why do they have to be within the last week or something?...I mean THAT is what recovery is all about, rebuilding the relationship so that it is BETTER than before...

You have the recent memories of that hysterical bonding period. You have good or even great memories of 6, 7, 8, 10 years ago. You even have a few times within the past few weeks that you were ready to take on the world because of what happened with your H...

Use THOSE memories as you build NEW ones.

I'll check back later if I get time. This little bit has taken me an hour and change...

Mark

L4, I understand what you are saying. Let me ask you this. Do you think it would have helped tremendously if your husband had changed his behavior and followed Plan A to the T after d-day ?

As to how do you remove FOM from your memories...just the sheer fact how much your involvement with him caused so much destruction to your husband and your family. Isnt that good enough ? Honestly, what else, apart from time, do you think you need to disassociate yourself from the OM ? Do you love yourself ? Have you forgiven yourself for what you have done ? How about shifting the focus back on you and NOT depending on others (least of all OM) for your needs ?


L4, it underlines that importance of BOTH spouses working together to turn a marriage into a GREAT one. I think you are doing great in bringing it back on track but the need is for you both to turn it around.

Thank you, Mark and Optin. I will reply when I have more time.

I have sacrified, as I should, and will do more as needed. I deserve my consequences and know they will continue to come.

I don't believe my H would sacrifice for us. He has not asked me what I need to heal. He hasn't asked me what I need to rebuild this M. I haven't shared my wishes for a stronger M because Dr. H said my H needs to heal from my cheating before we can work on the M. So I've been holding my toungue, hoping to see signs that H wants to have a good M. I'm not seeing that. H appears to be simply existing as a partner in the home.

But both have to want to rebuild it, don't they? Or at least both have to fake it. Right?

Yes, there are new good memories. There are also memories of his continued ambilvalence for me, his IBs, his DJs, and occasional cold-heartedness. I try to focus on only the good. It can be hard. And while I don't know this, H doesn't seem to be retaining memories of my recent good. He is still focusing on the bad of last year.

Yes. Very much. Even following it just to the L would help. He did unknowingly do quite a bit of Plan-Aing immedately after. But the last two months the conscious or unconscious Plan-A type of behaviors have dropped a lot.

Time. Commitment from H to want to try to work on M. Distractions. Me focusing on my blessings, not my past that I can't change.

Depends on the day.

No. (Sorry, Jim.) Working on it, though.

I had some clarity about this very thing last week, optin, that I'll share momentarily.

Participation in this recovery is pretty one-sided. This opinion is based on what I'm experiencing. I don't know what H may be doing privately.