Don't get to discouraged WH2LE. I think this is normal to some extent. I think those FWS that truly regret their actions absolutely loathe reliving it in any form or fashion. Focus on I statements and make sure the conversations are about PRESENT issues and not rehashes of the past.

Want2Stay

We will be two years post D-day in May. Our M is better and stronger than it has ever been. Having said that, I am still traumatized and I am not surprised.

I have always taken exception to the term "Recovered." Our M started out brand new D-day. Neither our M or I will ever be the same or even remotely similiar to what it was before. I will never recover. At first, I thought that I would but now I realize that I am a totally different person and that old person is just...gone.

I forgave long ago. Without forgiveness you might as well go straight to D. I don't believe that I will ever trust again. Anyone. I love unconditionally. The fact that we are still together is proof of that but the possibility of betrayal is now a constant, terrifying reality.

I believe that my DH was also forever changed. The disappointment that he has in himself will never go away. I believe that he will spend the rest of his life trying to make it up to me but he can never undo what was done.

God's Blessings,

Say

OK -

Traditionally we've told MBers that they can anticipate at least 2 years to recover.

In fact, it takes longer.
I remember some bad triggers at 4 years.
But now that it is 13 years - I'm hard pressed to really remember how crappy I felt. I remember it the same way I remember the big earthquake. As a historical memory, no longer an emotional memory. I can retell the events of the adultery or the earthquake at no emotional cost to me.

I think it's important that all you 2007'ers know that you are not done healing yet.

Remember that movie with Jack Nicholson when he says:

"What if this is as good as it gets?"

I think that folks at 2 years THINK that is as good as it gets, and it's not too good ! So it scares them.

Don't be scared.

But - if you can push past those times - the trauma does go away. Assuming there is no more adultery in the marriage and that both spouses work their end of the relationship.

I'd noticed a whole bunch of folks who identify themselves as starting recovery in 2007. Folks who seemed to feel they were not doing very well.

You are probably doing fine.

Very well said, Pep! At a little over 7 years post D-day I remember intellectually that those days were dark, but it's like remembering a book I read or a movie I saw. The emotional impact is no longer there. Today, I wouldn't trade DH for anything.

It does just take time, and people who are willing to learn new behaviors.

Well hopefully you are right because i certainly do wonder if this is as good as it gets and if it is, it is no where near good enough for me.

I still have such GREAT sadness and pain and anger i can not imagine it ever going away.

OHHHHHH sure...now you tell us!

Seriously though, I kind of figured placing a time table on recovery was a moot point. Everyone is different. Plus with so many variables how could any prediction be made. It does suck to still have issues after so much time has passed but the best you can do is take it one day at a time.

Thanks for the "Pep" talk! <-----

Want2Stay

YES!!! I still feel traumatized and the 2 year time frame that everyone talks about infuriates me now that I am at the 2 year mark and still feel this way.

So at 2 years the BS's still feel traumatized and the FWS's get to think that everything is fine because they have hit the 2 year mark.

I wonder if more BS's would be less inclined to attempt recovery if everyone said you would feel this way for waaaay longer than 2 years.

I know for me I thought 2 years seemed really long, but somehow doable. Know what I mean?

Yes i know what you mean. I thought well 2 years seems like a long time but i think i can handle 2 years.

I sometimes think i feel worse than when we started now at the two year mark.

I think what is most shocking to the BS at the 2-year mark is that we are thinking...

"So, what did I really get out of this?? A cr*pload of pain that still physically HURTS sometimes, a marginally better marriage, memories and visuals of my spouse having sex with someone else that NEVER go away; that never-ending kicked-in-the-stomach feeling that STILL hits me out of the blue; anger that rears it's ugly head when I am least expecting it, and a minefield of triggers"...just to name a few things.

And for the most part, for their "part" in having an A, the FWS seems to get a better M. Some "consequence"!

From what I have read and learned, FWS's don't suffer with PTSD or triggers the way the BS does...they "seem" to get off fairly easily while WE are the ones left still trying to put our lives back together for 2,3,4, or 5 years...

But reading what Pep wrote gives me hope...I see my FWH trying very, VERY hard to create a better marriage WITH me. I know he loves me, and the hope that our M will continue getting better over the next (?) years keeps me going.

I found your choice of the word "comfortable" almost amusing. It's that dark humor. Like, when you're in the hospital and a nurse comes in and wakes you from a dead sleep and asks, "can we make you more comfortable". And you scream, YA!, if you'd just go away and leave me alone. Or when they say they are going to make you more "comfortable" by sticking this needle in to you........moving on.


My 26 years of continuous sobriety in AA & NA have made it easier for me embrace recovery. The steps that I needed to work through, were nearly second nature. I'm thankful for that. I still remember thinking at 2 years of staying clean and sober that there must be an easier way to do this. I struggled so. The old timers at the meetings always shook there heads, sometimes made fun of me (lovingly, I think) and smiled. They reminded me it's not years, months, or weeks....... but, "One Day At A Time".

Living in the tomorrows and the yesterdays always slowed my recovery way down. But, I seemed to gravitate to that mental condition on a regular basis. Didn't require much effort to get there either.

I found my biggest obstacle in staying clean and sober was overcoming my inability to stay in the here and the now. I struggled to focus on what I needed to do, TODAY. I struggled with planning future events to come, because much to my dismay I would begin planning the outcomes of those same future events as well. I found myself often disappointed when my planned outcomes didn't meet with reality. I began to see that I was setting myself up on a regular bases for being let down because my expectations/fantasies were not realistic. I found myself with one foot in yesterday, then straddling one foot in tomorrow and as a result, pissing all over today.

I did have a realization at about 2 years of staying clean that I no longer seemed to have entire weeks that would go to [censored] like they would in the beginning of recovery. I had practiced staying in the here and the now long enough to only have "bad moments" within my days instead of bad days with a good moment mixed in . That was huge! Then when I stopped allowing these bad moments to rule my thoughts, they became lessened to some rough moments from time to time. It was the one day at a time process unfolding in my life, and it really worked. I had stopped thinking recovery would be a two year event, and accepted that it was a life long process.

For me, dealing with the infidelity has been a very similar experience.

To answer your question Pep, I would say that I am LESS uncomfortable in the "recovery process" than my DW, but just as uncomfortable in different ways.

At times I can see it in her eyes that she questions herself and her decision to be with me. I cannot wish that look away, though I do pray that a time will come that I no longer see that in her eyes. It cuts to the quick seeing the reflection in her eyes, of the man that she sees.

I get the best of both worlds in a way(said w/much sarcasm). A double edged sword, if you will.

I know I'm the cause of the gut wrenching pain my wife feels, and the images and the doubts that swirl around in her head. I know I'm the reason she has so many questions. And I know my answers will never bring true relief to the pain that lies underneath each one of those same questions.

I also get to feel the other edge of the sword, knowing that MY betrayal drove my DW into the arms of another man. I too have images in my mind of an OM & DW that torment me at times, while at the same time the torment of knowing full well that MY betrayal is the reason these images even exist to begin with.

Repentant waywards do NOT get off easy. In many ways, as a FWH, I find myself at a much greater disadvantage in the recovery process than my DW. She found herself able to extend graceful forgiveness to a man that was undeserving, and regretfully I still feel I may forever struggle to forgive that same man.

Wow, an old timer willing to admit that Dr H's two year theory is debunked. Of course we have to keep in mind that he has never been cheated upon.

Only those who have can define that timeline. Not even Dr H.

Live for today, and have vision for your tommorow.

Do not ever give up.

All Blessings,
Jerry

tst i must admit that this post had me in tears for many reasons.

My H and I have been "live for today" kind of people throughout our M and it is a good philosophy to have i think. So many e-mails that i see about spending time with your children instead of working or cleaning the house or whatever. I do not feel regret because we have done those things.

I helped take care of my parents before they passed away instead of doing other "more important" things and i will always treasure every minute of it, they knew how i felt about them and i knew how they felt about me before their deaths. I knew their wishes as to what they wanted done with their bodies and their things. We had many good talks before they died.

But...... (and i am sure you were guessing that)

I also looked forward to a future with my H for as long as we both lived to be together just the 2 of us and grow old together with those vows we made in 1985 still intact and sadly that is not the case.

I still grieve deeply for the loss of those vows and it has somehow changed my outlook on our future. It is like i can not look forward to as long as we both shall live any longer because of those broken vows.

It is as if the A "broke" something inside me and i am not sure if it can ever be "fixed" again.

What theory is that? I don't think I have EVER seen Dr Harley give a guaranteed time line for recovery. The only ones who have given timelines are posters, who gave timelines based on their own experience. If he does give timelines, they are always given as generalizations, not guarantees.

I found a place where he alludes to restoration of respect, but it is stated as generalization based on testimonials; he doesn't ever give some kind of guarantee or a "theory":

Restoration of respect is a good thing.

However .... it is NOT the same thing as no longer experiencing the feeling of trauma.

I too, do not recall Dr Harley giving a time line on when a BS can expect to no longer feel traumatized.

MY POINT is to reassure those currently at the 2-year-mark of recovery ~~~> THIS is NOT as good as it gets.
(assuming no more infidelity and both partners are diligently and sincerely working their end of the the relationship)

TST - Thanks for sharing your AA recovery stuff. You KNOW I just love people who actually work the 12 steps.



Because you are BOTH betrayed spouses.
Take your choice ~~~> 1.I think 2. I theorize 3. I suspect.


Because she questions her ability to actually stop hurting this much.
My answer is ---> KEEP MOVING in the right direction. It takes longer than the forum posters have traditionally told people.



Yes ... keep praying and keep keeping on.



True, your words will never be enough - but your continued efforts WILL. Eventually.



One day at a time, my friend.

Agree on all points. In my marriage, it has improved every year. The state of our marriage today is remarkably better than what it was at 2 years. Even 3 years. I sure can't say that I even derived happiness from my marriage at 2 years, I can say that today without hesitation.

Thanks Jerry for adding to this conversation.


I'm not debunking Dr Harley, but us oldtimers ourselves who have told posters "It takes at least 2 years."


I think this is accurate. Even respected old timers who have never been betrayed, like Just Learning or Arkie, must rely on the experience of others to give a more personal view of a recovery time line.

I started this thread because I think I have done an injustice to those I have told "It takes at least 2 years."

NOW I am saying, it takes L O N G E R ...........

I want to correct my previous mistakes, telling others it takes 2 years. But in order to do this, I needed to ask the 2-year folks what they were experiencing.

[

Repentant waywards do NOT get off easy. In many ways, as a FWH, I find myself at a much greater disadvantage in the recovery process than my DW. She found herself able to extend graceful forgiveness to a man that was undeserving, and regretfully I still feel I may forever struggle to forgive that same man.
[/quote]

I know this thread is for those who began two years ago, and I don't want this to be an out-and-out hijack; but reading the above paragraph struck a chord with me.

This totally describes how my FWH feels. He is repentant and spends all his waking hours trying to win back my trust; however, he has so little self-respect now that when he is away from me for any length of time during the day, he becomes very depressed. He has said that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to forgive himself for betraying me and his own morals.

Actually, this thread is a very helpful road map for the coming year and a half. I too wonder where we will be at the two year mark--together, yes--but I honestly feel that with his love and support, I may be a little farther along that road to recovery at that point than he will be.