I am lucky to have y'all helping me today. I promise I'm trying to respond to your posts as quickly as I can - but I want to do so after I've invested meaningful thought into them. I'm also working today and have an appointment this afternoon so my time here is sporadic.

Please keep the comments and insight coming and I'll get back to you as I can.

L4,

This particular transgression was not really theirs to forgive. Sometimes your family seems more important than your H in your posts.

Forgiven me for lying to them and not telling them the whole story when I'd talk of my M problems. I mislead them and deceived them as well. And they have forgiven that.

I agree the affair and violating my H and my M are not theirs to forgive.

<Gulp> I'm a-skeerd.

and then...


So which is it? Is H likeable or an ahole?


Then how can H ever do anything right if he's a validated jerk in their eyes?


Has sis or any of these close family members or friends experienced infidelity to your knowledge?

Thank you for your post, Mark. You always make me pause and really think. (Stop with those days off, would ya?)

Perhaps this is the heart of it, Mark. I am 100% committed. Yet last Saturday night and Sunday morning, I was questioning my commitment. I got back on it Sunday afternoon with dinner, kitchen, the kids... Back to 100% committed.

So how do I remain 100% all the time? How do I not get sidetracked and not get discouraged? How do I stay focused and not question what I'm doing when I get low in my Lovebank?

I look at the bigger picture. I come here and vent. I pray. I count my blessings... And these things have worked over and over again. Last Saturday night, however, was the first time since I started this that none of those tricks worked. It was the first time I went to bed saying, "What the heck am I doing here?" Sunday came and during church I found strength to get back on that horse. But what scared me is for about 12 hours, I was questioning my commitment.

But maybe he is and just isn't showing it as I need. He says he's not committing to the M, yet he’ll talk to me about something in the future which I see as a good sign.

I'm lacking in the PA in that I've gained weight, but I truly do think I'm doing everything else possible. I messed up big time with the tickets and my sister thing, and I feel H and I have gotten over that now.

I'm being nice, I'm smiling, I'm off my computer when he's off of his, I'm cooking, cleaning, laughing, offering help, listening, providing SF, initiating SF, asking his opinions, being aware of spending, I'm practicing RH, I'm practicing POJA, I'm avoiding LBs as best I can, I let him talk... I screwed up big time with the sister involvement but otherwise have picked him over my family. I've mentioned this before but because H won't take the ENQ, I may be missing something. BH's out there... What else can I be doing to show I'm 100% committed?

I do consider this, Mark. I am responsible for derailing H's self-discovery train. Is there anything I can do to get it back on the tracks beyond showing my commitment to him and our M?

I wasn't involved with FOM when he began his journey. The A had been over for a few months and NC had been in place for over 2 months when we first got into MC. His changes began with MC last September.

Thank you for this refresher.

I've been doing my own FWW version of Plan A, as you suggested many months ago, Mark. And I know it's helped the M and certainly is helping me. When BSs Plan A, they know what they are up against. They know there is another person. They have the WS communicating to them who/what the enemy is. The enemy in my case is H’s non-existent trust and that he doesn't love me.

When the WS ends the A, the BS knows they've won that first battle. And when the WW says they want to commit to the M, there is another battle won. Then the WW and the BS do MB or MC or something together and that's another battle won.

When will I know if I've won any battles? What should I look for? I don't have these markers that BSs have to qualify their efforts. I'm not whining here. I'm asking for insight on what I can look for to see if H is coming along with me or not. He’s here, but anything else? (Not sure I'm wording this correctly.)

I will do anything. Then Saturday night came and for a bit there, I gave up. That worried me.

But eventually, Mark, he will have to make changes if we're to have the BEST M I ever imagined. I'm not doing what I'm doing in hopes of tit for tat. I'm doing what I'm doing because I owe it to H and my family to do what I can to help H heal from my devastating actions. I'm doing it because I do want to save my M and be married to H forever. But I also know I won't be able to keep this up forever if he doesn't eventually start filling my lovebank.

Badly. So badly. And I want my M to be filled with love, consideration, respect, trust, honesty, intimacy, and laughs.

I think I can work for a long time. But then Saturday happened and I got scared by my doubts.

I dunno. I hope so.

I believe this. I know that I'm already a better person than I was and I also know I have more room to improve.

Thank you, Mark.

This makes sense. And I'm sorry you felt this way, b_r.

Unfair.

I understand why you say this, but it's not true. I don't have a problem with bad seats very often. I saw this same band last fall and had just as bad seats. Still had a blast.

I promise, I swear, I truly do mean this... I was not expecting or hoping H would say yes to Sis' offer. If he said yes, it would mean me having to be extra nice and buffering between the two which would have meant work for me. If he said no, I'm cool with being in crappy seats as long as the people behind me don't mind me standing and dancing throughout the show.

It does to me too.

I did wrong. I should not have involved Sis. The end.

Now do I bring it up again and apologize for once again doing something that displeases him? Or do I let it go? H has been in such a good mood these last few days that I don't want to ruffle feathers. But I believe I probably owe him that I understand Saturday night was my fault.

Hi, 6yearsleft.

Consider me convinced. About 15 posts and 36-hours ago.

Why?

My parents bend over backwards for H, our family and me. He is welcome in their home. H golfs with my dad, stays with my folks when he's in their town even without me, he calls my dad for advice... They do get along. But when they've witnessed his AOs toward our kids or me, they get upset. They've never said anything to him and let us keep our business our business, but yes. I'm sure H has picked up their disapproval as to how H handles some things.

They don't. My younger sister is probably the most protective and watchful of our relationship, but my brother, my aunts and uncles, my cousins... When we're all hanging out, H can be the life of the party.

My parents both contacted H after my confession to check on him. My father spoke with H a few times one-on-one. They support H and our M. However, if they believe H is doing wrong by me, they take my side.

Yes. His family knows and his three best friends and their wives know. H knows I've told all of my immediate family except for my brother (he knows we're having M problems, but doesn't know about my betrayals), my three close girlfriends, my pastor, and all of you.

Suggestions are welcome and encouraged.

I don't know. I've brought up D one time -- about two or three months ago when I was in a low place. And I did so in the context that I thought it'd be best for H. Otherwise, he's the one who has brought it up. And usually when he's angry.

My place is better today. Not as painful as last week was. But yes, I'd like to see movement if possible. However, I must practice patience.

Patience.

Patience.

L4, these are some of your responses to Mark. You know what, if someone didn't know your history, they would think these words were spoken by a BS.

BS's lovebank gets low, it's hard to let your needs be met when there is a wall up.




Again a BS could feel like they are doing all of this and yet not feel like they getting anything back.

Same rollercoaster ride.

BS's have many doubts, different one each day.

Bottom line is that these words could have easily come from Mr. L4's mouth, a BS.



My thinking is fairly simple in nature, but that works for me. (although my H would argue 'simple' aspect)

A new BS feels like they are at the bottom of the pile, last in line, a slug .... not even close to feeling important, let alone the most important person in their WS's life.

A new BS feels violated, ashamed, humiliated and devastated, not a bit protected by their WS.

I'm going back to my simple theory of 'most important person to each other' and 'feeling totally protected', like a child does with a parent.

While EN's need to be met to stay in love, the two things I said above must be felt by a BS in order for any sincere reciprocation to the WS. And actually vice versa, but the BS must feel it first.

In my own case, much of this has come through actions, not words.

L4,

I asked if you should stay in the marriage because it seems you have spent so much of the time unhappy. I do realize that this is mostly a place to talk about the bad stuff so it can look one sided. That is why I asked.

Some of the things you have written say to me that your H does not feel loved or really wanted. He also seems to see himself as the bad guy in your eyes and the eyes of your family as well.

I have a couple of questions for you

1) Why have you left one brother in the dark regarding the A's etc?

2) Do you know what kind of advice your father gave to your H? He is your father after all , I'm wondering if he discussed the possibility of D with your H? As a dad I would not touch a conversation like this with a child-inlaw because I would be biased.

What did your H say when you discussed D in the past? I'm thinking he may not have a realistic picture of what it would mean. I definitely had a totally different picture of what D would look like than the reality. I am so very much happier divorced but my case is on the fringe of normal behavior from a mother.

H is much better now. He is likeable and for me even loveable. H can be a lot of fun and kind. When he is in full Daddy mode, he’s adorable. And when he wants to make me feel special, he succeeds.

When H is in a mood though, and when he wants to sting you or hurt you, he can be really mean. He is quick witted and can take his sarcasm to a hurtful level. He often sees the negative in situations then he goes more negative from there. Also, because he is more of a private person, people may interpret his not getting involved as selfishness.

How can I explain this, how H and I (and members of my family) are different...

On the way to the game yesterday, a stoplight turned green but H couldn't go because a woman on a scooter cart -- those wheeled things disabled people use to get around -- was still in the crosswalk. H started complaining about how this person was preventing him from going -- for all of 8 seconds. I said, "It could be worse." H said, "How's that?" I said, "You could be that person, wheelchair bound." H said, "But then I'd be able to make people wait for me and do whatever I want." I looked at him and said, "Seriously? You'd rather be confined to a wheelchair in order to make people wait for you at a stoplight then be able-bodied and go wherever you want whenever you want?" H said, "It'd be nice to have people wait for me." So he didn't answer yes or no, but his being held up for a few seconds by a disabled person became a little thing that stuck in his craw. I shut my mouth as he kept talking about how that person probably drives on the roads wherever she wants disregarding cars and traffic laws…

Another example:

DD5 wanted to dance for us Monday night for DS8’s b-day – H, DD8, Sis, and me. I put on her 5-minute song. She was so pretty, moving to and interpreting the music. H walked over to his guitar during her performance and started plucking quietly on the strings. I shot him a look to stop. He kept playing quietly. I thought it was rude and asked him to stop. He did it again and I asked him to, “Come on, Honey. Please stop.” It was distracting for us watching and I thought showed DD5 that she didn’t deserve his full attention.

Finally:

My mom called this morning. She is helping a blind friend with transportation to visit this blind friend's friend who has suffered a stroke and is being cared for near H's and my town. Mom called to ask if they could spend the night because blind friend needs to be back tomorrow morning when tests are run on her sick friend. I would gladly open my home to assist my mom and blind friend. Even if Mom wasn't with her, I would open my home for blind friend. We have the room and the beds to do this. (Even if we didn't, I'd make it work somehow.) H, however, doesn't want to have to deal with working this out. He said Mom is welcome, but he's not comfortable with blind friend. (H knows blind friend as she's been a friend of my family's for 40 years.) H said they should stay at a hotel. So I called Mom back and said they can't stay here.

H and I were raised differently. I’m more of a what's mine is ours person while H more often believes what's his is his. These three examples are not behaviors of an ahole. They aren’t reasons to not like someone. But they are examples of how, H and I see things and people differently.

He can do right. And often does. He reacts to and sees things differently than they sometimes do.

Sis has been betrayed. I don't know of anyone else in my immediate family. (Extended, yes.) H's family has been affected directly. His father, mother, and brother have all had affairs that I know of.

Thank you for your simple advice, V. Simple and logical. It makes sense.

Point taken. I think that for a while (the first few months) that I was still loving him but that didn't last long. I understand. If I was that unhappy, I should have spoken louder for longer or left.

Thank you..

You are getting most of the bad stuff. I share the bad stuff because that's where I need help. I'm not sharing all of the good stuff. We've been together about 25 years and there has been tons of good stuff. Unfortunately, the good stuff is more heavily weighted in the first part of our R while the bad is more recent. I've been unhappy more recently and H knows this. Because I would tell him so. But these last few months have been better. I know I'm trying and H being here is a sign of trying too, isn't it? Maybe we can turn things around and be like we were back in the day? I don't know if we can without H getting help, but who am I to know. I can only try to be the best L4 and do the best I can by H.

I understand, considering what I did. But this makes me so sad. How can I change this? What more can I do? I ask him all the time how I can help him. I shower him with hugs and tell him how handsome he is (because he is), how great he smells, how smart he is, what a great father he is... I check on how he's doing throughout the day, I text him, I ask for his input on my work, I tell him what I'm thinking about, I ask his opinions, I thank him for providing for our family...

What am I doing wrong then, 6YL? The thing with Sis is very clear and I won't be doing that again. So what else? I can't control my family so I won't address that, but anything else that I should be doing?

Oh, boy. It's complicated. I love my brother and I know he loves me. I get along with him better than my other two sisters as I am the consumate peace-maker. But he and I are not close, he and H have virtually no relationship, and Bro and I and are polar opposites on some issues. (I was an attendant in my sister's commitment ceremony while brother did not attend, for example.) People with whom I'm closest -- including H -- all felt it best not to tell Brother. I will tell Bro in a heartbeat if H asks me to.

I don't know what advice exactly and don't know if they've ever talked about D. More just letting H know that he is and always will be a member of our family. That whatever H decides to do, Dad will support that decision. Dad too, was shocked and deeply saddened by my news. (Next to my H, the hardest person for me to tell was my Dad. His respect means so much to me.) The only advice I'm aware of is Dad told H to pray and to not make any quick decisions if he can help it. H was crying both times I was here and they talked. My H said afterward that he's grateful for my father and was glad he spoke with him.

H is very anti-divorce for the kids sake. He came from a broken home. When we discussed D before the A was revealed and we were going through problems, H said that it's the worst thing you can do to a child and he will do whatever he can to make sure his kids stay in an intact home. His parents have made very bad choices and because of those choices, H was forced to fend for himself at an early age. He didn't receive much attention and got no love from his dad and his mom was often distracted by other people or projects. I pointed out that we are not his parents -- that he is involved with his kids and I know we'd both work hard to make sure they know how important they are and how much loved they are.

I'm not an advocate of D, but I've seen situations probably closer to your experience, 6YL. I know people who say it was good that their parents divorced. I mention this to H and H says I can't have an opinion on the matter because I haven't lived through it myself.

I've told H that I will not stay with him if he's staying only for the children. I think being in a home with no love and much resentment between two adults is worse than being in a home with a single parent. But I could be wrong.

I'm not working on a D. I'm working on an M.

L4,

I hear your struggles and I am starting to get a picture of more depth. I've been thinking how can you show your H that he is loved. It is difficult because I am pretty sure you need him for financial support and that can make a man feel used.

You say you are not willing to stay just for the children, but since he clearly will then why not have a conversation about how that would work for you. What would he have to do and how would he have to behave to make that acceptable to you? Right now you have created a situation where he can't tell you that is why he is staying, because you will end the M. Maybe you could compromise on that. It would buy you alot of time to work on the M. Since he is so dedicated to this then he may agree to actually work on things.

In your previous post, I am wondering why you felt it necessary to criticize his grumbling about the crippled lady. Your part of the conversation seems condescending to me. In fact, that whole post seemed a little sanctimonious on your part. You are saying that you are just different but it sure reads like saying that you are just better.

and What is a commitment ceremony?

Roo,

I wasn't trying to beat you up. I was just trying to make that point that part of the reason an A seems especially bad is that you have to break ALL of your vows to have one. And you will probably break them continually for a long time.

Breaking any of the vows is bad, but we are all human. After my W had her A I never really loved her again. That was bad and while I never lied explicitly I left many many things unsaid.

6years

I don't think L4 or any wayward is in a position to demand certain ways for their BS to "behave" that would be "acceptable" to them. A presumptuous, demanding and arrogant attitude is off-putting in any case, but disgusting coming from a wayward.

I understand your point was for L4 to work out an arrangement to keep the marriage together long enough for H to buy into recovery. But I don't think L4 putting forth conditions under which she will stay is a winning strategy.

Ottert,

I think it would represent a major concession from L4 to tell her H that she will stay in the marriage just to raise the children. He is the one who wants that not L4. I think it needs to be discussed since L4's current position could be a road block to an forward movement.

L4,

I'd like to focus a bit, if I might, on the basis of Dr Harley's recovery methods and what makes his methods different than most of the rest.

Almost every MC comes from a clinical background and most have not had much experience in dealing with marital recovery after an affair. They really are individual counselors working with couples rather than real couples counselors in some cases. As a result they tend to focus on the "problems" as they see them and what they see has as much to do with the training they have as with anything that really exists in the relationship. It comes down to the old saying "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

So what most MCs try to do is solve communications problems and respect problems and abuse problems and the other things they have been trained to deal with. While this might eventually lead the couple to communicate better, control anger better, use finances more wisely and all of the stuff, very often the marriage ends before the couple ever reaches that point, especially in cases of infidelity.

The reason for this is really quite simple, the couple has fallen out of love with each other which was the reason they got married to begin with (except for a few rare cases where one manipulated things in order to bring about the marriage and in cases of arranged marriages-which as it turns out can be pretty good by following Dr H's ideas).

But suffice it to say that when a couple is on the verge of divorce especially when adultery has been committed by one or the other or both, the real problem is that they simply don't love each other. Oh, the commitment might be there and the bond might be there and they might even really miss being with each other when apart, but their Love Banks are pretty much depleted. The WS had a pretty empty Love Bank in most cases before the affair and during the affair usually jettisons the LB$ balance of the BS in order to justify the affair. They close the account and just refuse to allow it to come to the forefront in order to not have to consider the BS while engaged in the affair.

And for the BS, an affair will drain your LB pretty quickly. is the ultimate Love Buster and especially for those who had low LB$ balances to begin with, an affair just wipes all of that out. What this leads us to is two people, already at odds over actions that both have Takers that are running the show most of the time. Both operate selfishly rather than from a position of wanting to give to the other.

Now I'm not saying you don't give and only take, but the position is more one of giving in order to get in return rather than giving just to give. So even the giving is a way to accomplish the taking, sort of an attitude of "I scratched yours, now you scratch mine..." or else I'll pout, shout and maybe walk out...

What Dr Harley does that is different than all the rest is that he attempts to restore the LOVE between the marriage partners as his first effort. He wants the Love Bank Balances of both of you at full capacity as fast as possible.

Yes, long standing issues need to be addressed, especially if a repeat affair is to be avoided. And communication skills and negotiating skills need to improve if the marriage is to become better than it was before the affair since if it had been better, the affair might not have happened at all. Even some childhood issues of one or both might need to have time devoted to them in order for the marriage to become the best it can be.

But unless the Love Banks of both H and W are full and running over, none of that stuff will ever matter one bit, because when the divorce is over and they continue in IC for the next ten years or so they will eventually see what they needed to do better but will no longer be together as a couple because they never learned to make each other happy until it was too late.

So Dr Harley seeks to restore both Love Banks to full bore as his first step at recovery. Dealing with problems depletes the Love Bank because it involves doing and saying things that might be hurtful to each other.

Fixing the relationship from the top down, dealing with the biggest problems first almost ensures failure because those will be the things that put the biggest drain on the couple and cause the most conflict between them. And since long term issues that have always been a problem will be the hardest to fix since BOTH are fully entrenched in their positions and will not budge without something to get them to move.

So what to do...

From my T&R Manual thread:

The key to making the whole process work is UA because unless we spend time together we never get to make LB$ deposits. And UA is NEVER to be for the purpose of fixing things. It is to be recreational time only.

Combine UA with killing Love Busters and soon you WANT to start to fix things because you are both Buyers once more and not just Renters waiting for something better to happen before taking the next step they need to take.

The foundation of marriage is romantic love and romantic love is what MB methods strive to create. By applying the MB methods, love is restored and the relationship survives so that fixing it might happen. And while this really only works if both H & W are actively using MB methods, the methods can be implemented by one person in the marriage in order to build the LB$ balance of the other to get them to buy in. This is what Plan A does for the BS; it builds up the LB$ of the WS so that they are willing to commit to reconciliation.

FAL/SIL has a chapter about one partner in a marriage using MB methods to fill the LB$ of the withdrawn partner in order to save a marriage from disaster. Just so you know, the person who leads this effort usually falls short of full intimacy in the end but if the other person has a full LB$ they are usually willing to help top off the LB$ of the one who worked so hard to pull the marriage back from oblivion. Just be aware that this takes way longer than you want it to and even longer than you think it will, even after adjusting for what I just said, the process takes a long time.

My point is to show that you can fill your H's LB$ to a point where he wants to fill yours, not because you trade along the way but because he simply wants to do it. The problem is that his LB$ is right on the threshold of liking you and being indifferent. It needs to move well up the range into a place where it has surpassed the romantic threshold and he WANTS to do things for you and doesn't just do them because he should or knows he should or even just to make you happy because you did something for him. But until he reaches that point there is little reason to try to fix the relationship as far as how it works. Don't worry about communications or that stuff yet. Make him fall so hopelessly in love with you that he will run through walls for you and then he will be so willing to change for you that his actions will amaze you.

So fill his Love Bank (meet his ENs), avoid making withdrawals (avoid Love Busters) and strive to get his Love Bank balance back from the brink. He's there because he wants to be there and for no other reason. He has stayed because he wants to stay. Beyond that, don't worry about why he's there. But his Love Bank is so low that he doesn't WANT to fill yours. He's in full Taker mode. You can get him to work from Giver mode by building up his LB$ balance. Then he will begin to fill YOUR LB$ without you having to ask for it all the time.

Notice I didn't say anything about what he should do. That's because I wasn't talking to him.

Just a refresher for all of us about why MB works when others don't...

Mark

6years

But that is precisely my point. L4 is no position to be making "concessions" or stating under what conditions she will stay in the marriage. The person in the position of power makes "concessions." In this case, that is L4s' husband. I hate to put it in those terms, but L4 gave up any leverage for negotiating when she slept with another man.

If L4 doesn't want to be married, she has the option of divorcing. But a WS doesn't negotiate with their BS. They do whatever their BS needs and they do it for as long as it takes (enduring abuse being an obvious exception.)