Hummingbird,<P>Think about this...what are the chances of finding and marrying another man that after being married (8?) years and after two years of being treated badly (by your own admission) would say and mean the things your H recently said to you?<P>You H definetely has his flaws. Anger management being at the top. Difference on children being another. His hobby is a situational problem and a hardship, but with the proper focus on the relationship, I bet that could be worked out to at least a mutually accepted plan. Would it all take work? Yes a tremendous amount of work. Would you be happy? I don't know.<P>Hummingbird, I'm not sure you would be happy in any committed relationship more than a few years. Your search to be filled by an outside source would not allow any long term relationship to thrive.<P>Your need to escape to a fantacy says a lot. Everybody either moves away from pain or toward pleasure. In most will move away from pain is stronger than moving toward pleasure. No one wants to feel pain. <P>If you divorce you may delay the pain and the hard work of committed love and you may find another that for several years will be a tremendous romantic experience. Then it will wear off or something will go wrong. Then you will be faced with pain once again and the desire to escape.<P>Maybe your H was not the perfect choice for you when you made it. But are you sure you are in a position to make a wise choice. I know you think otherwise, but your OM was no prince. He was a manipulative liar and a cheat. Be careful of who you are attracted to, you may get swept off your feet, live happily a few years and then find yourself in a place much worse than you are in now.<P>Regardless of the choice you make about your marriage. You must embark on a growth and learning path, because with your current ideas about love and romance and life, you are headed for certain pain if you head out into the world on your own.<P>But you know what? I think you are up to it. Your counceling, your interaction here and your willingness to read shows you are ready to start on that growth adventure.<P>How are you doing with the books you bought?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Thanks for saying this, FHL. It's exactly what I've been thinking, but you said it more tactfully than I would have. <P>You know, Hum, years ago, my sister told me that she really needed the excitement, the intensity, of a new relationship. I told her then that the only way to have that is to run from guy, to guy, to guy. That kind of "romantic passion" you seem to crave fades out. It always does. And the only way to keep that in your life is to never stay with one person very long. Real life gets in the way. It would with your OM too. Believe me, it would.<P>My sister is about to embark on her third marriage. I wonder what's going to happen to her when real life sets in.<P>Don't forget...in those "romantic" novels you read, the lovers either die (Wuthering Heights) or else you don't really know what happens to them after "and they lived happily ever after."<P>Try to keep that in mind.

D&C -- it's that "happily ever after" that we all want isn't it?

Maybe we need all books to be rewritten something like:<P>And they knew if they relied only on their current intense passion to live happily ever after, that their love would come crashing down like a brick after a few years, a couple of careers, a mortgage and some screaming kids, so they committed themselves to a Policy of Joint Agreement and communicated honestly and openly...always striving to meet the needs of the other. And they went on to live a life together that was able to weather the storms and bask in the sunshine of that life that they created.<P>OK, Dazed...clean it up a little.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I'm going to try to word this the best I can. Everyone please don't get mad .<P>I am scared to death of putting all this time, energy, everything I have into my marriage at this time. I can't decide if I want it to work, if I want to commit definitely. I know, I'm married, I made the decision years ago, but I'm being honest, this is how I feel today. <P>I'm 31 years old and have no children. What if I commit another 5 years to really trying, and still don't feel comfortable having children in this marriage, then I'll be 36 (OK, I feel like my clock is ticking now, what about then?). Then I'll be trying to find someone at 36 wanting a child desparately. Your thinking I'm being selfish, I know. But I want a child. I love children, sometimes I feel so sad because I don't a child. But I also want a child in a loving marriage, I want a child that is conceived from "our" love. <P>What if I wait another 5 years and still don't feel that in-love feeling with him and he still feels "neutral" on the subject (he'll have one for me because he doesn't want to lose me). Is it OK then to have a child anyway, because we are married? Or do I leave then. How much time do I invest?<P>The romance part, is only one of my problems. And it has consumed more of my life recently, I feel because I'm so unhappy. <P>Everyone keeps telling me that with someone else, the everyday life things would change my thinking that things would be so much better. I can understand that the passion would be different, I understand the different stages of love. But all the problems in my marriage, chipped away at that love. So that would happen in another relationship? <P>It's not just the romantic passion I crave but everything combined. I can deal with the hunting, it's everything together. <P>This is what I want from my husband and marriage: <P>Not jealous,<BR>very patient, calm<BR>no temper,<BR>loved my family and treated them with respect<BR>wanted children, <BR>romantic<BR>had an activity together,<BR>Limited his hobby<BR>felt like he was a true companion,<BR>felt (not even that passion), but that closeness with him,<BR>could really talk to him<BR>really listens<BR>Is respectful of me<P>I know these things can be worked on, but sometimes I'm so afraid of not trusting him (I know me talking about trust) or better said not believing that he really can change or if he does it's only temporary.<P>I also realize even if he does these things there's no guarantee that "inlove" feeling will come back. So, because I'm married and made a commitment, I should stay in limbo for how long waiting to see how things works out?

Hum--<P>I probably shouldn't be asking these questions, but...<P>What is stopping you from leaving your husband?<P>What will convince you to stay or leave?<P>What will convince you that you've made the right decision?<P>Are you afraid to leave because you'll be alone?<P>Will you be happier single?<P>Would you be worried about finding someone else to make you happy?<P>Have you thought about meeting someone else and the timeline of dating to marriage?<P>I know for me sometimes the thought of actually leaving my husband scares me to death. I'm so secure in my relationship...he takes care of me. He's my companion. Even though I don't "feel" in love with him, he's my friend and it's good to have him around. It would be hard to be alone. I think he feels the same way at times. It's almost like neither one of us wants to have to make the decision...it would be easier to have the decision made for us.<BR>I'm also terrified to have children with my husband.<P>We went to see the Story of Us last night. It was a good movie, but it got my husband questioning me about if we should stay together or not. It ended up in a fight. At this point I want to stop analyzing everything in my marriage and just go with the flow...I seem to be happier that way. It's not that bad for me, I just have to stop thinking about it so much.<P>BTW...I broke my record today for the most amount of time without contact with the OM...just over 2 weeks! YEAH!!

To go along a little with what Hum is saying:<P>I want to be married to someone who I can look over to when we're sitting around reading or watching the tube or something, and feel contentment with.<P>I want to be married to someone who I can think about with certainty that I'm staying with them the rest of my life.<P>I want to be married to someone who I have no reservations about.<P>This is not about PASSION!! This is about the rest of my life. This is what I've been trying to say for months on this forum. This to me is what "happily ever after" means. I don't care about mortgage and doing the wash and all the mundane things about life. I accept that. I want, repeat, WANT to share those mundane things with someone I love with all my heart. That is my "happily ever after."<P>I am almost fully over the OW at this point. Withdrawal is so minor that I can shove it out of my mind almost as soon as it comes. That doesn't change how I feel. Don't get me wrong, I'm working feverishly to try to get these feelings for my wife, but the trouble is, I've basically been doing that for the last 10 years or so (minus the few months of my emotional attachment for the OW).<P>arrgh... sorry Hum for intruding on your thread, but I'm kinda in the same place you are.<P>--andy

Holly,<P>I have thought of leaving. What it would be like. When he's out hunting and I come home to empty house, I've been thinking "this is what it would be like", and it's not that bad. I'm not as scared I used to be. I'm scared about going through the process of divorcing but I feel afterwards I would be OK. I have my family for support and friends. <P>I feel I would find someone else. I could be wrong. My one friend told me "you know I had good friend who divorced 8 years ago because her husband definitely didn't want children, now she's 38 and still looking for Mr. Right and wants a child very badly, maybe her marriage could of worked somehow and her husband might of come around, now it's too late". Yeah, I worry about that being me.<P>I've thought about the timeline of getting divorced, there's a 18 month separation period in New Jersey but then you could divorce right after. My cousin actually met someone when she was only separated a month, dated someone and got engaged before she divorced, the divorce was final in February and she married in April. Her first marriage was terrible for many reasons, only married 3 years. She's now married 7 years and has 3 kids and is very happy.<P>I've thought of her alot and know that I can date when separated. You know being older I also think if I did meet someone, we wouldn't date for years and maybe marry right away. <P>I'm still home because I do care for him and do love him but it's not the love my heart desires.<P>Yeah on your OM!!! That's so great Holly, I'm very proud of you!! I'm sorry about your argument, I'm not seeing that movie. I wish I could go with the flow.<p>[This message has been edited by Hummingbird (edited October 21, 1999).]

Andy,<P>Don't be sorry, I appreciate whatever advice you give. DITTO on those things you wrote, I feel that way. <P>I want to feel that peace inside, knowing I'm with the person I belong with, I don't want to question things and I think there might be someone else out there for me where I'd get that peace.<P>I know this is MB, but I'm so confused right now.<P>BTW, Holly, I saw a handsome guy in the cafeteria at lunchtime today, he was looking at me, and where do you think my eyes went first, to his hand to see if there was a wedding ring, no ring. This is not respecting, honoring my marriage, I know. Do you ever feel like banging your head against the wall so maybe some of those lose screws will fall back in place.

Hum--<BR>My husband doesn't wear his ring.<P>Whenever I see a really happy couple I always look to see if they're wearing wedding rings. I always think that they must not be married...they couldn't possibly be that happy and married. I'm always a little stunned when they are married...it makes me a little depressed. Actually (it just remined me of somehting), right after my husband found out about the affair we were at this bar and we're discussing everything. When we were on our way out a group of people stopped us and said that we were the only couple in the bar that seemed to be paying any attention to each other. We said..."if you only knew!" Then they said, "who had the affair?"<P>Andy--<BR>Have you thought about a time limit? How long are you going to work on getting those feelings back for your wife? Have you thought about a trial separation?

Hey Hum, it's okay to be confused. This whole thing sucks, and breeds confusion like rabbits. <P>Pam, I haven't really thought of a time limit. Putting that much pressure on success seems too unrealistic to me at the moment. I also haven't thought about trial separation either. Don't know what that would give us... maybe to find out if I would miss my wife? I dunno. We've never even brought up the possibility.<P>--andy