I remember you saying it. It is a rather odd statement and technically unhealthy in my opinion. Healthy people have boundaries for themselves and what they will accept from others.

The current relationship I'm in is a very good one. It was soo weird because after my abusive one, I spent so much energy practicing them, learning how to be strong... learning how to spot manipulation. When I first got into this current relationship I still had my guard up and I did make my boundaries known. I was surprised when she respected them and made no attempt to tear them down. I think it was at the 4 month mark that I was like "WOW! All this energy I spent practicing how to keep up these wall of protection... it's almost as-if I don't need those skills when dealing with her! It's safe to relate to her without my guard up!

We both apologize after an argument; we both have each-other's best interest at heart; we uplift each-other" The relationship is almost effort-less. I don't know if you'd call it shared values or that we just kind of set down the rules early and have been respectful about not crossing over them. But the result is that there is harmony and not a constant clashing and having to focus on boundaries.

So personally I think it is technically inaccurate to say that good relationships don't have boundaries. Rather, good relationships don't require having to focus on boundaries. You don't have to constantly pull them out or use them as shields-- so it feels as-if they don't even exist because you don't have to think about them.

And to go a bit further, I think when you realize that you are truly working with a safe person, then it's even safe to make an exception to the rule once in a while because you trust that they aren't going to try and take a mile if you give them an inch. There's at least one time that I can think of where I told her that she earned 1 day of crossing that boundary seeing as she was so dependable and had respected my boundary for the rest of the year. So I gave her permission (before and not after) to cross that boundary in that moment. So that would be an example of being able to ease up on a boundary because the person has proven that they are safe.

Back in the day, someone said something super meaningful to me. It was that "Plan A and Plan B don't mix; you have to pick one or the other and go with it".

It sounds like we agree that boundaries are the way to go for cases of abuse and since boundaries are a Plan B concept, that's why I get upset when I see people giving Plan A advice to people in abusive relationships.

And to address a previous poster about how abuse is grey. I know not all people agree but I say lies are the ultimate litmus test to track down who (if not both) is the abusive one. The victim will often see themselves as a liar too because the abuser will put it in their head that they are just as bad as them-- the abuser usually pre-empts getting accused of things by going on the offensive and accusing the victim of the things which they do. This leads to confusion and the victim getting stuck in circular logic... "I feel lied to; but they think I'm a liar too" "I feel he's controlling; but he says I'm controlling too". So all things become equal in the victim's mind. The victim thinks themselves no better than the abuser; if anything, they will tend to think it's their fault that things are in the shape they are. Best case scenario, the victim recognizes their spouse is dysfunctional but figures themselves equally dysfunctional for having gotten into a relationship with the person. "Everybody's sick" is the common conclusion.

But it is the lies which start and perpetuate this kind of circular thinking and confusion. a pattern of systematic deception helps people sort through the grey. In my book, deception and playing with someone's reality makes a person an abusive person. So things are really not as grey as they seem. If a person lies systematically, they are abusive. By looking for the red flags surrounding lying, you should be able to separate out what at first appears grey.

1. How's the transparency with the finances? Does he make all the money and doles it out to her in very controlled ways that she has no access to it or can't see transactions and blances? Does one make the money but the other takes it away immediately and the maker of the money have no access to it?

2. Is either living a parasitic lifestyle? One working hard and sacrificing and pinching pennies while the other doesn't work and lives comfortable and spends the money carelessly?

3. Is there instance after instance of flirting and red flags that appear like affairs? Unusually high calls to one person? Buying sexy clothes but strangely never bother to show it to you?

4. History of wanting to move a lot and needing to "start over"? Pull you away from family?

All of these are red flags which involve manipulation tactics and INSINCERITY and DISHONESTY which show themselves in these forms. The #1 problem of an abuser is their lying. They may be motivated by fear and control but their #1 weapon and what makes them such a monster is that they are willing to lie to get their way.

Even all this is a grey area:


I'm the guilty one here. We shared all finances until he had a breakdown in 2003 or 2004--can't remember exactly when--and I took over the finances, including his business books. He would get so stressed out whenever I brought up money that I eventually took to just telling him what I was doing instead of asking. Then, because that also stressed him out, I just started doing it. Now he's mentally much healthier and I have to admit that I'm very defensive about giving up control of finances and sharing information/transparency. I'm not doing anything underhanded or taking secret vacations or funding secret accounts but it's just another really stupid way of avoiding an argument for me. It's easier to just juggle money when there's not enough, than to sit down with him and talk about it. I know this is wrong and it's an area of accountability that I have promised to improve upon and which I communicated in that email I sent to him.


He's working PT and had been collecting UI. I'm the one using that money way more than he is.


No. Unusually high calls to one person, yes during the EA. No clothes, etc. purchased unless they are for me.


Yes, he wants to move a lot and "start over". Since it was his family we moved away from, even though I wanted to stay, this is debatable. We've never lived near my family, nor would I ever want to. I have reluctantly agreed to each move we've made and he knows and I know and we enthusiastically agree, that it's not working like that this time around. If he moves back to Oregon, we are not going with him unless and until it feels right for me.

Boy, I really lost it today and had a huge AO. I gotta get control of my temper. It doesn't do my stress level any good.

It was all pretty stupid, really. H hates when I volunteer him for stuff so we have agreed that I will check with him before volunteering. DS18's "DI" group needed to rent a trailer to bring their props to the state competition site. They needed an adult to rent the Uhaul and no one was available to pick it up today. I asked H if he could do it--one of the kids' parents had a Toyota Sequoia with a hitch package--and H said 'no problem'. He then proceeds to look up Uhaul and research what kind of trailer on what kind of vehicle, though I'd told him the kids already figured this out. They just needed an adult to pick it up--one who wasn't squeamish about driving a vehicle with the Uhaul in tow.

After he said he'd do it, I hit "reply all" on the email, added his name in and said that he had the ability to do this on Friday.

This AM, he's yelling at me for "volunteering him for something without clearing it with him. He was annoyed because one of team coaches (who is admittedly very overbearing and annoying) is inserting herself into this process and he really didn't want to have to deal with her. He wanted to deal with the dad of another kid who owned the Sequoia.

Anyway, long story short, I told him that I did not volunteer him without clearing it with him first. And he said I did, by hitting 'reply all'. We had an argument about it. It was a lot of "you always" and "you nevers" by H and then I lost it and said "obviously, I screw this up every time and you can't teach an old dog new tricks and it's obvious I'll never learn how to commmunicate in a healthy style so what the he//--why even try". And so on. I should have just left the room after the "you always..." started.

Later, I apologized for my outburst. He said "don't worry about it" which in itself aggravates me but I bit my tongue. No apology from him which also bugged me and I should have said something but couldn't figure out what to say in a non-combative way so again I bit my tongue.

I went back through my email and sure enough, I *HAD* emailed JUST HIM to see if he could do this and only AFTER he emailed me back and said 'no problem', did I hit 'reply all'.

So I sent him an email suggesting that from now on, if I want to ask him for his help, I will ask, but leave it up to him to reply to the people wanting the help and I will stay completely out of it.

No response.

And the love bank goes back down into the red....

Our House, is this new information? Anything different from yesterday? This stuff feels so important to resolve in the moment, but is it? Don't you have a long term plan already? So you can just share your O&H, like you did, and let go of the response?

It's hard to let go of the response in the moment. It makes me want him to just leave already because the stress level around here just sucks for me.

I'm trying to work from home today. The kids are home. He's home. I'm trying to get the fallout squared away from my stolen wallet. I'm not getting very much work done. I was looking forward to going to the gym. But that's not happening since he seems to have his day planned out.

If I say anything about wanting an apology in return, I sound naggy and whiny. If I say anything about MY wanting to go do stuff that I'd like to do, I sound whiny and naggy.

What you said makes sense, about him not wanting to work with said woman. So how about sitting down with him and talking about that issue, not the reply all issue, but the avoiding conflict issue?

IIWY, I would also tell him that it irritated you that you extended an olive branch, but what he said makes you feel like he just wants to assume that everything is YOUR fault, and you'd like to claify if that's what he really thinks.

Get down to there more honest discussions, not the blame ones, and you might actually get somewhere.

Just a thought.

ETA:
I have the same thoughts, now that I have resolved to leave if something doesn't change. I want to warn you, however, that what you describe here is lame duck syndrome. Now that you have made a decision that you can live without him, you may be cutting short what you are willing to work on. Does that make sense?

Good thought Cat. And perhaps I'm anticipating the worst but I if I try to talk about extending the olive branch (the apology), he will say that I should just forget about it, it's done, he's fine with it and I will make things worse by rehashing it". I feel like I get shut down when I try to respond and clarify about how I'm feeling. If I do anything like this, it will most likely be in an email which annoys him but then I don't have to get shut down.

I was going to come back in here and edit my response above, to add that when we last talked--he said "yes, I read your email and yes you're right--is that what you wanted to hear?" I didn't want to get dragged into that so I said 'actually I wasn't expecting a response to that email. But I did want to know what your schedule was today so I could figure out my schedule."

So he told me what he was doing and I told him what I was doing and of course we're not doing anything together and I"m feeling like "so friggin' what" about that. I'm more concerned with selfishly fulfilling my own wishes to get to the gym this afternoon which will now have to wait until 5PM or later--a crappy time for me to work out.

See? I do sound whiny and naggy!

Yes and no. If stuff doesn't change, how can I stay in this marriage? Yet I realize that my mental attitude affects just how much I'm willing to absorb before going down that "let's just split up already" road.

ETA: And I can't be O&H with him about this or he won't go back out to Oregon.

OurHouse, you know, people don't always get along. People stay together unhappy. People separate. People work together again. It's all okay. None of it is being helped with your frustration today. This is the weekend where we are reminded that we are set FREE. None of this has any power over us any more. Hand it over. Let go and Let God. Just for today. I can do for 12 hours what would abhor me if I had to keep up for a lifetime. Dust in the wind. You have plans, and they address today's situation, too. You did what you planned to do today. Good for you! Celebrate, you are even freeer today than yesterday! Let go of the repsonse.


(((OurHouse)))

"Why are you looking for love?
Why are you still searching, as if I'm not enough?
Till where will go, child....
I'll be by your side"

That's when you say - from the strength of the knowledge that you can walk away - 'No I will not ignore this subject. It is important. And the biggest reason marriages fail is that both people don't face the hard stuff - the problems that cause them to resent each other. So I'm not going to just forget about it.'

And don't let him.

Something you said worried me, though. You said you're afraid to deal with such things because you're afraid that he then will not leave and go back home.

OH, that is NOT your concern. If you reach a point where you can't live with him any more, it is HIS problem on where he goes. He may go back home, he may find an apartment near you to be near the kids.

But don't let such things dictate what actions you take, ok?

I don't know if this will help but this is what I've learned in the last year:

1) In healthy marriages (actually any relationship) people have conflicts/arguments. Sometimes frequently. And there is really nothing wrong with that...as long as there is enough credit built up in the love bank to compensate for it (sounds like your love bank stays pretty depleted at this point) and as long as the couple 'reconnects' with an apology or something within a reasonable length of time.

2) We are what we think. I, too, struggle with just wanting to leave every time things get bad with my husband. And it just so happens I still own the house I bought when I moved out (hasn't sold yet), so there's even more incentive because I have a place to go. And withdrawing is one of my major coping mechanisms.

But what I have learned is if I allow myself to be flooded with the thought of leaving when things get to be too much, then I really can not be giving my whole heart to working on the marriage. Does that make sense?

Here's how I've been trying to cope with it. I tell myself I don't need to make a decision to leave right this moment. I tell myself that, realistically, no couple agrees all the time. I tell myself my husband has a right to his feelings. I tell myself even if he is dead wrong, he has a right to his side of the story, etc. etc.

This, by the way, is an exercise from David Burn's Ten days to Self-Esteem book. It is an excellent book about changing the way you perceive things. It actually fits in quite nicely with the theory of DJs. The trick is to learn to not even think a DJ because as long as you think it your spouse will pick up on it. About 95% of communication is non-verbal.

Anyway, I know exactly how you feel. My husband seems very much like yours except we don't have the jobless issue. I still struggle with wanting to leave and not deal with the stress. The only advantage I have over you is I did leave and found out that leaving, being a single parent, brings about a whole different level of stress. I thought because I felt so relaxed when my husband was away (my stress level would go way down) that it would be the same after I left. It wasn't. Trust me, nothing is ever that easy. I did feel an immediate sense of relief but it is was quickly replaced with other stressors that had nothing to do with my husband.

What I'm trying hard to do at the moment is find my center, so to speak, so that my mood doesn't sway back and forth with every encounter with my husband. I think in order to be really emotionally healthy one needs to be centered enough to not be so reactive. One of the reasons I came back to the marriage is I realized I still had a lot of work to do on myself. That is what I am doing now. It's very hard to change long-standing thought patterns.

Cat,I moved this post back here as I didn't want to hijack NITM's thread:


I know you are right. I'm working on being completely honest in a non-LBing way. That is my biggest challenge. And yes, he often gets pissed. If I say I'm upset, or angry, or stressed out because there's too much going on in my mind, often his respnse will be "is *anything* good or is it all bad?" The last time he said this I told him that of all the things he could choose to say in response to me, this was about the most hurtful.

That got rolled eyes and some sighs.

It seems that like Ears' husband, if everything is hunky-dory and I agree with whatever he says, life is good. As soon as I start to voice a differing opinion, life is bad.

And it seems to take me going to the brink of saying "I'm done" for him to respond to me in the way I wish he would have in the first place--a reasurring hug or touch. We had some strong words last night. I was on the couch reading a book; he was watching TV. He just got up and got ready for bed and went to bed. (BTW, he gets FURIOUS when I do that!). So I went in the bedroom and I asked him what was going on. He said 'nothing, you are imagining things again'. And I said "I'm not imagining that you just got up and went to bed without a word to me. What was that all about?"

And he went on about how I'd screwed myself into the ceiling that morning (the earlier argument I posted about and for which I apologized losing my temper) and that I had screwed myself into the ceiling every day for the past 4 days and he was sick of it. I know from experience that if I said "but I haven't screwed myself into the ceiling every day", he would discount it in some way (yes I was, I didn't realize it, I'm changing reality, and so on). So I didn't say anything. I told him that I wished he could have given me a hug or something similar when I'm stressed out instead of yelling at me for being stressed out and he flipped the conversation around on to himself---and pointed out all the things that I don't do when he's trying to talk to me.

At that point I said that I'd given him an out--he was free to go and be single at any time and then 'I'm leaving to sleep on the couch. I can't have this conversation with you."

After a few hours I decided that I was going to sleep in my own bed. And we exchanged a few tense words and then he tried to hug me. So this is when I decided to be honest. LOL

"I don't feel like hugs right now. I want to be left alone."

HIM: Fine. I get it.

This AM, things were better but I am no closer to wanting this to work out if it means doing all the work myself.

" I was on the couch reading a book; he was watching TV. He just got up and got ready for bed and went to bed. (BTW, he gets FURIOUS when I do that!). "

I am sorry, but I do not see why this would make either of you angry. For this to start a big fight tells me that both of you are terribly mentally unstable, insecure, and contentious. Your marriage may be almost over if this tiny thing causes such large fights.

We do this all the time and know we love each other and we are not upset when one of us does this! You sure have strange customs in your marriage. Limiting, strange, distressing, and unloving customs. Maybe saying goodnight tells the other one that they are loved. I am trying to figure it out. Is that the only way either of you feel loved is if the other one acts in certain predictable ways such as "saying goodnight"?

Man I would be done with the fighting behavior, it takes two to fight. Just quit that!

If either me or hubby went to bed without saying anything it would mean there was something wrong. We just don't do that so if hubby hadn't spoken to me or told me there was anything wrong I would be upset with him for not being open with me.

Hi Rosy,

I realized you and I dont agree on much. No problem! Both opinions and points of view are important in order to help people!

I love the differences! We can agree to disagree.

Bubbles, my H and I have actually discussed and POJA'd this very thing. If OH's husband is aware of her feelings on this, and has agreed to be more thoughtful in saying goodnight before retiring, then to NOT do it is an act of hostility.

How is saying this: supposed to be a helpful opinion? I GREATLY disagree that to feel slighted when your spouse, your sleeping partner, goes to bed without a word means you must be mentally unstable. Please watch your labels.

My H says the exact same thing. If I go to bed without telling him, I'm IBing him.

But I agree about not responding.

That's why I said just keep being honest. He can't mess with your FEELINGS.

I guess I meant that if that triggers an all night weapons out fight, then something is very very wrong. If this can trigger a fight, what else can trigger one? Who could live like that!?