The idea is to Plan A -- meeting needs, and no LBs. The Plan A maps a measurable progress and give time limit. And LBs done by you during your Plan A negates that authenticity / sincerity of your efforts to meet ENs. Also, Plan A will not work as fast when the Love Bank is negative.

And since you're changing yourself (for yourself) and doing Plan A, you must also be preparing to be in the position to move to Plan B when Plan A don't work.

The point is you shouldn't be bending yourself to his whims. You need to figure out the person you want to be - not out of fear, not out of anger, not because you want to avoid a fight but the person you, the authentic OH, wants to be and then stay there. No matter what he does. Sounds easy - it's not. At least for me it's one of the most difficult things to do. There's a level of differentiation that an emotionally healthy person has reached that I haven't (but am working on).

The problem is you are allowing his moods to dictate yours. So then you really are at the whim of his moods and it's exhausting! Think of the freedom you would have if you didn't need to react to his every mood!

...And I don't think that trying to meet his ENs and eliminating LBs means you are a puppet on a string. I could be wrong, there are people here who are much more knowledgeable about MB than I am.

I think you have to dig down deep and decide that you want to meet his ENs and avoid the LBs because that's the type of person you are - the type that is loving, even when you don't feel like being loving. That you are the sort of partner who keeps trying and doesn't get in a tit-for-tat mode every time you have a conflict. A partner that can forgive. A partner that is open and honest. A partner that is not afraid to express her emotions and stand up for herself. A partner that can _________fill in the blank with whatever you would like to see in your spouse. If you behave in this manner and he still refuses to work on his stuff, well, then you walk away secure in the knowledge that you did all you could and that you are capable of being a good partner in your next relationship. IMHO, that is the real reason to do this. You might or might not save your marriage but the confidence and the skills you gain in the process are invaluable.

It's one of the main reasons separation and/or divorce sounds so enticing right now.


You are exactly right. And that's the main reason that I came here. Well, the main reason was that I was desperate to improve and save my marriage. But the longer I'm here, the more that goal becomes fluid. I've gone from "I want a healthy marriage" to "I'm going to clean up my side of the street and maybe in the process my marriage will improve" to "I'm just going to work on my issues and be the best that I can be" but now I'm sliding over to "the heck with it all". I've got to step back from that one. And it's not easy.

What's the difference between withdrawing and simply not wanting to be around the person? When H is upset about something, I really don't want to be around him. Mostly, it seems that I invariably get in the way---the 'family dog that gets kicked' syndrome. But even beyond that--it's just not pleasant. Yesterday's AO. Today he had car problems and he's in a snit (understandably--I would be too--but I wouldn't be all snappish to my spouse!). So I'm hiding out in my office. Do I want to be around him this evening? Not right now. And if I chose to be open and honest and say "I don't want to be with you right now", it comes out sounding like a DJ. Or I sound like a beeyatch for not wanting to hang with him and then he gets to blame that on me too.

Well OH, this is the time you get to practice *be still*.

You don't have to be around him or engage him.

Don't hide out or avoid H, simply do your thing and let him engage you.

If it's civil, you participate, if its not civil, then you calmly state, you refuse to argue or fight,but would be more than happy to engage in a civil conversation...

PERIOD!!!

If it's civil,enjoy....smile...be polite...(pretend he is a stranger...it always amazes me how people are so much nicer to people who are nothing to us, yet we blast the very people we should be treating the best above all others)

If's its not civil,then you simply don't engage...if pressed just keep repeating your request...to have a CIVIL conversation....

eventually H will get the message...talk to me respectfully or not at all...

It's also about defining your boundaries, and enforcing them.

If he does an LB, say yelling.
You say, "if you ___, I will do ___" then you do it.

OH, if you don't want to be in the room with him, then do something you want to do in the next room. He'll be happy that you're not DJing him. Think of that 180, be happy, confident, self-assured. That's really the main thing he wants from you. And I think that's the main thing you want for yourself, too, right?

What are your backup plans? If you're not in the mood to be intimate at night, just tell him, you're saving yourself for the morning, because you noticed that's the time you're in the mood. If he flies off the handle, remember what AG said, about remembering something else you wanted to do, and you'll be back in a half an hour or an hour. Even if it's to rearrange your sock drawer.

I know none of these ideas may be what hits the nail on the head for you, they are just a jumping off point, to get you thinking about what you want to make for your backup plans.

Wow, this is exactly what I was going to say! Print it out and learn it, OH!

Hon, he doesn't GET to do anything to you that you don't let him do.

You need a MAJOR mind shift. I think it's because you saw what it was like without him. And divorcing is a decent option, but so is getting some serious, heavy-duty therapy, to help YOU get out of this he said/she said crap. It's doing you no good!

So tell him!

You have every right in the world to not put up with that. But it's not fair to just walk away without telling him WHY you are walking away.

"I don't like being around negativity. I'm going to the library."

"When you say I nag you, I feel like shutting down around you. So I'm going for a walk because I don't want to feel bad."

are those his words or your words?

to say that you don't want to be around him when he is acting like xyz, that is a boundary. . . and that is protecting you. . . and that is acceptable. . and its an adult response to a situation which you didn't create.

You have to differentiate yourself, or self soothe, which means the mantra you repeat to yourself is YOUR mantra, no one elses. All manipulative people want to blame others instead of taking self responsibility for their actions. . . the above boundary is the refusal to ACCEPT a projection of someone else's responsibility onto you. . .

please learn the difference, i know its difficult, but its necessary to stand up for yourself with your boundaries to protect yourself. . .

wiftty

WIFTY: Those are my words. But I'm responding to one of his chief complaints about me being that I don't want to be with him in the evenings. I'm trying to address this by spending time with him in the evenings but more often than not, I just want to be by myself because it's gotten so ugly during the day at some point. I suppose some forum members will tell me to just get over myself and go be with him but it's very very hard and I just can't at some points. It's easier to just create my own time/space for myself. But that's not doing our marriage any good.

The past two nights, I've had migraine headaches. Spots in front of my eyes, nausea, dizziness, pounding head. I don't often get even run-of-the-mill headaches and I think that the stress of all of this is causing these headaches. Last night he was getting ready for bed and I turned off the lights in the family room and laid down on the couch because it was nice and cool in there and very quiet. He came into the room and asked what was wrong so I told him. So he said "well come to bed, you'll feel better". And I said that I didn't want to move just yet, I had just gotten comfortable and to a place where my head didn't pound. So he got pouty and said "fine, I can't help you if you won't come to bed" and marched off to the bedroom.

About 10 minutes later he came back out and said "so are you just going to lay there all night or are you going to do the smart thing and come to bed? Just get up, brush your teeth and come to bed and you'll feel better."

I didn't want to get up but I didn't want to cause a fight so I got up and got into bed. And felt awful about it. I was uncomfortable and he had lit a candle (something we usually do at night) which was flickering and making my headache worse.

So he manipulated, and you caved. Just like I do. I get the exact same stuff. 'I know what's good for you, and if you don't listen to me you are stupid' kind of stuff.

What he did to you was my tapping the foot in bed.

A good place to practice boundaries, even though it's scary. Don't let him 'mad' you into doing something you are not comfortable doing.

Maybe it would help you if you go back and read Why Does He Do That? or one of Patricia Evans' books today.

OurHouse, I know you're trying. How about telling your H what you just told us? They say "a gentle answer turns away wrath." I think if you tell him this earlier in the day, before he starts drinking, he may remember and honor your request in the evening. You could even make a gentle reminder for the room. "Please keep out, healing from migraine inside." If he tells you it's a shame trigger for him that your lifestyle issues are triggering the migraines and he wants to help, maybe you could give him constructive ways to help you, like going over the DD's homework and putting her to bed so you can rest. If he ask for something he wants to do for you specifically, maybe he could make you a nice card to give you when you feel better, or Tivo for you something you missed.

OH, I think my suggestions may be missing the mark, because you aren't responding to me. Though I mean well, I know I may well miss the mark, that they may not be appropriate, but I'm hoping to get you thinking what would be appropriate. That's what brainstorming is for, to help you think of relevant solutions.

Cat, I read "Why Does He Do That" several years ago. I can't remember if I read any of Patricia Evans' books.

I can only read so much. It's all good, it's all good advice, it's great for depth of understanding but it doesn't DO anything for my situation. I guess I've never been very good at sitting and not doing anything. Like a shark, I need to keep moving. LOL So I feel I need to actually DO something in order to make or break this marriage.

Ears, you're not missing the mark. Sometimes I respond to several people at once--sometimes I feel the post needs no overt response. Your advice is always good and welcomed. Please don't stop.

I find myself in a quandary though. I don't want to delve into "relationship talk" but I feel I need to do that in order to be open and honest. Even something as simple as telling him today why I need space at times in the evening (last night's migraine, wanting to be alone because I'm still processing events of the day and/or an argument between us) feels like R-talk and then I'm back to where I started. No R-talk in a 180 or even a Plan A, so I bombed that one. And he'll usually respond with "fine, I get it" or "it's over and done with now, let's not rehash it".

Would it be ok in that situation to say something like 'Thanks for the suggestion, but I really just want to lay here for awhile." Or to suggest something that might help you, like getting a cup of tea or something. I realize that it's unlikely that this will be accepted, but it's honest.

I agree that his attempt was less about actually doing anything for you, but fulfilling his desire to be the H in charge who get's things done. That his thoughts are respected. Maybe it might help to think about what he's really trying to get done there, and feed that need in a different way? Don't know.

And OH, I understand that need to be alone. My W and I would often go to different rooms after the kids went to bed, just out of preference. Of course, now, I really regret that. I think that partly had to do with being tired after a long day, and partly because talking to your S can often take a lot of effort. I could talk to a coworker for an hour straight, but to my W, it was and still is a lot harder. What I say has a much larger impact it seems, so I think more about what I say...and I also care what she thinks.

I hope to get to a point where I am not concerned if she likes what I say, I can just be me fully, and I'm not concerned that I might speak a DJ by mistake.

OH, thanks for that. I'm glad that you find my posts helpful and welcomed. I don't think I would stop unless you asked. Jayne can tell you I'm stubborn persistent thing and tend to keep trying, throwing different things at the wall until something sticks.

One thing reading that excet from Patricia Evan's book reinforced for me is that there is safety in numbers. I knew this already growing up in an abusive home, never to ask for anything unless everyone was there, like at the dinner table. I know that we're trading in survival skills for living skills, but I haven't traded this one in completely yet. I ask H for things when we're one on one, too, but there are still things that I think are better asked at the dinner table. I don't need to go to bed early very often at all anymore, but there are still days where I feel like I've been through the wringer. "Guys, I'm really beat tonight, so I'm going to rest my head after dinner. Can I count on you all to take Lily for a walk and keep an eye her tonight for me?"

OH, the reason I suggested reading it was so that you could remind yourself why he does what he does, and that you don't have to accept it. Kind of a cheerleader to give you more stamina. Clarification. Not to make you feel good so much as to help you see your situation more clearly.

Ears, I agree there's safety in numbers and I've used that tactic myself at times. Good thought.

Dkd, yes you hit the nail on the head. H wants to be the problem solver, solution maker and in this period of extended unemployment, I'm sure it's kicked up a notch because he's feeling less worthy, financially. So that feeds into the "come to bed now" attitude, too.

Often it feels to be that simply being O&H is a love buster. I try to frame my O&H statements in terms of ME, with no DJs or SDs, but often they are not taken in that context and then I feel "whoops, another friggin LB...shame on me." So I will do things like get up and go to bed rather than risk being O&H simply to avoid potential LB behavior.

And that provokes yet another headache.