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*hugs* OH!!!
I don't have anything useful to add, so just *hugs*! Don't give up and don't leave. Yes maybe your H won't be influenced or helped by you learning and following MB stuff, but hopefully you will become stronger.
me - 47  H - 39  married 2001 DS 8a  DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Agreed, OH, but in the meantime, you can learn and practice better interaction skills to preserve your sanity when dealing with someone like him. That's why I recommend reading more specific stuff on how to interact with such a person so that he's not constantly pushing your buttons and leaving YOU wounded, while he carries on in traditional fashion. I want you to protect yourself. I feel so torn on this one. I think Ears and OH were accurate when they mentioned there are differences between who I was dealing with and OH's spouse. Part of me says if it's a rotten thing with a terribly high likelihood of staying rotten, then the sooner she put him at an arm's length and starts her new life, the better. And let's face it. The odds are that things are not going to change-- not after the patterns they have shown and that he has shown repeatedly over the last 10 yrs. If he is truly abusive, it is nearly impossible to deal with a person like that. So then the question becomes how much can she work on herself to assure that she can look back on things without regret and know she did all she could. And how can she assure that the way she has relationships is healthy in case she decides to pursue a relationship with someone else-- as not to repeat the same dynamics as her current relationship. I do think there is some benefit and truth in that. But I also learned that some people are truly impossible to have a relationship with and to spend a ton of energy learning to deal with the impossible is a waist of "your soul". Not to get on too much of a tangent but when I see the Casey Angthony case, I am reminded of my ex. I never was threatened by my ex that she'd kill me or anything like that... but the compulsive lying... the focus on how things appear instead of how they really are... the use of people like family and friends as pawns... I really believe their core makeup as to what they are motivated by to be very similar. A relationship with a person like that is foolish. And it is equally foolish to practice relationships skills on a person like that. Better to simply get away from it and try to find a healthy person to start building relationships skills with. Part of the problem with an abusive person is that it is a game to them to always win. If you do indeed have an abusive partner, the best thing to do is recognize that you are in a game and get out and stop playing. To keep trying to score points in a game designed where you lose seems pointless to me.
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The only thing that will help me is to be on my own with the kids and the best and least instrusive way (for the kids) to do that is for him to move to Oregon. OH, this makes me curious every time you say it. Can you elaborate? Because the first thing I would think of, when thinking of separating, would be for my exH to move out of the house, but close enough that he can interact with the kids as often as you guys want. So I'm curious why you think it would be better for the kids for him to move that far away? Is it cos you think he'll get mean? I guess what I'm saying is that the reason you're giving - and the way you've phrased it in the past - sounds more like you're bribing him to go away and not hurt you guys by you offering to help move him away from you. Is that not what you're saying?
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I know my observations are very scattered. I hope I am helping in some small way.
I'm a HUGE HUGE believer these days in statistics, big patterns, red flags... type of stuff. For example, his unemployment can be chalked up to this or that but it's still a huge red flag and indicator in how I evaluate things when I try and zoom out and see things big picture.
I noticed in one of your recent posts that you mentioned that you had an eating disorder. I'd like to mention that this is one of those indicators for me. Eating disorders are usually highly associated with a response to lack of control... resulting in a person becoming very controlling and trying to control what they can-- their weight. I have an aunt who went through that. She has "recovered" but she is without a doubt a neurotic control freak. Relationship after relationship has fallen apart on her because of her extreme controlling ways.
How would you rank yourself on your ability to let go? Did you see a counselor to get over your eating disorder? How much of an understanding was reached in terms of your need to control? Do you feel like you made peace with that issue in your life? Do any issues remain inside that if you had access to counseling would be helpful?
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The only thing that will help me is to be on my own with the kids and the best and least instrusive way (for the kids) to do that is for him to move to Oregon. OH, this makes me curious every time you say it. Can you elaborate? Because the first thing I would think of, when thinking of separating, would be for my exH to move out of the house, but close enough that he can interact with the kids as often as you guys want. So I'm curious why you think it would be better for the kids for him to move that far away? Is it cos you think he'll get mean? I guess what I'm saying is that the reason you're giving - and the way you've phrased it in the past - sounds more like you're bribing him to go away and not hurt you guys by you offering to help move him away from you. Is that not what you're saying? It's pretty simple. Because of our financial picture, the easiest and most peaceful way to get him out is to go along with his plan to move to Oregon. I guess it's sort of a 'wimp out' too. If things look like they might improve, I *could* choose to move out there but maintain a separate residence.
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I know my observations are very scattered. I hope I am helping in some small way.
I'm a HUGE HUGE believer these days in statistics, big patterns, red flags... type of stuff. For example, his unemployment can be chalked up to this or that but it's still a huge red flag and indicator in how I evaluate things when I try and zoom out and see things big picture.
I noticed in one of your recent posts that you mentioned that you had an eating disorder. I'd like to mention that this is one of those indicators for me. Eating disorders are usually highly associated with a response to lack of control... resulting in a person becoming very controlling and trying to control what they can-- their weight. I have an aunt who went through that. She has "recovered" but she is without a doubt a neurotic control freak. Relationship after relationship has fallen apart on her because of her extreme controlling ways.
How would you rank yourself on your ability to let go? Did you see a counselor to get over your eating disorder? How much of an understanding was reached in terms of your need to control? Do you feel like you made peace with that issue in your life? Do any issues remain inside that if you had access to counseling would be helpful? Good questions. I had a pretty tragic childhood with both of my parents dying within 3 months of each other and my extended family making a lot of (in retrospect) really wrong decisions as they related to my sister and me. My sister completely fell apart. She's 4 years older yet at 11/12 years old, I had to assume the role of the 'older' sister. It soon became apparent to me that the only way I was going to get what I wanted out of life is if I made it happen. So I suppose that can make one a bit of a control freak. I've been trying to examine this issue to see if it's playing into my relationship dynamic. I haven't yet figured it out. I just know that my ability to be assertive, take charge and get things done in my professional life and even in my personal life, seems to stop when it involves my husband. I'm sure abandonment plays a factor but there are most likely other factors too.
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I just know that my ability to be assertive, take charge and get things done in my professional life and even in my personal life, seems to stop when it involves my husband. That's because he is the one person on this planet from whom you crave to be deemed valuable - someone he WON'T want to abandon, as you were abandoned by your parents. A H/W dynamic takes over when all others won't. You so desperately need this one person, this man, to say to you and the world that you mean everything to him, that you instantly become the Giver so that he won't get mad and abandon you like everyone else. Just like ears was talking about letting her kids go to school when sick, rather than risk an issue with her H. Your SO simply doesn't follow the same rules (in your mind and heart) as everyone else does. They get special status. So they won't leave you.
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[ It's pretty simple. Because of our financial picture, the easiest and most peaceful way to get him out is to go along with his plan to move to Oregon. I guess it's sort of a 'wimp out' too. If things look like they might improve, I *could* choose to move out there but maintain a separate residence. My parents did this a few times, and it did not help there marriage one bit. My Dad would leave, move to another city "for work", while my Mom would stay back for when the time was right. My Dad would think of it as a separation, but he could come back whenever he wanted. My mom would take it as if it was just finances, not a real separation. I just don't think it will be helpful for you. I don't know how you'd really know if things are improving if he's not even in the same town.
Me 38 Divorced 8/09 DS 10,6 DD 4
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I'm not in that position. I have stepped outside my comfort zone and have seen nothing in return for my efforts. OH, I can certainly understand how you could feel this way, but don't sell yourself short. Even looking back only a few months, can you not see how much you have changed? How much of an effort you are making to initiate change in your own life to improve yourself as a person, regardless of what happens to your M. Think back to your thought processes just a few months ago. Are you not thinking differently now even during conflict? Sure, bad habits may still rear their ugly heads, but can you not take some comfort in knowing that you are making changes, even if your H refuses to engage in better differentiating himself? For what it's worth, 5/6 has some valid points with respect to how you're choosing to communicate to your H. I know they are hard to hear but oftentimes you'll look back on such challenges and realize just how helpful said challenges were in retrospect. Others have claimed that your H is verbally abusive to not only yourself but also his kids. I'm in no position to judge as he is not here. I'd guess he could use some help managing his anger - he seems like an angry person - frustrated with his life circumstances but overwhelmed for whatever reason and paralyzed enough to apparently not be able to take constructive steps to deal with his issues. He strikes me as someone who errs on the side of judgement too quickly and not understanding - because he believes that to demonstrate love and understanding is to basically give in and admit defeat - he sees these problems within the context of competition between parent and child (a test of wills per se) instead of a matter of cooperation between parent and child (mentoring consistently over time - being a good example of what to be - if you want to see it then you need to be it).
God Bless,
HitchHiker
All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein
INTJ married to an ENFJ
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HH, I do think I've made some positive changes. I guess it's disappointing that those changes haven't led to fixing my marriage. Maybe I'm too idealistic.
The other issue is that it's hard for me to respect my husband right now. I do think he is exhibiting classic signs of depression and that this isn't new--it's probably a long-term issue. But I feel powerless in that there's nothing I can do to help. And the problem pervades our entire lives. Your observatiosn about his interactions with the kids are right on the money, IMO.
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the easiest and most peaceful way to get him out So you're afraid he'll get mean?
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OH I know how painful it is to be on the wrong side of verbal abuse.
The advice I got here was very light on how to handle that.
Harley makes a few suggestions for handling verbal abuse, of verbal rejoinders, and ultimately separation until the left spouse can guarantee the leaving spouse an environment free of LBs.
Harley certainly doesn't advise to tough it out with an abusive spouse forever.
I've given you a few other suggestions about dealing with verbal abuse that helped me that I read about here and there.
MB is very clear on eliminating ones own LBs too though, and that's been the point of many of my posts.
You can't claim the high ground until your own LBs are gone.
From his reaction to your comment on 'loud guy' it seems your H is sensitised to disrespectful comments, sometimes perceiving it when none is intended. I think there's useful information for you there. 1) He is sensitive 2) How did he get SO sensitive?
Anyway, since it's not helping you, I will stop pointing these LBs out and wish you and your M well.
I think your H wants to be a good husband and father.
Me 49 SAHD; W 41 SAHM; DS3, DS4. Seven year affairage.
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It could be that I'm the problem and that I'm not cut out for relationships. I've not had a whole lot of great experiences to draw on. That's a pretty big part of the reason I'm ready to throw in the towel. I find myself just wanting to be on my own.
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OH:
We all gravitate toward partners who are equally messed up as we are. If you want to have a great relationship with a healthy partner, then you need to be a healthy person first. You may need to leave your current H to become healthier. That is far from the worst thing that could happen.
But just because you want to be away from him does not mean that you are "not cut out for a relationship". And even if it does, that statement is only true "for now". You can learn to become a good partner. You can learn to behave in healthy, constructive ways. And then you will be "cut out" for a relationship.
FWIW, I do not see you as "not cut out" for relationships. I see you as "not cut out" for a relationship with the person you are with and the way he currently chooses to behave. Which is a good thing. If you were "cut out" to enjoy dealing with your husband's current behavior, that would be very sad.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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Very well said, hold.
OH, ditto for me. You're way to strong and smart and decent to NOT be good partner material. Look at it this way. Your H is suffering because you're too nice. You let him get away with bad behavior (that's the worst thing I can think of to say about you). Because of that he has never had to improve himself.
So separating would actually do him a favor. Maybe this is his time to grow.
Of course, in the meantime, with you on your own not having to deflect all his crap, you will not only grow, you will blossom!
You can always get back together later. But please don't put off the issue until you can talk him into going back home. Please don't use that excuse. He already knows your feelings. He knows you want him out if he doesn't straighten up. So quit waffling and do the right thing - which he has already acknowledged. He can get a job at 7-11 to pay for an apartment, and spend all his spare time learning how to be a better husband and father.
Please consider this for your family's sake. He will never learn, as is.
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Guys, I'm 52 years old and looking like crap after suffering all this stress. Believe me, if I separate, a new relationship is not in the cards!
I think I need a 'marriage break-up' website, not a 'marrige builders' website. LOL
The kids are on vacation this week which makes working from home more difficult. I'd go into the office but my company has hired so many people in the past 6 months, that we're stacking ourselves up in cubes, conference rooms, etc. I'm sharing office space with the owner's wife. We've worked it out that she comes in T,W and Friday and I go in M/Th. This is probably a very good problem to have given the economy, so I'm not complaining. In fact, we're adding someone to my little department starting Monday and I've got to spend most of next week in the office training her so I had to kick out the 4 guys sharing the conference room temporarily! LOL
We're moving into new space on May 15 so it's all short lived.
Anyway, that was a long, roundabout way of saying I can't escape the house and go into the office. When I took this job, the big benefit was the work-from-home aspect 3 days/week. But H was working then.
So here we are: I can't sleep at night because I'm freaking out about money. Panic attacks, insomnia, etc. When I try to tell H how I feel in a non-judgemental way ("I am so worried about finances" "I can't sleep because I'm worried about XYZ"), I don't get what I'd consider support. I hear "now you know how I feel--I can't sleep either." or "you can't do anything about it at 2AM. come back to bed." (minimizing--i HATE this!)or"Great, now I feel even worse".
If he felt so bad, wouldn't he be doing everything in his power to bring in something? His UI is gone now. The PT window job has not come through in the way I understood it would. He had an idea to do something with a friend whose woodworking business is suffering but hasn't acted on it. A local bank is looking for a product manager. He grumbled about it being lower than his last bank position but he's going to apply. He found out about it almost 2 weeks ago and has sent me about 7 renditions of his resume to critique but has not yet sent anything in. We rent now since we had to sell the house. Our landlady is great. I couldn't make the full rent this past month and was telling her how I was going to get it paid. She said she knew of someone wanting to fix up their townhome to sell. Would H be interested? I asked him, he said he was. So I told landlady that. She gave him the contact info Sunday night. He still hasn't called.
I *know* what I have to do so I don't need any lectures about why I haven't done it yet. And please don't tell me to tell him to just get off his [censored] and do something. I've hinted. I've asked. I've suggested. I've complained. I've cried. I've 'thoughtfully requested'. I have tried every way under the sun to communicate to him that this can't go on--he has to do something and it starts an ugly fight more often than not and I don't have the energy for those anymore.
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"Please don't tell me there's a solution when I'm ready to move from awareness to acceptance, that this is what it is today. Because if I realize that my action, hinting and worrying, is not getting me where I want to go, then I'd have to take a different action, which I don't want to take. I want to be right, so I guess that means I don't want to be happy, today. Maybe tomorrow. Today, I want to DJ my H for not calling about the townhouse work, because it distracts me from focusing on choosing my own behavior. Enough about me, let's complain about HIM today! Don't tell me anything more about my behavior!"
Did I get it right? Did I get it all? It does sound totally frustrating. Good to know you have other choices, too!
OH, the basic concepts are really really simple, just like any other plan that works in another area is. When you're not ready for the next step, like the Plan A/Plan B decision, or identifying some other options in between, that's fine, you just go back to the previous step, the eliminating LBs, like the DJs about your husband's actions above being inappropriate to the situation today. If you're not ready for that step, the eliminating LBs, how about going back to the step before, the reading the articles and deciding to eliminate your LBs? Or deciding that you may need more support to do that step, like calling an IC?
Would you be willing to take that step today? Reread the Basic Concepts section on LBS and consider replacing them with other habits? Consider what support you could get to help you be ready to do that?
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13 Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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Ears, that all sounds great in theory. In practice, I can't figure out where the money for bills is going to come from this month and yes, I DJ'd my husband's grumbling about the bank job (not the townhouse work--I cited a fact: he hasn't called).
If I try to tell him how scared I am, we fight. If I don't tell him how scared I am, I have panic attacks.
Re-reading basic concepts is not helping me here. I understand what you are saying but I think I'm beyond reading words on a piece of paper.
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I hear "now you know how I feel--I can't sleep either." or "you can't do anything about it at 2AM. come back to bed." (minimizing--i HATE this!)or"Great, now I feel even worse". Because that's exactly what abusive, controlling people do - they DEFLECT. EVERYTHING. Nothing is ever their fault. If you dare show a feeling of your own, he tears it to shreds so he cannot possibly be the cause of any of your issues. It's what they do. They never change. If he felt so bad, wouldn't he be doing everything in his power to bring in something? His UI is gone now. OH, what makes you think he feels bad? If he felt bad, he would have taken a job 4 or 5 years ago just to put food on his kids' table. But he's abusive/controlling, so he puts his own needs ahead of everyone else's. Because he knows you will cover for him. That's why he married you. I know you're down, and I hate to trash on you like that, but honestly, weren't we at this place a month ago? Where you said his butt was out the door if something didn't change? And yet here you are again, making excuses, ignoring questions, anything you have to do, to avoid living up to your decision of a month ago. This is reminding me of the lady we tried to help 20 years ago who was married to an abuser. She hated living with him, she wanted out. We helped her plan for months - save up money, get an apartment, secretly move her clothes out a piece at a time. She moved out. He came to work, yelled and criticized, blamed it all on her. She moved back in within a week. And quit contact with us because she was ashamed for not doing what she knew was right. Where do you want to be in a year? Is having him by your side more important than your self-esteem? Happiness? Peace of mind? He can always come back, AFTER seeing you're serious. But he will never change if you let him stay. JMHO
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I get you. That your H not following up with the townhouse work isn't a judgment against him, it's relevant information given the current outstanding bills. I stand corrected, thanks. Okay, maybe Basic Conepts isn't what you need to be reading today. How about something about dealing with financial crises. What do people in this situation do? You are working on the income side, taking on extra work. What can you do to reduce expenses? Go down to one car? Apply for food stamps, utility assistance, and subsidized housing, if appropriate given your joint income? Fully take over the bank accounts, and give your H a weekly cash allowance, like Hold had to do to start getting out from under the debt his W racked up? Temporarily disconnect the cable and cell phones? Not being able to pay rent is a red flag that your family may be living above its means. Would getting an apprpriate budget in place help you sleep at night again?
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13 Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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