Cat and dkd:

I have to be honest here. Of course I don't *hate* him but I really don't like him very much right now. I can't tell him anything along those lines and lie about it. I support him in his quest for happiness and I wish him the best. But right now, I don't respect him and I don't like him.

I skimmed DOA and I'll need to re-read it.

It's funny you bring up the AMA. Yes, we're both members here as well as other professional associations. And our town has a networking group that meets Wed mornings. When H got laid off in 2002, that group was his lifeline. He really looked forward to his weekly meeting. But he's only gone once or twice in the year he's been laid off this time. This morning he was ranting about only people (he had choicer names for them)FROM here were getting new jobs after losing their current jobs and that anyone not from here was out of luck.

I suggested doing the networking group. It's at the local church and it's not just business. It's also support and prayer. But he says he can't even deal with talking to people. He goes to DS15' LAX games and stands apart from everyone so he doesn't have to deal with people "looking right through him like he's not even there". Kind of convoluted logic if you ask me. I think people respond if you reach out--even in New England. But he's adamant that everyone here hates him.

Boy, do I know the feeling, lol.

Hang in there, and be true to yourself.

You should go to AMA and make sure you're signed up for the emails about upcoming meetings.

And,if I share anything at this point about my own feelings about the state of our marriage since 2002, he will respond that I am once again, taking his feelings that he ripped from his own heart, and throwing them into his face.

So I have to steel myself for that response because I *will* be open and honest with him about not wanting to spend time with him at the moment. I have to figure out how to do it in a non-LBing way.

"I am not happy when I am with you right now."

OH, I'm not criticising you in any way, simply seeking to understand, okay? Because I really want to see you fully disentangle from the cycle of abuse, and encourage you to deliberately choose your actions and your attitude instead of stonewalling, which is abusive in itself.

How would you feel about doing some work to "reset" youself in a half an hour to an hour, instead of taking longer stretches? Perhaps journaling?

Your H was really making progress the other night, and I hope to see you build on that, but I will let go of the response.

Do you see the contrast between your H's response and Mr. SW's for example? I think you all have a real chance here.

Ok, I'll admit it--I'm dense. HOW was H making progress the other night? How do I 'reset' myself?

I think she means that your husband shared some deep feelings (other than anger) with you and that he was able to maintain the conversation long enough to convey things in not as abusive a fashion.

Or maybe that's just what I thought. (Don't mean to talk for you Ears).

Exactly - It's a tactic that has worked historically in their relationship. My husband does the same thing, Cat. I used to go after him, all worried, etc. I used to phone him at work trying to patch things up. I now give him his space.

It's the equivelant of granting an audience and rewarding poor behavior/poor communication. You have to separate yourself from that sort of thing and send the message that it won't work anymore.

"I can see you're upset. I'm going to give you some space since I have a ton of other things to do. We can talk about this later when things have calmed down."

I think it's concerning that some men are dependent on their wives to pull them out of a tantrum, and even more concerning that the wife thinks it's her job to coddle and coo her husband back to being a human being again.

When does this person take responsiblity for their own anger, their own reactions to things? When does the wife stop being the mother or the counselor or heck - the probation officer?

My dh had a fit last night because he was trying to load batteries into a new phone, and I handed him the directions on the wrong side (Spanish). He went into a rant. I told him I was operating on 3 hours sleep (I've been sick), that he knew I needed new glasses, and that I was going to bed. Who needs it?! I'm too old for the time-worn power-over tactics. He's gotten too MUCH of my time and worry over the years when he acts like that. If he wants to scream, he's going to be all alone now when he does it.

LOL! Mine threw the TV remote on the floor one night while he was having one of his regular hissy fits. The batteries popped out. I left it there. The next day someone picked it up and put the batteries back in but by that time, it had deprogrammed itself. I told everyone I was not calling Verizon and spending an hour on the phone to get the codes. Guess what? The men in the house were remoteless for (I'm not exaggerating...) TWO months until I decided I wanted to watch TV one night in the FR (I rarely watch and when I do, I turn it on in our bedroom). So I went to Verizon's website, got a pdf of all the codes, tried each one for our brand of TV until I got the right one and reprogrammed it.

Oh, and raise your hand, everyone if, after a day of H's outbursts and bad reactions to your emotional honesty about said outbursts, he wakes you up in the middle of the night for SF and you feel......used.......to put it mildly. I almost handed him a towel and told him to take care of himself.

Hi, OH, what I meant yesterday was that when you tried the Plan A the kids and 180 I think it was Sunday night, your H responded so well then. I filtered that as a massive shift for both of you, and was totally delighted. Then Monday and Tuesday, your H Djed you about coming to bed being the "smart" thing to do, and you went against your better judgment, and then blamed him for your choice. I filtered that as a small and overcomable backslide on both of your parts, and was hoping yesterday to urge you back to the Plan Aing the kids/180 combo again. For me, that was a great start at fostering an environment where I saw my H as "with me" instead of "against me". A key piece of that was Drive By O&H, which is sharing O&H without anticipating a response. For example, as you're walking from one room to another. Like you expressed, that is not the same as negotiating for your needs to be met in the short term. It was just another brainstorm option.

I apologize about what I said about Mr. SW. I don't have the information from here to say that, and SW, if you read that in my post yesterday, please accept my humble apology. What I had said in IAgree's case, was repeating his assessment from within the situation. His assessment matched with my own interactions with both of them. He would set boundaries, and she would come here and say that his boundaries were unnacceptable. For example, like de-escalating an argument by sleeping on it when it was late instead of staying up when they were too tired to reach a POJA. When Rule 1 of negotiation is to keep it pleasant, and take a break when it is no longer pleasant. But what I said about Mr. SW was not something SW had said, and I have not interacted with Mr. SW, so I had no basis to make a statement like that, of what would or would not reach him today.

I would be thrilled if you spent some time today hammering out your plan, getting it really specific, what LBs of yours you are focusing on, what ENs you are enthusiastic about meeting. So that we could support you specifically in what you determine. There are long-timers on the board like LA and others who are truly amazing at mentoring, identifying options that ring true for folks. I encourage you to get professional support and call out for one of them.

I understand the feeling frustrated, OH. LA reminded me at some tough moments a pattern, that I always got the most frustrated right before the next growth spurt. Like how kids' clothes get too tight and uncomfortable right before you replace them with the next size.

Thanks for explaining EO. I guess I really didn't see a huge breakthrough on H's behalf in terms of response, but perhaps I was looking for the wrong thing!

As far as the 180, yes I like that strategy--it feels less to me like a 'doormat' strategy than Plan A. I'm not saying I don't like Plan A--it is a sound strategy--but in my case, I think I need something that is a bit less over the top. The 180 fits.

As far as meeting ENs and getting rid of LBs, I'm trying to follow the same basic plan.

His ENS as I see them (he won't complete the questionnaires)

1. SF (this one is tough for me to be consistent as in cases like last night--in the middle of the night--I feel 'used'. And if I point it out, he pouts so it becomes a LB in itself. And it's tough to reconcile fulfilling this need in light of being O&H with my "I don't want to be with you right now").

2. Admiration: I'm doing better on this one.

3. Conversation: This is a matter of giving him 100% of my attention when he speaks or letting him know (again O&H) that I am doing something and if he can wait 5 minutes until I finish, I will give him 100% of my attention. He has responded well to this.

For LBs:

1. Selfish demands: I didn't realize I was doing this until I'd completed the questionnaire from his perspective! So I am doing my best to eliminate these. I am not overt in my SDs, which is probably why I didn't recognize them. But my 'bull in a china shop' attitude about making sure my point of view is heard (and acted upon) is a SD.

2. DJs: Have been working on these. Eliminating "you" statements is tough! I slip back into them in the heat of the moment. But the worst DJs are the mental ones and I'm working on those.

3. AOs --I don't have too many of these. Working to eliminate.

4. IB: My financial decisions and decisions about the kids. Have been making great progress here.

5. O&H: I not sure I should include this as a LB because it feels to me that when I *am* O&H, it's a LB! But I'm working on it nonetheless.

Guys, I'm having trouble with this one thing. If you say something that your H/W considers going against what THEY want/believe, and pout, did you just DJ that person?

Is a DJ anything that causes your spouse to be upset? I don't think that is fair, especially if they are being unreasonable or only looking out for themselves.

Wow, OurHouse, what a turnaround from yesterday, where you didn't feel motivated to keep trying! I am so happy for you. Seriously, when I look at your list of LBs, I see a huge return for you in your life and your parenting, whether your marriage winds up where you want it, or not. Do you have the Love Busters book? I lent it out and don't have it back yet, but if you post up the exercises, I'd be glad to help with accountability.

1. Selfish demands: Have you read up on Thoughtful Requests? I just quoted it in Ruby's thread. Simply state what you would like, and ask him how he would feel about fulfilling it.
2. DJs: Are you familiar and comfortable with the Thoughtful Request?
3. AOs: This was a struggle for me, too. I turned my anger inward, and created a depression I'm still on ADs for. How's your self-care - exercise, nutrition?
4. IB: My financial decisions and decisions about the kids. Have been making great progress here. -- Kudos to you, OH!
5. O&H: How do you feel about that drive-by O&H?

Cat, no, DJ is the boundary crossings, where you are deciding what the "right" thoughts/feelings/actions someone else "should" have. We're replacing that with thoughtful requests, respectful persuasion, negotiation.

As an aside, some of us even DJ ourselves, putting ourselves down for behaviors! We can replace that with making Thoughtful Requests of ourselves:

• Awareness - asking ourselves what we do want
• Acceptance - of our previous decisions and how we felt about it
• Action - Identifying the behavior or lack of behavior that is honest for today, including self-forgiveness and amends when appropriate, and letting go of the response

ears, my bad. I meant to say LB, not DJ. I was asking because it seemed like OH keeps blaming herself for his anger, and that seemed wrong.

SF (this one is tough for me to be consistent as in cases like last night--in the middle of the night--I feel 'used'. And if I point it out, he pouts so it becomes a LB in itself. And it's tough to reconcile fulfilling this need in light of being O&H with my "I don't want to be with you right now")


O&H: I not sure I should include this as a LB because it feels to me that when I *am* O&H, it's a LB!

Few quick comments...


- DJ
Is there a negative implication here - e.g. 'what a baby'? Sounded like it.

How about 'H appears sad when I tell him I don't feel like having sex.'

It's a DJ to judge his feelings here, which are the ones I'd have had in that situation. Likewise when he gets angry 'having one of his regular hissy fits.'

Ideally replace the DJ with humility, compassion, seeking to understand.

My um, simpleminded / bird-brained thinking around sex (my top EN) used to go as follows...

I love W and so I desire her. If we've had a fight, I still love her. What better way to make up?

If one person loves another, they feel desire. They respond. If she doesn't show desire for me, doesn't respond to me, she doesn't love me.

If your H's thinking is as addled as mine, he'll be feeling unloved and down when you reject him.

Addled, because I falsely expect my W to express love the same way I do. To feel the same desire I did.

But not really addled - I think it's probably a pretty common muisunderstanding. And it works both ways - "If H loved me, he'd sit and talk with me more. And I wouldn't have to ask him - he'd just know. So he can't love me.'

Maybe you know all this already.

I'm NOT saying you ought to have sex whenever he feels like it. Rather be radically honest. Tell him how you feel, and why you feel that way.

But be gentle! "I don't feel like sex because..."
Not "I can't believe you want sex after ...." Take it from me, the second way hurts!

I'm really not sure which direction to go these days.

First priority is working on me, being good to me, doing what makes me happy. I know that sounds selfish but I've put me at the end of the list for well over 20 years now and I'm falling apart because of it. I will try to focus on me in the most respectful way possible, and not step on his toes while I'm doing it.

By H's own admission, he is focusing on himself. He says that until he fixes his career and lifstyle issues, he can't begin to focus on anything else. He thinks that it will all fall into line anyway, once he fixes what's wrong with his life.

I don't agree.

Also, who is focusing on the marriage now? Answer: no one.

I was answering lildoggie's thread about financial security and it struck me:

I got married for all the wrong reasons.

I wanted to make a permanent home in the PNW, so I married someone who was raised there and had family there. He appeared to have a large extended family and I was missing that in my own life. He seemed to have a steady good job with a lot of growth potential. Of course, I fell in love with him for other reasons too, but I can't deny the family and financial security issues didn't play a part.

So what happens? Right before the wedding, he starts a campaign to move. He says he has no friends and there are no career opportunities for him there and he doesn't like the lifestyle. He and his mother had a huge falling out about the wedding and it brought a whole lot of other issues to the surface and forever harmed their already delicate relationship. He became estranged from his family. And he quit his job to move to CA with my job transfer and was never able to find employment there.

I'm not sure how to process all of that but it struck me that I'm probably carrying around some big resentments that I should figure out how to unload. I can never tell him what I figured out about getting married for the wrong reasons--I think that would crush him.

OH, what is it that you don't agree with about his plan? Aren't those the things you laid out for him? Get a job and control his drinking? So now he wants to work on those things and you disagree that it will help?

Am I hearing you right?

OH, what's your plan for fun RC and FC this weekend? I just realized we haven't addressed these essential pieces of the MB Plan.