Hi, ST527. Thank you for posting to me.

Please don't ever feel you have to apologize for expressing your opinion to me. DJs and name calling get my ire up -- and I'll let you know this. Honest opinions and straight forward advice are always welcome.

I wonder if anyone is. I might be too needy for anyone to fulfill my ENs.

There are times when he can be kind and unselfish. He was so gentle and caring when I was pregnant with our fist child and after DS was born. And again here after D-day, he has had moments with me that have brought me to my knees. He is also unselfish when it comes to his mother as it should be.

Overall, if I were to put what I interpret on a scale, he tends to be more selfish then unselfish. (And he might just as easily say the same of me.) Your perspective on how this this might affect his ability to forgive me is interesting.

Thanks for your admiration but I know that I can and should do more, which is why I keep posting here.

But no, I can't Plan-A the rest of my life without reciprocation in some form at some time.

He might care but just doesn't show it as I'd like him to. Doesn't mean my way is the right way. It's just it's the right way for me.

Sad to admit that I have been doing a little of this lately.

Awww... I don't want to make anyone sad.

You write better than many of us for whom English is our first language.

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm flattered you felt comfortable speaking up here. Please feel free to jump in at any time.

I was thinking that must have been one heck of a dinner.

It arrived last night.

I pretty much enthusiastically agreed. I wasn't jumping up and down about it, but I did sincerely okay it. I didn't think I owed it to him, no.

Fair.

Understood.

I find this difficult. Family -- including extended family -- is huge for me. My family all the way out to 3rd cousins 4-times removed is close. You do anything for your kin. I know I can count on my brother, aunts, second cousins... H was forced to become independent very early and while he likes family, he doesn't want to lean on them for anything if possible. H wants to sail with only a few people aboard -- very close friends and maybe his brothers. I say everyone should come aboard. The more, the merrier.

I don't really.

I agree.

Question for everyone... What is least effective? Repeated apologies after repeated actions or no apologies? I don't have an opinion and wonder what others think?

I will raise my voice but I'm usually the calm one. This was unlike me. I've never stormed out of a house during a fight. Never. And it was raining outside and I was so upset I didn't grab a coat! Silly L4.

And I change this how?

The last time it was consistent was 8 years ago before and right after DS8 came along. He was very angry but also very caring for the few months post D-day.

Yes. When I was pregnant with DS8.

Tough question. I would hope so. When we got back together in '84 and I used to drive 275 miles one way to see him -- sometimes for just one night. When we were first married. When we moved to L.A. When we moved to S.F. When I was pregnant with both kids, when I changed jobs in '96 and '03 and sought his counsel...

I will. These are very good questions.

Thank you, V.

I wrote something out Sunday that I haven't shared here yet -- kind of a journaling thing about where H and I are. I will share soon, perhaps. Wonder what you wise people think of it.

H has been in a really good mood yesterday and today. He is smiling and very talkative. Not sure what is happening. I ask what's up and he says, "Why?" I tell him he seems pretty upbeat despite his crazy work. He just looks and shrugs. He is itchin' for the weather to clear so he can get on his bike again. I think that thing has lifted his spirits some.

He and Sis got along well last night for DS8's b-day dinner -- quite a few one-on-one conversations between them.

I'm off to a baseball game with Sis and H is dropping me off at the stadium due to losing a vehicle to car trouble, which is very nice of him. I've thanked him a lot for his offer.

I'll see y'all later tonight or tomorrow.

Go Mariners!

I think like you, I love my extended family to bits, minor dysfunctions and all.
I am confused about your family and H's relationship, but I'll get to that later.


I'm chuckling again .... the answer is not to repeat the actions that you know will require an apology. But on the other hand, maybe I am missing something. See what others have to say.


All of this could have been avoided if you ended the conversation when it became unpleasant. Take note of when that happens, not only for you but for your H. Mr.L4 does not know when to end it, so take it upon yourself to end it for both of you. Revisit the issue, if necessary, the next day.

So what do you think happened 8 yrs. ago? Has he talked about this, have you asked him? I don't doubt for a sec. that you would be able to discuss this in a pleasant manner.

Wedding Day? Anniversaries? Any given day since DS8 was born?
If you've not felt like the most important person to him, the one that he would protect with his own life, it is impossible to give yourself completely to your H. I know what I want to say, but I'm not sure how to say it. I need someone to finish this for me. (if they know what I'm talking about, okay I'm confused now and not much help)
If I relate this to my own M, this will sound so bizarre, I feel more important to my H now than I have in years, and at times feel so protected by him. I am feeling closer to him and really want to commit to this R. This to me means changing myself and working with each other, despite our flaws. I see this as a result of me, wife, feeling protected and the most important person to my H.

Ditto with what I said above. I know you can't speak for his feelings but the same holds true for him.

This is great. I thought they didn't get along. You mentioned awhile back that you asked your family not to drop by, and you did not celebrate Thanksgiving??? together, this was due to H.

Can you clear me up?

L4:

The tax season ends soon... "I'll be baaccckkk"

You Husband has issues. Lots...

Your working on yours. That a start...

LG

Oh Halleluja

I know L4 will be most grateful too!

Nasty tax season

I take a day off and try to get in a little R&R time and I come back to this... :MrEEk:

I can't recall which post right now and since I'm still at work I can't go looking for it either, but you mention (I think in reply to V) about how do you change it?

Answer, it is something that H does and not something you do so basically, you can't change it.

Here's the thing, how would you act if you were 100% committed to improving the relationship no matter what he says or does? If you are 100% committed and fix your half, the whole improves by some percentage, based entirely on how much the whole is dysfunctional on your side of the ledger.

H doesn't seem committed...

Could he be waiting to find out by your actions (not just your words) that you are in fact 100% committed to staying with him? If you consider that he began to make changes, examine himself and then found out that the problem was in fact YOUR stuff (Yeah, I know; he had issues, but at the very time he was starting to look inward he found out about the affair).

Not to dwell on the "What ifs?" of the situation, but what if you had not been involved with FOM when he began his journey? You know how you feel when he won’t commit no matter how hard you try? Guess what? That is something he has to deal with every day and will for quite a while yet, I'm afraid.

As a betrayed spouse who did Plan A, let me refresh your thinking here on what Plan A entails...

A BS doing Plan A looks at him/herself to see what is lacking, what is missing, what needs to be changed and then focuses entirely on those things that can be changed, those things under his/her own control. Plan A means meeting whatever ENs the WS allows to be met, fighting resistance every step of the way, seeing very little progress, getting no “thank you” or acknowledgements of even being present most of the time.

They examine themselves to figure out what Love Busters they commit and try to eliminate every single one of them, even those the WS might not consider to be a big issue. They hold their tongue when challenged in order to not have an AO and work hard at eliminating DJs from their own life. They check with the WS on every tiny thing they want to do so that they aren't engaged in IB. They find those annoying habits, like leaving socks on the floor at the end of the day, putting dirty dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher and get rid of them and begin to pick through the never ending pile of laundry on their own.

They start paying attention to the kids that once were the WS's problem most of the time and plan family outings to have a little fun. They plan dinner together only to be stood up or worse, to be abandoned at the table so WS can slip into the bathroom to call OP and tell them they are tied up with “you know who.” They FIX the only part of the marriage under their control (their half) and become the best spouse they can become.

Oh, and they do this while the WS is running off to see OP, planning a new relationship with OP, spending hours on the phone with OP and sneaking around to try to keep the world from knowing that they are seeing OP. The WS ignores the kids for the most part (because time with OP is so precious and so minimal that it has to be grabbed whenever and where ever possible) and almost daily tells the BS “I want a divorce” “I want out” “Nothing you do matters any more because I’m done.”

No commitment from the WS…
Daily rants about how the WS wants a divorce…
Constant Love Busting by the WS…
IB like you can’t believe…
Things that are said that would make a line backer cry…

Just a day in the life of a betrayed spouse in Plan A…

So what are you willing to do to save your marriage? How much is too much to pay, not for having the affair because you can never repay that debt, but for a CHANCE to have a marriage that can be better, no…the BEST you ever imagined. It’s still just a chance, but giving up because of what happened 5 years ago or because you “tried to tell him 3 years ago” or because “he’s angry all the time” or because “he won’t look at himself” will give you NO chance at all...as in NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH, ZERO PROBABILITY.

I’m not trying to beat you up. I’m trying to get you to decide if you are focused on the goal and doing all you can to achieve that goal or if you’re waiting for him to fix something in response to something you have fixed. That is the position of a RENTER and not a BUYER. Buyers fix stuff because it needs to be fixed. Renters only fix what gets them something in return.

How badly do you want your marriage?

What if he never gets better? How long are you willing to work at fixing L4 before you know you’ve done all you can?

You can’t change him. You can only change YOU. If you become the best wife possible, might he follow? If he doesn’t, L4 is still better than when she began… (Think Proverbs 31 here)

Mark
GO CUBS

Brilliant, Mark1952, as usual.

This one grabbed my attention.

I don't know what's in his head. His late return may not be as sinister as wanting you to worry about his safety. There may not be any cruel intent at all. I remember there were times I thought if I got hit by a truck today that H probably wouldn't miss me given he didn't have any concern for me during his A. There were times I'd get lost running errands and not return in the 1 hr I told him...not because I wanted him to worry or to test him...but because I thought I was doing him a favor or was preoccupied with A thoughts and trying to lose myself in whatever I was doing. What should have been a 1 hr trip to the store could easily turn into 3 hrs of running errands all around town to distract myself from thoughts of the A. There were times I simply didn't want to go home because in my mind my home was broken.


That's it right there L4. You know how he felt about going to the show with sis yet you still offered it as a choice and put the onus on him.


Hmmmmmm...sounds familiar.



The problem isn't that you involved sis to purchase the tickets for you if need be. It's that you expected H to sit with her...assuming he didn't want crappy seats. You put him on the spot. How does this sound to you?

L4 to H: We can have really crappy seats or we can sit with my sis (who I KNOW you don't want to sit with) and get great seats. We don't HAVE to sit with sis but just so you know the seats we have now suck. It's up to you.

I have a feeling if H had opted for the nose bleed seats you still would have been mad with him...for picking the crappy seats because all he had to do to get good seats was to sit by sis.



It may not have been the plan but wouldn't YOU have been happy if H had given in and sat with sis? It would have been a win-win for you and a win-loss for H.


No that is not what I'm saying. Asking sis for help isn't the problem. Expecting your H to do X with sis when you know he doesn't want to is the problem. You have said repeatedly you know his feeling about sis but then you counter with...well H did not specifically say "I do not want to sit with your sister" or "Don't involve your sister in our plans even for ticket purchases." To me, it sounds like you are splitting hairs. If sis had bought 2 tickets for you and H I doubt he'd care who bought the tickets so long as he didn't have to sit nearby.

I went to the baseball game yesterday (fantastic game and great outcome) and I am still reveling in the fun. Didn't think I'd have to work the brain so soon today.

But I'll try.

H didn't want to do Thanksgiving this last fall and he didn't want my parents to stop by on two occasions when they were in town. We were still reeling in D-day's shadows and H said he didn't want anyone to have to "be a part of our stink".

H gets along with my family. And they like H.

My family is giving, kind, and protective. They don't get in other people's business, but if you ask for help or if they see injustice, they rally.

My family and friends have witnessed H's treatment of me over the years. They often asked if we were okay, if I was okay. I would brush their concerns aside as H was just tired or sick or whatever and didn't let on how I really felt. But they saw how he talked to me, how quickly he would yell at our kids (especially our little girl), and how he would slink off to his office and play his guitar when they'd stop in. The tension has built up over the years. Everyone's nice to each other and we have good times. However, when he'd say something mean, he'd talk back at me in front of the kids, or mock me during a card game... My family and friends noticed. I know this from two conversations I had with people who are not my family.

A close friend of ours (H's best friend who was in our wedding) once asked me how we were doing. I shared that we weren't doing well and I asked Friend if he had any advice on how I might get H into MC with me as H had been refusing it. Friend said, "I don't think anyone would blame you if you left, L4. I know how H can be and we've (his wife and him) seen how he treats you."

H's father and step-mother stayed a few days with us at our resort condo. Step-mom shared with me recently that when they got home she told H's father that she would not do that again because she couldn't stand to watch over several days how H treated me and our kids. It explained why they stayed with us only once.

I started seeing an IC a year ago and began sharing more with trusted friends and family my concerns for my M. Their suspicons were finally validated. I'm sure that added to the tension.

Also, after I confessed and H kicked me out, I stayed with Sis so she was right there for H's name calling and threats. MBers know this is par for the course from a BS, but Sis was horrified by how he came at me with words. It's hard for her to forget what she's seen over the years and what he said to me then. But she is trying because she knows that I'm trying to save this M. She doesn't understand why I want to, but since I told her I'm committed, she has supported my decision.

L4

Sorry, but I can't help but think your last post served no good purpose in your recovery except to justify your affair. Because, after all, even your loving family saw how horrible he treated you. Example after example of his selfish, controlling, rude and hateful behavior toward you and your children. Who wouldn't be chased into the arms of another man, right?

Your one act of infidelity outweighs a lifetime of such behavior on the part of your H.

Hi L4,

On the ticket thing, I would have felt manipulated and would probably have just said forget the whole thing. I don't know how to convince you of the validity of that perception.

Just reading more of your history I do not know why you are staying married to your H. I would also guess that you and your family/friends have not hidden the general contempt for your H over the years. I can see this feeding into his suggestions that you just leave him. I'm not sure I would want to signup for rebuilding a marriage where the whole extended family thought I was a jerk. At least for me the whole extended family basically piled admiration on me for what I was doing, and it helped get me through hard times.

Has your H told anyone about the two affairs and marriage under false pretenses things? I'm not seeing alot of hope for you guys on this current path so I'm trying to think of a suggestion for something to change.

Here is a scary suggestion. Could you have a discussion with him about D and what that would mean and how it would work? I'm not sure about this suggestion but you seem so stuck in a painful place.

Best

Gabe

Hmm. Not saying that I agree or disagree - just offering up food for thought because I talk about this with my IC.

How are we able to draw a line in the sand that breaking a vow of faithfulness is worse than breaking the vow to love and cherish? Are the vows we speak on our wedding days not all weighted the same? This is not, and should never be, a tit-for-tat situation. I truly wonder about this and am working through it for myself, too.

I asked this, V, because I got to thinking... While I feel my apologies are sincere because once I get it through my thick skull that I've done wrong, I take ownership of my mistakes. I can see -- especially when it comes to H and examples like we're discussing here -- how they are in fact insincere. It doesn't matter how much I mean it, if the sorries come after repeated actions, they become meaningless.

H, however, is the opposite in that he rarely apologizes. And when he does, he tends to add "but" to it which negates the apology he just gave.

So I was wondering if one behavior is worse than the other... The behavior of saying sorry even though she's done it before or the behavior of not saying sorry when an apology is owed.

Noted.

We have. He says it's the pressure of having kids, a mortgage, and a job he hates. He also gets uncomfortable things like sinus infections and chest colds and ear problems. His bad moods or temper he often blamed on his job or his health -- and I was supposed to accept it. He in fact said exactly that. That'd I'd "just have to deal with it."

As I've mentioned, he is much better. The AOs are not like they used to be and when we talk about general life and family stuff he seems to be paying attention to me unlike before.

I'm sure there have been times, V. Probably many times. Christmases are usually special. At a concert last year I felt like a queen. But when you say most important person, while I'm sure I am for my H, he doesn't show it to me -- at least not in a manner where I don't doubt it sometimes. We're different in how we express ourselves.

When we were in MC the counselor asked when I thought the problems started between H and me. I was able to peg it to just shortly after we moved back to the PNW, while I was pregnant with our second. I thought it was because when we moved back home, we had a lot of family and friends support that we didn't have before. I felt like H thought he didn't need to care for me as he did in CA because now there were others who could step in.

Was Sis equally as horrified by you betraying your H with a sexual affair?

I agree 100%, ottert. There is NO reason to have an affair. I should have worked harder on the M or I should have left. And once I started feeling inappropriately for FOM, I should have told H, regardless of how I felt about the M.

You are absolutely right and I have not argued otherwise.

Roo,

I'm guessing that when you had your A, you broke ALL of your vows. It would be interesting if you could honestly say you were loving and cherishing your H, while cheating on him.

BTW, I do think that other behaviors can also be absolutely unacceptable and a good reason for divorce.

Yep. And still is. As are the rest of my family.

They have also forgiven me.