I would love to have him checked out medically, but he refuses, and our MC won't issue that as an order. He and MC are both convinced I focus on attempting to patholigize him, rather than admit legitimacy to the issues. This has been a bone of contention between MC and I.

And, yes, TTC (trying to conceive) can be stressful, but to be honest it really felt like *I* was the stressed one.

Funnily enough, MIL watched kiddo for our date tonight, and I ended up driving her home. The minute we got into the car she asked "So, are the dates helping anything? I ask [your H, my son] and everytime he talks plenty but it seems he really says nothing of substance." I explained that that's how it has been around our place. We talked a little, during which she told me that she was very angry with him for all of this crazy behavior, that she was so surprised when he told her what he told her, that she was sick for weeks in the pit of her stomach and NOT taking his side, but mine. She thinks it's sh1tty and crazy that he says he never loved me, because she remembers clearly being so thankful that he was so happy, because he always spoke about how much he loved me, and we had such a solid foundation of being best friends. It was really amazing to hear from her, and felt so good to hear someone else acknowledge that he was crazy about me. Since she led us there, I politely exposed his computer problem, as if he moves in with her it's good she'd be aware. She is disgusted with him, really upset that he could tank this perfection we always had, perfection he spoke about until the end of 2008.

Hmpf! Just when I thought things were taking an upturn...

Last night we went on a date, and it culminated in SF and him staying upstairs in our bed.

Today, I find he spent 45 minutes on porn sites while I wasn't home and is truly going deeper underground with his methods...

How does this work? I really think there is an issue here with detached intimacy and addiction to the inappropriate. (Whether it be internet porn, Facebook flirting games, or whatever) Is there any progress here in that at least he came back to ME after getting himself all worked up? I don't even know what the hell to think I'm not sure our therapist is equipped for this... I'm not sure H would admit it being an unhealthy addiction. When last we dealt with this in session, the therapist really seemed to let him get away with how this is all a result of disatisfaction with me, but not actually my fault. I'm teetering back and forth on whether our MC is the right one... but we've been in for 4.5 months so if we scrap him what is to say we will get someone better and then there's that whole starting from zero.

And with MIL SOOOOO onboard with me, and I do mean SOOOO onboard with me, should I ask her to withdraw her home as a back-up plan for him? And how?

What next? And do I just keep up the Plan A?

I just wanted to say, I really appreciate all the help and wisdom... or even the just knowing that I'm not alone... I feel so desperately alone sometimes, then I come here... I'm probably posting too much, but it's not like I even got any time to lead up to this... it's not like H pulled away slowly. I'm not used to the loneliness I feel... it's strange the things you get jealous of, like in my imagination it must feel easier to have slow growth of distance so you have time to adjust Sorry

The only progress is sobriety. I've read on other message boards where women have SF with their husbands, and less than an hour later, the husbands are watching porning and mbing..Sex addiction really doesn't have anything to do with sex. Just like alcoholics don't drink because they are thirsty. Addiction is a mechanism to numb yourself from feeling. To escape. Some people do it with drugs, some people do it with gambling, and my husband chose sex as the way to self medicate.

I went to see a "normal" therapist at first during my recovery. She was, basically full of crap. She told me my husband could one day use porn again. (That's like telling a drug addict they can do coke again.) I've read other women who have had the same experience as you. Please find someone who is trained to deal with addiction issues minimally, a CSAT would be best.

Some resources that you might want to look into:
Recoverynation.com
A CSAT therapist for yourself
no-porn.com
Any book on sex addiction by Patrick Carnes (Don't call it love and out of the shadows)
The Book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend
Any 12-step group: COSA and S-ANON are specifically for spouses of sex addicts.
The book "The Porn Trap"

It's probably best for you to simply try to understand the nature of addiction and to set boundaries.
I'm guessing you don't find your husband's behavior appropriate. Addictions escalate. It's a universal, but the wild card is you won't know how it's going to escalate. Your husband's addiction could very well escalate into physical cheating. He's already having an EA.

In my case, I'm made up that I simply won't tolerate addiction. So I told him it was addiction or me 2 days after I discovered his addiction and figured out he was addicted. I only have one boundary: relapse into daily use=divorce.
Other people have other boundaries: such as, if the husband porns, he sleeps in another room at night; if the husband porns the wife takes the credit card and gets a day at the spa. If the husband porns, the wife leaves for 2 days to re-assess the relationship. Here's where the boundary book comes in handy.

Go back to Dr. Harley's words. The Marriage Builder's program does not work when addiction is present. I did a Plan A with my husband. I got tired of it and eventually went into a state of withdrawl. Honestly, I'd begin working on yourself. Figure out how much of his addiction you are going to tolerate..Where's that line for you? Again, for me personally, I chose to work on this with my husband, as he hadn't cheated or done anything illegal. If he were to put my family or health in jeopordy, all bets are off.

Search for posts by KaylaAndy and Loving Anyway. Their husbands are also recovering SA's. They are much more eloquent than I am about this stuff.

If you have the records, what about creating a spreadsheet/chart on the time he spends on it? Such a visual representation - based against the hours in a day - would be a big eye opener, even to dumb therapists who don't see the issue.

You might even draw a correlary chart with the amount of time you SF, and show the disparity - the more time online, the less the SF...

Thanks, both of you, for everything... whether it's advice or just knowing that someone hears me out, it's important.

A chart wouldn't work for 2 reasons, #1 it would tip my hand on my snooping methods (which I consider REALLY important because I'm NOT coming out of this with an STD should he decide to fully PA) and #2 it's not excessive hours, it's the inappropriateness. Like, even H said during other occasions that he didn't feel it was mentally healthy for him or good for our relationship.

It's not hours on end, but it's the living in fantasy sexy flirty land. Either he's watching porn, or he's joining the newest suggestive game on Facebook and befriending all the girls with slutty pics in their profiles and then searching all their albums to see all their bra shots, etc.

He's, well shoot, what the hell? I'm not even sure how to quantify it. He's just not appropriate, and the escalation of being secretive and flirty and inappropriate, it's NOT my H.

I had breakfast with his mom this morning and she and I are equally disgusted with what's going on with him. She and I would both like him to see a psychiatrist. She's so 150% on my side, it's amazing, because she is adamant and certain that the reasons he has told her and told other people who have talked to her are just plain crazy, and she thinks in a few years if he successfully ends this that he will be so sad and regretful.

I just want my H back. This person is just not all that recognizable...

I keep hoping he'll get a different job and return to his usual circadian rhythm and these personality changes will fall away just as oddly as they came.

Ok, now you're starting to talk like he's having an affair.

And that's precisely what it feels like... he is having an affair with the computer. While originally it was girls in London and half a world away, recently its' been a MOBILE hooker (thank G-d I know every dollar in this house!) and now I just saw that some [censored] IN MY CITY that he befriended sent him a message through Facebook "You're so [censored] hot, and your kiddo is gorgeous!" (Kiddo is in the profile shot with him) I vacilate... between wanting to beat the ever loving sh1t out of him and wanting to scoop him up in my arms and put the pieces back together like Humpty Dumpty...

And this incredible lack of physical intimacy and affection, coming like it has from nowhere, it's just killing me. True SA? Or just an addiction to the inappropriate? Midlife crisis? Nervous breakdown? Neurotic inhibition syndrome? Intimacy issues (as in "I won't have closeness with anyone, even conversationally") It's just too muddy. I want my H back. I just want to cry and scream and throw a fit.

White Russian-
Does it matter what sort of addiction it is? "True addiction" or "addiction to the inappropriate" Call it peanut butter if you'd like, but boundaries are still being crossed in major ways.

Sex addiction IS an intimacy issue. I don't know of someone who is OK with non-sexual intimacy and still feels the need to self-medicate. Do you?

You want your h back. I hear you. But you can't make him. You can't pick up the pieces. HE MUST do that.

So, let's work on you. What are your boundaries? Why are you still allowing this behavior in your home? Why are you risking your child being exposed to porn? Or that your child is a part of his fantasy life.

Right now, by not having any boundaries, you are completely accepting this behavior.

Have you done any reading on addiction, sex addiction or intimacy issues?

What good is it doing you to continue to check up on him? You KNOW he's got issues, yes. Reading another message on Facebook won't suddenly make the clear for you. You can't stop him if he decides to cheat.

I understand the lack of intimacy coming from no -where. Our marriage really spiraled down rapidly in the last 6 months before d-day. It was ugly. But here's the thing-as your husband is withdrawning from you, his addiction/compulsion, what ever you want to call it is escalating.

It's likely going to get worse before it gets better. So what are you doing to prepare yourself for that? Checking up on him won't prepare you for further his further escalations, KWIM?

Although...although...wouldn't it be fun to contact that girl on fb and say "Thank you so very much for complimenting my husband and child! It really makes me proud that they are my family! And I agree, he IS hot!"

I did nearly exactly that


So... yesterday morning I got up and after kiddo was at school I had H open his email and let me peek because he promised I could whenever I wanted, and through this I busted him for flirtatious chatter with a girl in town on Facebook. SHe is a stranger, but there was definite flirting. I printed it, right in front of him for my records. He took the copy and put it in his pocket and wouldn't give it to me. It was ugly. We literally ended up brawling. (That's a first)

Anywho, I busted him, to which the typical "You're too in my business! You're making something of nothing and I'm tired of you! You're being a nosy b1tch. You crowd me. F*** you, I don't have to take this sh*t, I'm moving into my moms house this weekend!" So, I very calmly picked up the phone and called his mom. "<MIL>, this is WR calling, just wanted to let you know MrWR is moving in with you this weekend because I am a nosy b1tch by calling him out on flirting with women online." MIL said "Oh! No..noo...noooo he's not moving in here. You're not kicking him out, right? He's still free to live there?" I confirmed he was merely huffing out of his own accord because he didn't want to be called out on being inappropriate with women online. She said "Well, then, he's not coming here. Let me talk to him." I gave him the phone and she told him under no uncertain terms that he is NOT moving in there. HAHAHAHAHA

So our fight continues, which TBH we hadn't fought for real in who knows how long. Finally, miraculously, I seemed to make progress. I laid it straight out that all of OUR long term close friends are worried that he is not acting like himself, etc. At first he tried to deny it, but eventually he relented and was even crying about the mistakes and the denial and how can I ever forgive him for putting me through all of this just because he is clearly in a mental crisis of some sort? I assured him that if he doesn't choose to continue inappropriate behavior and cross boundries that I will always be there, because it's "for better, or for worse... for richer or poorer... in sickness and in health."

OMG I had to tell you, I saw a glimpse of HIM the REAL HIM through this muck pile. My heart lept with joy, it was so hopeful. We walked into our counseling session a half hour later with the mindset of how are we going to help him recover and him help me recover from what he has been like... he admitted I had shown him the light that this was a midlife crisis... then within 15 minutes our therapist basically said that there is no such thing as a midlife crisis as far as diagnoses go, and he wanted to get it straight and make me say that I was devaluing and dismissing all of H's feelings. We walked out talking about custody and division of assets GRRR I fired that therapist.

H initially refused another one, he was now DONE, not even a trial sep but a real deal. Then, moments later he returned to the "I don't know what I want... I suppose you can get more therapists names, but I'm not promising anything."

I need to get him back to that place he was at before our session, and I need people to help me hold him in that chair, so to speak. I got him to agree that we can sit down and talk to his mom. I got kiddo scheduled to sleepover someplace else, so we can all talk completely freely. I also contacted our friends, who have already tried telling him he needs help, but whose messages he twists and edits to meet his desires... they are putting it on paper. We're going intervention style today. His mom and I are going to sit down and present him with copies of these letters that are about what HE HAS SAID to the friends that have made their mouths gape.

Pray for me. Pray for us. Pray hard.

WR-
When I discovered my husband's stuff..oh I got the crocodile tears. Nice big fat ones, rolling down his cheek.

When I snooped the day after d-day, I got that my husband wasn't simply just "being a man" and was doing "what all men do." I called him out on it, and again I got the big crocodile tears.

So, crying doesn't mean squat.

You CANNOT "help" him recovery. Your husband MUST do this on his own. In the best case..he is having a midlife crisis- he must take care of himself. You can't control how your husband feels, and you can't make him do or feel anything.

If your husband, worst case, is an sa, you still can't help him heal. You can't do the recovery work for him. Support him, yes. Do the actual recovery work, no.

Interventions may be good, but the only one who is setting boundaries right now is your MIL. Which, IMVHO, is the wrong person. Your husband is not married to your MIL, no?

Where are your boundaries? Make up a list and ask him to comply. If he won't, well, you've got your answer that whatever is plaguing your husband is more important than you. Why allow that in your relationship. Honestly, I'd do a Plan B if that were the case.

Why do you allow and put up with this behavior?

In my experience, my H really can't crocodile tear. I could be wrong, but I just don't think he can.

I am not sure what you mean by a Plan B letter. I know B is ZERO contact... but I betcha that would just give him all the "vacation" "freedom" and "independence" he keeps lamenting over, and he'd probably find a way into someones pants in no time, and THAT would be unrecoverable for me. I have thought of talking MIL into letting him stay so that when he's out I can still check his computer (and yeah, I mean it, I am NOT coming out of this with some sort of disease).

You really think I should just be giving up? I can't imagine that. The man I love is in there still, and he is sick... and I frankly feel like it's quicksand and I'm the last one holding on to REAL H, and if I let go he could entirely slip away... his mothers even convinced that a few years from now if he successfully ruins this that he would off himself, and I'm not sure she is wrong. You really think B-ing him will get him back IN? Why can't an intervention work with this addiction like with other addictions?

All an intervention does is tell an addict that people don't like his/her behavior. During an intervention, the addict can still make the choice: addiction or recovery. All the people that are apart of the intervention CANNOT MAKE your husband "see the light." HE either sees or he doesn't. YOU can't make him. NO ONE in the intervention can make him.

An addict will not change until the pain of change is actually less than the pain of staying on the path.

Your husband has no consequences for his actions. WHY? If this was a coke addiction, would you have let your husband bring coke into your house? Would you let him snort in your house? Would you say, "Oh, Okay. See you after you get high?"

I've asked you several times why you are tolerating his behavior. You've never said why.

You can't "love" your husband into making better choices. He has to love himself enough in order to do that. Or you need to provide something that will "help" him reach rock bottom faster. (In our case, he was loosing me and the kids.)

Honestly, rather than figure out situations in which you can still check up on him (which, btw-can become an addiction itself..), I'd honestly suggest you figure out why you put up with this behavior and what sort of consequences you can make your husband face for his crossing boundaries. I mean, consequences other than a wife turning into his mom.

It's very hard, to know that your life is now determined, in part by the actions of someone else. Someone that you cannot control. But that's how it goes.

ETA: Have you been doing a real plan A? (I'm not very good at that..I mostly look at the Emotional Needs stuff). Isn't no contact part of PLAN A. Meaning your husband should not have any contact on the internet?

WR,

First of all, Shabbat Shalom...

Plan B isn't for him. It is for YOU. It is supposed to protect and keep what little love you might have left for him for the day when he finally reaches a point where he wants to return. If your Love Bank is so depleted that you no longer have anything left to give to the relationship, then once he does want to return, you won't be able to work at recovery yourself.

When an affair ends and the WS commits to remaining married, they aren't yet ready to begin the hard work of recovery which requires a great deal of introspection and questioning one's own motives and actions. Before any of that can even begin, withdrawal from the affair partner must take place. This can take as long as the affair lasted in some cases and seldom takes less than about three weeks or so.

During this time the WS will be miserable and will make certain that they share the feeling with the BS, since it seems that misery really does love company.

If Plan A has been attempted (forgive me, but I simply don't have time to go back and read your whole thread, though I will try to do so if you would like me to) and has failed to bring the end of the affair then Plan B gives the only real option for a chance at recovery and reconciliation. During Plan B you begin to rebuild your own life and recover from the destruction of the marriage. You also learn to live without him, since he will not be giving anything to you in the way of support or even his mere presence when you are lonely.

A Plan B letter is supposed to be a love letter of sorts telling him that while you still love him, you simply cannot live with a third person in your relationship. It should also tell him what specifically you will require from him if he ever does wish to return to the marriage. This is not something you throw together in a moment of anger and frustration since it must clearly indicate that you do still love him and want only to have a restored relationship. At the same time it has to let him know that he must be willing to do certain things in order to show you by his actions that he has changed, is willing to work at helping you heal and building a new marriage from the ashes of the old one.

The reason Plan B is proposed by Dr Harley is that a real Plan A where the BS is meeting the ENs of the WS as much as possible while getting nothing in return just can't go on forever. Especially while the affair is active the BS is having to deal with continued stress and trauma while fighting for their very life on a daily basis. This can lead to all sorts of problems including depression, PTSD, other mental disorders and even physical manifestations as the result of the continued stress with no respite. So Dr Harley suggests that the BS sever all contact with the WS in order to stop the strain of dealing with the affair until the affair ends and the WS has gone through withdrawal and has gotten their head together enough to see that the marriage they had was a better starting point to a happy and productive life than the fantasy they have been chasing.

Statistically, over 95% of affairs end within two years. Because this is true, Dr Harley suggests that Plan B should last about that long. If at the end of that period the affair is still ongoing or the WS has not sought reconciliation then he says the BS is free to file for divorce if they wish and move on since any affair lasting longer is really an outlier and so might last 100 years or only another day or two and their is very little way to tell which it might be statistically.

If you go into Plan B and quit talking to him might you lose him? No doubt that the odds are higher than if you simply wait it out. The problem is that if you try to just wait out an affair your health will suffer and eventually your love will die utterly and completely so that it will be you who no longer wants the marriage.

To give you an idea of what can happen if you don't separate from him at some point consider that my wife's affair ended rather quickly, she committed to not leaving within weeks, committed to recovery within a couple of months of that date and soon after as things should have been improving for us I was felled by an infection caused by a bacteria that is on everyone's skin, exists in abundance in nature and when I had an infection caused by it I was one of only 7 cases being tracked by the CDC for that strain. All 6 others had been involved in a serious and traumatic injury that had weakened their immune systems to the point of near collapse. This from a guy who had used maybe 5 sick days in 20 years, had never been hospitalized and had only taken pain killers for two days after suffering 2nd degree burns...I was healthy as the proverbial horse until my wife's affair, which ended quickly butleft me worn out, exhausted and open to infection from something almost nobody has any problems with.

Plan B has a side effect as well in that it causes the WS to get any and all of their ENs met from the affair partner. If the AP had been really great at doing the job the WS would have filed for divorce long before the affair was discovered. By the fact that they waffle early on after D-day suggests that they know they are receiving something from the BS and don't want to lose it. Once the AP has to provide all EN fulfillment for the WS, the fantasy begins to crumble pretty rapidly in most cases because it really is only a fantasy that has no basis in reality. Seldom can the AP do a very good job of meeting ENs since both APs are in the mode of being purely selfish and cannot give enough to sustain the relationship very long at the fantasy level especially after beginning to wake to dirty socks beside the hamper instead of in it, dishes on piled in the sink and not put into the dishwasher, and all the rest of what a real relationship in the same house entails.

So if the affair continues and you are about to fall out of love with your WH, then Plan B is your only viable option since continued Plan A will put YOU at risk of falling out of love forever and for good...

Mar

Well, we all sat down and had a talk. He has agreed to see another therapist, one who is far more qualified that the current IC, and is a cognitive behavioralist like H has always been as opposed to the NeoFreudian that H has admitted is at least 30% cukoo in his estimation.

I also took away his favorite weapon, the threat to leave. I put into no uncertain terms that I.AM.DONE being a doormat, and won't tolerate lies and male-cow-manure. I gave him the option last night, and told him that I won't be giving him the option in the future, he MUST either commit to working on this in a healthy way without being a liar or a needlessly unpleasant person, or I will HELP HIM PACK. You should've seen his astonishment that I would help him pack. It needed to be done. I can't be a doormat if I don't lie down and take it, so I'm no longer lying down. He really did just have this threat at the ready whenever he felt he needed it, so I took it away.

I laid it out, that he should have no romantic ideas about what being out can be, because if he leaves he will not be cake-eating. He's given me all this crap about how we'll still be friends, yada yada. I told him I will NOT be a friend, he will leave with a letter that will lay out THE ONLY PATH back through the door, AND it doesn't lock me into opening the door, AND that I will not be making his leaving any easier in ways that would change my life or kiddo's life. (In other words, get the "you take a roomate in the house to offset my rent elsewhere" out of your mind, because it won't happen in a million years.)

OK, after 24 hours, I'm trying not to over-inflate my hope, but OMG I see HIM again. It's weird, but I see HIM again. He's still sleeping downstairs, but he's not being a d*ck anymore, and his general vibe isn't the nasty one it has been for so many weeks. He actually proactively applied for 2 jobs, which would bring him back to a normal work schedule, and though he had a brief pop-off comment early this morning, he realized very quickly that I was sticking to my guns on my willingness to pack him, and was immediately back to well-reasoned. Please, pray this sticks. He just told me, with a very calm and familiar smile that tomorrow morning he'll be calling his new therapist to book. It really does feel DIFFERENT for the first time in 4.5 months he REALLY does look alot like himself in his vibes, energy, mannerisms, expressions. Please, OH G-D, PLEASE. This couldn't have come a moment too soon, either, because I was honestly feeling too weak and beginning to be worried about my own judgements/reactions/integrity.

I am hopeful. You are a great example of why I fight so hard to get people to stand up for themselves. No one wants to give in and do what they should, if they think their SO will always be there to pick up the pieces; i.e., take them for granted. It's just human nature. He won't see you as an equal until YOU do. IMO, that is why you're getting the results you're getting now - you're finally standing up to him.

G-d, I hope so. I'm in such a weird place with all of this... I want so badly to protect myself by not getting too hopeful, but I feel such a swell of amazement at the difference I am already seeing. I need for this to be progress, because I'm just getting too weak to keep up this fight... I hate to admit it, but I am NO Superwoman, and I am really discovering my innate weakness after 4.5 months of hell. It was really empowering to explain to him that when he first did this, it was as if he had swung a 2x4 and smacked me in the head like he was going for a homerun, and that initially I was shocked and sad and bewildered and in the fetal position on the floor, but that I have now recovered my faculties enough to take the effin board away... I just need to keep that imagery, because it for some reason rings powerfully with me...

Hi WR,
I have been away from MB last week. I hope you are right and you are on a better path. I am so sorry you have to endure this trauma.

Good for MIL to take the side of the marriage. I hope she stays strong if he does leave, or he has HELP leaving. Have you talked to her about what would happen if YOU asked him to leave?

I actually encouraged my husband to leave, and he would not. I guessing yours would dig in his heals too, as long as your MIL did not take him in.

One caution. Be careful now that YOU are holding the "leaving" weapon, that you do not dilute it by using it as a threat that you do not follow with action.

Just be strong, confident and as ready as you can be.

Hopefully he will follow through with a therapist that is not a crackpot, and you will begin real recovery.

It is usually not that neat and tidy, though. Stay strong.