Of course he's putting up a good front. He's terrified you're going to kick him out. But not enough to hit rock bottom and ask you how to fix things.

Maybe instead of bringing up the issues, you could bring up potential solutions, like the person who talks about his 'friend' who has all these problems.

"I read the other day that when spouses always end up arguing they can make a change like XYZ, to make sure they never go to bed mad. I think I'd like to try that. What do you think?" Insert whatever you'd like him to hear. He may even be grateful you're showing him how to fix things, as it may not come naturally for him.

Cat, what you're saying makes perfect sense but sometimes I feel like Alice just falling into the rabbit hole. I'll say something like you suggest, thinking to myself that it sounds rational and sane and he will have a huge AO and all of a sudden he's telling me what an awful, demanding, terrible person I am, etc., etc. ,and I'm just reeling from "huh? where did THAT come from?".

So I'm too shell-shocked to implement any of this.

And just like me, it is YOU who has to learn better skills. To be able to say 'I'm sorry you feel that way; good to know. But I still believe XYZ.'

You HAVE to be able to dissociate yourself from his manipulation.

I don't see that happening. Every time I think I have a handle on it and we have a positive outcome, he changes the pattern. Now it's "this conversation is over" after he delivers some DJ, so that if I respond, I'm the nag and the shrew. He has poked fun at my attempts to talk in "I" statements and in a non-threatening way. The other day I was thinking how to phrase something in such a non-DJ way and he jumped in and said "I'm done talking about this".

I'm slowly painting myself into a corner where separation and/or divorce is my best option.

Understandable. But for now let's assume he is not going to stop lobbing grenades at you. What is your plan?

Maybe your plan is to allow the situation to become worse and worse until you become angry and frustrated and unhappy enough to leave him. Many here will argue that is not a wonderful plan, but it is a plan.

Maybe your plan is to wait for a particular time or event and then leave him. Between now and then you plan to ignore him as much as possible. Again, not a plan most MBers would endorse but it is a plan.

But if you want to save your marriage, then as others have said, you need a plan which enables you to learn to deal with his grenades. Yes, maybe eventually to motivate him to stop lobbing them at you. But at first, you need a plan that enables you to function amidst all the explosions.

MB can be such a plan. But first, you have to decide whether you want to learn to deal with the grenades, or if you just want out. Because if you stay shell-shocked, and you continue to allow the grenades to affect you, eventually you will come to hate him for lobbing so many grenades at you. And then it will be too late.

As the others have said, if you want to stay married, first thing is to learn to ignore the grenades. What is your plan for acquiring some earplugs?


Yes, as long as you keep focusing on HIS behavior, that is what you are doing. If you want to develop the patience required to endure his tantrums, then you need to obtain your payoff from your own behavior. Take pride in implementing the MB system. Take pride in improving your own behavior. Forget about whether he reacts well to your changes. That is HIS issue. Yours is to love yourself enough to want to do the right thing.

If he chooses never to improve his behavior, you may eventually decide that staying with him is at odds with your personal integrity. And you will leave. But don't allow his poor behavior to stand in the way of you learning better communication skills.

After all, you are going to need them with the next guy - right? I mean, you don't want to dance this dance again, do you?

OH, you are free, today, OH. You don't need separation or divorce to formalize it. You have boundaries that signal you to protect you from what you don't want. When he says "the conversation is over," this is his signal to you that you are crossing his boundaries, yet you are not respecting his requests, you are getting mad at them. Stop it, OH, the tug of war. Let go of the rope. You can do this.

There will be a time to discuss all of this, when you are both back at State of Intimacy. neither of you are not there today. Focus on the light banter, the RC. State your O&H lightly, and let it go. Hear what he says, repeat it back, because it helps comprehension, and then let it go, without disucssing it further today. Seek to understand, then to be understood.

You guys make it sound so easy. "Just buy earplugs" "Let go of the rope".

Where do I stuff all my anger and resentment? What happens when this evening, perhaps, he's all lovey-dovey like his outburst today never even happened? How do I operate with a love bank so severely in the red?

I've been trying. I think I've been trying really hard to implement MB techniques to see if I can see a path back to intimacy and falling in love. But I can't see it. At all.

You are absolutely right. The mind will shut down on itself and you will become numb if you keep getting poked and just pretend it's not happening and convince yourself it's no big deal. I lived under an enormous amount of stress and stuffed my emotions deep down and towards the end of the relationship had a bit of an eye twitch from the stress. I didn't have it before the relationship and it took about 8 months after the relationship was done to completely go away. Denying your God given emotions and radar is not a good thing. Unchecked stress is a great way to wind up very sick or with cancer. The stress is real and telling you something. Be sure not to ignore it or lie to yourself about how real it is.

You need an outlet for sure. Do you jog? Swim? Walk around the neighborhood? Do you have any alone time for yourself? I think it important that you have a chance a few times a week to get away and get in some exercise or peaceful rest by yourself.

Here's a few ideas:

1. journaling at a coffee shop
2. shop by yourself
3. exercise by yourself or at a gym
4. go take a walk to a park or lake
5. drive up near a dumpster and clean your car out
6. create an adventure for yourself like go to a concert but just listen from the outside without buying a ticket. Or figure out how to get in cheap.
7. make a small grocery list and walk to the grocery store instead of taking the car.
8. Run along the beach if you have one

You don't have to stuff your anger or allow yourself to go numb. In fact, that's the worst thing you can do.

MB techniques are wonderful, I recommend this site to people all the time. It is, by far, the best program I have seen. HOWEVER, because of your husband's personality and your own issues with conflict avoidance you might need to get some additional counseling with someone who can help you develop some good assertiveness skills and internal boundaries, so that you can feel your feelings, express them appropriately but also learn how to detach from the outcome and problem solve when needed. I found MBers was not enough in my situation.

Holdingontoit got it eactly right.



If you leave before you have a chance to acquire the right set of skills, your chances are very high that you will end up in a similar 'dance' in your next relationship. The next person might outwardly seem very different from your husband but until you change your own behavior you will tend to attract and be attracted to men with the same set of issues.

OH, I was very much where you are when I left my husband. I was so angry and withdrawn I couldn't see straight. I'm not suggesting that you don't leave because I think sometimes it helps to have a 'time-out'. But we were very smart about it. No dating during the separation. No battles over splitting assets and we agreed to 50/50% custody.

What I learned once we separated was the anger had been covering up my love for him and once I got away and the stress level went down, I realized that I really didn't want to end the marriage.

So back to the marriage I went, only to discover that things weren't going to change very quickly, maybe not at all. I hit rock-bottom last fall (seriously considered, for one horrifying weekend, ending my life I was so depressed) and asked our MC if I could start attending the group therapy he holds for women with self-esteem and assertiveness issues.

You see, I was focusing on his behavior non-stop. I still do it more than I should. But now also I spend a lot of time focusing on my stuff. It's not that I'm a bad person or that I was the only one causing the problems in the marriage. But my communication skills and my lack of assertiveness were contributing just as much to our problems as his issues. I know that now. I can see it much more clearly.

So I've been at it for six months. Every week. I've learned a lot but I still have a long way to go. Tonight in group I talked about the exact same thing - my husband's AOs. With all the skills I've acquired I still have a hard time dealing with those AOs. I can't change my husband but I can change myself. The MC is pretty adament that just changing myself will probably change my husband. I am skeptical. BUT I do know this..if I choose to leave again it will not be out of anger or an avoidance technique. It will be because staying with him no longer matches up with my own internal set of values. Or as Holding said 'my personal integrity'.

I do think your husband loves you and is afraid you are going to leave. He's communicating it in a very unhealthy way but I see it in the the things he says to you. People told me that when I was leaving my husband and I didn't believe it and couldn't see it. I can see it now. Doesn't make some of his behavior acceptable but it is there.

One of the things I've learned about anger is it really a 'cover' for all sorts of other emotions that we have a hard time communicating. Like anxiety, hurt, shame, frustration, worry, etc. I think you and your husband are both feeling a lot of these emotions (him- anxiety and shame about the job issue, you hurt about the EAs and anxiety about his drinking, money) and those emotions tend manifest themselves as anger.

Unfortunately, anger is the hardest emotion to deal with and people tend to get very defensive when faced with an angry spouse. So what do we do....we get angry back at them and then it starts...no one is talking about their hurt, shame, pain but only how 'if it weren't for you, things would be perfect'....

OH, I know how confused and frustrated you must be feeling. Been there, done that, still dealing with it. My suggestion would be to find a local counselor to help you sort this thing out and make the best decision for you and your children. Good luck.

OH,

Change the age and context of slamming doors to sooth your feelings.

He slams a door to vent his frustration physically, but what might he be doing subconsciously?

It would be a disrespectful judgment for YOU to name it, but respond as if it were a two year old tantrum and ignore it - he has a choice.

To escalate. Or to calm himself down and find another way to get you to engage.

If you ignore bad behavior, the same as you would a child and catch him doing the behaviors you want to see coming from him and admire him for controlling himself in a frustrating situation, you don't make any more withdrawls by reacting to his bad stuff - and you make deposits by responding to his good stuff.

Because you have no money to jump right out of your marriage on a whim, you must be strategic about earning your way out of your marriage - figuratively and literally.

For example, he's as good as anybody out there to practice your own brand of mature action vs immature reactions. See - if you react to his temper with anything but a pre-chosen response, you have growing to do.

Move your buttons, because he's aware you are fighting to make changes. And he pushes those buttons to get you back engaged as you used to so he can go "See - you haven't changed a bit".

Time to move those buttons and change the rules!

You're not listening to me. "I'm the nag and the shrew" is HIM telling YOU how to feel.

He has no right to do that. Only you do.
Him:You're being a nag.
You: That's interesting that you see me that way any time I mention something unpleasant.
Him: Well, you shouldn't bring it up, then you wouldn't be a nag.
You: That's fascinating. I can't imagine how to ever resolve a problem if you don't talk about it, so I'd love to hear your ideas on that.
Him: See? You just keep pushing. You're such a witch!
You: Yeah, I can see how it's making you so uncomfortable that you want to guilt me into not pursuing. But we can't survive without finding answers. So how do you think we can do that?
Him: Shut up!
You: I can see you're hurting. I wish I could solve that for you. But I have to talk about the issues I feel. So how do we resolve this?

You acknowledge him, you don't blame, and you ask him for guidance. Nothing to blame about there.

If you make a concerted effort for a week or two, he will realize you are no longer willing to play the 'game' he's got going to control the situation, and you are not going to shut up. You change so that he changes.

OH, what kind of work have you done on stopping your anger? I see opportunities in your story that are resolveable, but you keep coming back with how you can't get past your anger. Maybe if you focused more on that issue instead of how much you hate your H, the rest would resolve itself.

GREAT replies and thoughts and advice from everyone. Thanks so much.

I see an overriding theme here--no matter if we choose to label his behavior and/or him 'abusive' or not, it still comes down to a matter of ME enforcing MY boundaries and ME learning and implementing GOOD communication skills. Right? Also ME learning how to deal with my anger in a positive way and as the previous poster said "move my buttons" (I love that!).

I took some advice last night and focused on plan Aing the kids. I wasn't disrespectful to H, didn't withdraw from him but I didn't engage him either. I made dinner, we all ate together, we decided to watch Jeopardy! because my youngest loves the show and we sometimes let her watch it as a treat if she doesn't dawdle over dinner. Worked with my oldest son on setting up his UA email account; did some tax stuff (where's LousyGolfer--I have a tax question!!LOL) and some college financial aid stuff while H watched TV and DS15 finished up his homework.

After the kids were settled down for the evening, I got stuff ready for the next day and then *nicely* told H I was going to bed. Didn't ask him to join me but didn't send him any signals not to join me either. To be honest, the last thing I wanted was for him to join me as I was not feeling very loving. I read my book and went to sleep and when I woke up this AM, he was sleeping with his arms wrapped around me. I was still angry and felt like pushing him away but I told myself that was childish. So I waited a few minutes 'til the alarm went off and then got out of bed.

So, I guess I'm not really still angry this AM, but I'm not feeling a whole lot of warm fuzzies, either. I'm just really tired of working so hard to make this work. Several times a day, I think about suggesting we pick one or two 'hot' topics to POJA (not using that exact MB term of course) and I just don't have the energy for what I feel is the inevitable full armament by H.

I probably could use some good group therapy or maybe back to IC, but I quit going to my IC when I just wasn't getting anywhere.

OH, I ask you to go back to StillJM's post on your thread here yesterday, about being willing to accept "do nothing in the meantime" as a response. Like JM, I was also unwilling to "let go of the response" when I got here. I was very afraid that there would not be enough to keep me here, if I simply accepted that my DH wasn't willing to meet my ENs. But I was relieved to find that my choices remained, whether my ENs were being met in my marriage or not.

If last night is a gague, then I think your H does very well when there is no pressure on him, when he truly has the freedom to make choices without repercussions from you. Like DJs and AOs, whether in your head or aloud. It also discusses this dynamic specifically in How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking about it. I am wondering whether this can be part of why Dr. H suggests temporary physical separation of at least a year in a case like this: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067a_qa.html Because it takes a lot of time and building new habits to break that abusive cycle. He also provides advice if the letter writer wants to stay during that time. I encourage you to read that letter, because I see a lot of parallels between that letter and your situation, like the losing your O&H out of fear of starting arguments.

Did he choose UA?

I am angry (or show anger) so seldomly that when I do, my H becomes extra nice to try to make up for whatever. It shocks and scares him because he rarely sees it. I think your H is so used to your anger that all it does is push him away.

When I first got married, and he would upset me, I would cry. Granted, it was an emotion, but it was also my PA attempt at getting what I wanted. H was smarter than that, and after a few years, he no longer reacted to the tears. He saw it so much it no longer fazed him. I think you're at that point with the anger. There are better ways to deal with something, more contstructive ways. Save the anger for when it is needed.

Isn't that why we're all here?

Why would you do that? You two are in no position to discuss anything let alone POJA anything. That can only turn out badly. Just focus on your goals, ok? Eliminate LBs. Meet ENs if you can. Just that.

And I am of the opinion that group therapy will be better because you are accountable to a bunch of people who won't let you get away with crap - kind of like us, only better!

LOL @ group therapy description.

Yes, son chose UA.

I used to cry too. I have no more tears left. Though H is more responsive when I cry.

I notice that he's been closing out his email program when he leaves his computer now. Not that I couldn't simply open it up and read it, but it will automatically download mail from the server if I do that and he'll know I was on there. I don't take this as he has anything to hide re: EAs--I do peek when it's open and can see the list of senders. But like me (who also closes my password-protected email acct when I leave) I suspect that he's venting to some friends and he'd rather not have me read what he's saying. I respect that. I feel the same way, obviously, or I wouldn't shut down my windows when I leave.

The resentment over secrets goes to the EA--not what he might be saying to his old college buddy-- and all the secrets he kept (by omission) over the years we were married about the real nature of their relationship previous to me. There was deceit there and his explanation (I knew you didn't like her so I didn't want to make it worse by telling you she was really an old girlfriend AND she still called me occasionally at work) just adds fuel t the fire that he hasn't told me everything yet. When you get your info in bits and pieces it tends to make you suspicious. He gets angry when I approach this--he insists that he has come completely clean. Whatever.

So, are you willing to step out and try this O&H that you promised him in your letter, OH? To let him know it's cool with you if he checks your email, even if he still keeps his closed right now?

OH, I trust your instincts, that there is not reason to trust his honesty with you today. But you can trust yourself to be able to handle whatever today brings. I trust you, OH; I believe in you

ears, that's a great idea! OH, show him you mean business by being the first one to open up! Give him your passwords, or get rid of them. INVITE him to look up your emails. Show him how to be better.

OH, have you ever read Patricia Evan's The Verbally Abusive Relationship? Oh my goodness, it is describing EXACTLY what you are saying here, where you are assuming that both of you want a great relationship together, and acting from that belief, while your partner is not acting from that desire, to get to know you, but rather specifically to One-Up you. I googled it, and it gives you a Google Books preview that allows you to read almost a quarter of the book! A very fast read!

Oh my goodness, girl! What a reason to let go of the rope! To do like Cat says and focus on your goals instead of his responses. Your LBs and meeting the ENs in ways you are enthusiastic about. To drop the negotiations at step 1, as soon as you hear your H's signals that he's not feeling safe for the discussion. To do what growth you can today, while you are choosing to partner with your H right now.

This is what I don't get. Perhaps it's where I really need to apply some effort for growth.

WHY (and to what benefit)is working on LB and meeting ENs? Yes, I know the obvious. No more LBs will mean a more peaceful household. But it's all not going to add up to a more satisfying marriage.

So why am I sitting here spinning my wheels? And how do I process the resentment from having to bend myself to the whim of his moods? (loving when he feels loving, agree with him regardless of what I might think, etc.)