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I liked reading HNHN a whole lot more than LB
Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday 
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Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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But unless the Love Banks of both H and W are full and running over, none of that stuff will ever matter one bit, because when the divorce is over and they continue in IC for the next ten years or so they will eventually see what they needed to do better but will no longer be together as a couple because they never learned to make each other happy until it was too late.
So Dr Harley seeks to restore both Love Banks to full bore as his first step at recovery. Dealing with problems depletes the Love Bank because it involves doing and saying things that might be hurtful to each other.
Fixing the relationship from the top down, dealing with the biggest problems first almost ensures failure because those will be the things that put the biggest drain on the couple and cause the most conflict between them. And since long term issues that have always been a problem will be the hardest to fix since BOTH are fully entrenched in their positions and will not budge without something to get them to move. Ding, ding, ding, ding... This is so crystal clear. Huge light bulb going on. I see the difference between Dr. H and others and understand the importance of filling the Lovebank first. You stated this perfectly, Mark. Great checklist. Let's see how H and I are doing. (Of course the following is from my perspective only): The MB Method: The basis of this method flows from the Basic Concepts of Dr Harley.
1) Meeting each other’s most important Emotional Needs.
I hope so. I'm trying. H is MUCH better. But I'm noticing some "slacking" on his part recently on some things he was doing.
a. In order to meet each other’s ENs you must be able to identify these ENs.
I'm guessing what H's are. H hasn't asked.
i. Fill out the ENQ
I've done one so I know mine. H doesn't know mine and hasn't asked to know mine. H hasn't done one though I have asked him to.
ii. Agree to meet each others top ENs on an ongoing basis
I'm sold.
b. Because our ENs can and often do change as time goes on, the ENQ must be revisited occasionally in order to make adjustments necessary to continue working properly.
I'm willing. But guessing at H's to begin with.
c. Set aside time for Undivided Attention
We were so good about this after my confession. But in recent weeks H has been working so much so I don't know if this is lessening because of his job or because of his desire.
i. It is by spending time with each other that we are able to meet each other’s ENs
This is a great plan.
ii. Following the Policy of UA requires that we schedule the time to be together and make that time a priority in our lives.
We do not schedule this beyond occasional big events such as concerts.
2) Resolving conflict
a. The most effective way to do this is to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement
I'm doing this, though I still have a lot to learn. H isn't aware of it and he's not really following it. Though he is again, better then before.
b. Failure to follow POJA can cause resentment to build up over time and become a drain on the Love Bank thus causing a future failure of the marriage
I agree.
c. It must be remembered that only enthusiastic agreement fulfills the requirements of POJA. Anything less is destined to cause resentment in the future
I've lived this and believe this.
3) Avoiding conflict
a. The Policy of Radical Honesty can go a long way to avoiding conflict
Yep.
i. Informing each other of plans for near and long term is required to keep from causing resentment and depletion of the Love Bank
I am sooooo much better about this.
ii. Giving each other veto power over our plans ensures that we can never do anything that will cause conflicts that might be difficult to resolve after the fact
Ummm... I can't see H practicing this. And my stubborness might cause problems here too. But I'm more willing than I was. Especially with my family. If H says no (with the exception of my big mistake of asking Sis for ticket help), it's no.
b. Following the PORH also prevents a secret second life from being established
Yep.
i. Total honesty requires that we share our feelings with each other, both positive and negative
I am. H is not a liar, but I'm not sure he's sharing everything with me.
ii. Honesty also requires that we never do things that fall under the Love Buster category of Independent Behavior, since we are sharing all aspects of our life with each other
Lesson learned!
4) Avoiding making withdrawals from the Love Bank
a. Identify Love Busters
Done.
i. Complete the LBQ
Done by me. Not H.
ii. Agree to avoid love busting behavior
Agreed. Trying to fully practice.
b. Set aside time to report progress and give feedback
Not doing at all.
i. Adjust behavior as needed
Learning necessary adjustments through experience and guessing and feedback here.
ii. Communicate openly concerning LBs using PORH
Failing here. I try and am met with little understanding of what I'm asking for. I need to let me guard down too.
c. Avoid IB by following POJA
Okay.
5) Have no friends that are not also friends of the marriage.
True today.
6) Repeat the process…
Over and over... The key to making the whole process work is UA because unless we spend time together we never get to make LB$ deposits. And UA is NEVER to be for the purpose of fixing things. It is to be recreational time only. This is something we may be sacrificing. I want more of it. But it feels like we're settling back into old patterns. I try to make myself available to him, but I haven't been pushing it. Perhaps it goes to the discussion here about demanding/asking for things from my H. If H wants to play his guitar or ride his motorcycle or work, I don't feel I can ask him not to. Perhaps he's not feeling like he wants to be around me and I sure don't want to rock the boat -- I'm in no position to do so. My thinking has been that if playing his guitar or going out with his friend makes him happy, I want that and won't push another agenda. Combine UA with killing Love Busters and soon you WANT to start to fix things because you are both Buyers once more and not just Renters waiting for something better to happen before taking the next step they need to take.
The foundation of marriage is romantic love and romantic love is what MB methods strive to create. I want romantic love SOOOOOOOOO badly. So badly. FAL/SIL has a chapter about one partner in a marriage using MB methods to fill the LB$ of the withdrawn partner in order to save a marriage from disaster. Just so you know, the person who leads this effort usually falls short of full intimacy in the end but if the other person has a full LB$ they are usually willing to help top off the LB$ of the one who worked so hard to pull the marriage back from oblivion. Just be aware that this takes way longer than you want it to and even longer than you think it will, even after adjusting for what I just said, the process takes a long time. I have this book but have yet to read a single page. Don't worry about communications or that stuff yet. Make him fall so hopelessly in love with you that he will run through walls for you and then he will be so willing to change for you that his actions will amaze you. Please oh please oh please oh please help him be willing. So fill his Love Bank (meet his ENs), avoid making withdrawals (avoid Love Busters) and strive to get his Love Bank balance back from the brink. He's there because he wants to be there and for no other reason. He has stayed because he wants to stay.
Beyond that, don't worry about why he's there. But his Love Bank is so low that he doesn't WANT to fill yours. He's in full Taker mode. You can get him to work from Giver mode by building up his LB$ balance. Then he will begin to fill YOUR LB$ without you having to ask for it all the time. I need to print this out and read it every day, over and over and over again. Notice I didn't say anything about what he should do. That's because I wasn't talking to him. Got it.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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My suggestions are to try to raise his LB$ balance to a point where he routinely cares, though might still be selfish (his Taker in charge) in a state of Conflict, which is an improvement from Withdrawal since in Withdrawal we don't even care if we get anything from the other person and both Giver AND Taker are unwilling to get involved. Once he is NEAR Intimacy, his Giver will start to work a little, giving back to L4 raising her LB$ balance enough to give her hope to continue and with a little luck, a really good round of EN meeting will push him into Intimacy and his Giver will take over for a while and he WILL begin to give without having to wonder and worry about what he will get in return.
A great marriage only exists where both partners are meeting each others ENs routinely and avoiding Love Busters to keep both LB$ balances about the level required to maintain Intimacy day after day. Even once achieved it requires work by both to remain at a level where both of you are in Intimacy, which is the goal. Once achieved though, remaining at those levels becomes easier because BOTH are willing to give to the other which is why POJA needs to be used so neither gives away the farm. Thank you for this, Mark.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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L4, are you and H spending the 15 hrs/week of UA? Nope.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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This is all such good stuff. L4, I was feeling better today. But now I feel inspired. Thank you for sharing your ups and downs.
Wishing you lots more ups with your latest enlightenments.
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hey, how do you like the book? I like in that it makes sense. Imagine that, among other things, someone getting upset with you seemingly out-of-the-blue would bother you?  What made me stand up and notice was just two pages into the "Introduction". It reads "...they did not understand how their mistakes contributed to their loss of love for each other... How spouses affect each other has a tremendous bearing on the success or failure of marriage. If your friend's wife would simply stop doing the things that upset him and start doing the things that make him feel terrific, your friend's complaining would be over and something else would happen too. Your friend would once again be in love." It's so 'But of course!' And the stuff on passion. That's what I think is lacking and has been. So much. I am very passionate. Ask people who know me and I wear my thoughts on my sleeve. (In case you had missed that somewhere among these few dozen pages.) Human interaction is important to me. And I'd love to feel that my H has feelings of passion for me. I've been reading the book in bed, in the living room... H hasn't asked me what I'm reading. Maybe he doesn't have to ask because the title is so big on it so it's obvious, perhpas he doesn't care, maybe it makes him nervous, or maybe he hasn't noticed... I don't know. But he hasn't asked about it. we aren't finished it yet but I love it, lol, despite it being the one that seems to point out everything we do wrong. I hear ya.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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This is all such good stuff. L4, I was feeling better today. But now I feel inspired. Thank you for sharing your ups and downs. We can do this, right ST?  Wishing you lots more ups with your latest enlightenments. Thank you.
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So this last week was really good. It's like H took a pill Monday morning and he was a different person. Not foreignn and not completely LB free, but unusually upbeat for H, especially compared to the previous few months. Probably the most days-in-a-row of him smiling more and talking more. Thursday he IMed me and told me he wants me to go to the concert with him after all. I told him I'd love to go with him and only him. So plans are back on. He's in Vegas right now and I'm trying to swing it so I can get down there for a couple of days too. It's hung up on getting an overnight baby-sitter for Tuesday night. H is going to be slammed with clients and will probably only be with me from 12mid - 7am, but that's still better then nothing. And Thursday we'd get a few hours between when his conference is over and when the plane departs. So I'm working it 'cuz I'd love to make it happen. I hid a humorous card in H's suitcase. I hope it makes him smile. The two moments of pause this week -- which are going to make y'all roll your eyes, and I PROMISE I'm not dwelling on either of these -- which is the difference between 2 weeks ago and now. (I'm not over-analyzing as much any more...) Last night H asked me if I had washed his jeans. I said that I didn't know. I had done three loads of laundry the night before and had done three loads that afternoon including all of his dress shirts. It turns out, I hadn't gotten to his jeans. Apparently his favorites that he likes to wear when he travels. (Didn't know.) It bothered me that I had washed a heck of a lot of clothes but had missed one article. I didn't get a thanks for what I had done but instead disappointment for the little I had not done. There was still time to get his jeans washed so after questioning me about how I select what to wash and judging how I do so, H threw his pants in the machine. The other is that we haven't been physically intimate much at all. I was hoping especially before he left for the next 6 days, but anyway... What's different in all this is that 11 days ago, I'd be in a panic about these couple of things, even though he had been having good days. I'd be so focused on what I might have done wrong when duh! I had an affair for goodness sake? Does H need another reason? I have come to a kind of peace within myself. I very much want to stay married to H. I love him and I want to live a life of romantic love and respectful care with him. But if it can't happen, it won't be for lack of effort on my part. And if that's the case, I'll have to be okay with that. God will take care of me. I've been practicing the ideas of how to stop thinking of FOM when the triggers happen. And I've been quite successful. It's still a work in progress, but already they're better. So thank you very much, Mark, for your fantastic post and all of you who gave ideas on how to get through FOM memories and replace with other memories or better yet -- good memories of H. That's all for now. The journey continues... 
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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Another thing that I think has been helping me... I am staying away from most other threads on here. I realize this is not a good endorsement of MB and I don't mean it that way, as MB is saving me and hopefully our M... But I found myself getting so mired in other people's situations and every day I'd get involved in another's and another's, even when I wouldn't post. And then on those threads when they'd turn "snotty" for lack of a better term, I'd find my emotions all over the place. So why was I doing it? Right now I need to focus my energies on more important things like my H and my M.
I have my favorites and those I have bookmarked here that I check in on as often as I can. And selfish as it may be, that's all I want to do for now as part of my own healing. If you ever read someone that you think I might benefit from or where I might be able to provide a word or two to, let me know. I trust those of you have been helping me here to have good ideas of where my time might be well spent. Otherwise I'm sticking to those I know.
That's all.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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Random thoughts from today... During adult Sunday school today, someone quoted an author who wrote, "Life is ultimately what you pay attention to." I need to pay better attention to the good H is doing and what he's bringing to the R -- especially because it must be so hard. From today's sermon: "No one out-gives God." Sis offered to chaffeur my kids around Tuesday night and stay with them so that I can go to Vegas to spend a couple of nights with H who's there for a conference. My Dad is going to baby-sit Wednesday night so H and I can come back together late Thursday. H found the card I hid among his luggage. He thanked me for it. Tonight when H and I were about to hang up the phone, I said, "I love you," and H said, "I love you too." I about fell out of my chair. I don't know if it was a mindless reaction to what I had said and he wasn't even thinking or if he was very aware of what he was saying. But I noticed big time as it's the first time he has said this on the phone to me since I confessed.
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday
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Sis offered to chaffeur my kids around Tuesday night and stay with them so that I can go to Vegas to spend a couple of nights with H who's there for a conference. My Dad is going to baby-sit Wednesday night so H and I can come back together late Thursday. Thank goodness, I thought I was going to have to buy a ticket and fly someplace?, to watch them myself. H found the card I hid among his luggage. He thanked me for it. Awesome ... Tonight when H and I were about to hang up the phone, I said, "I love you," and H said, "I love you too." I about fell out of my chair. So did I as I read.  I know how much this must have meant to you.  Yes .... baby steps Work on that 15hrs/week thing eh! I don't know if you have photos plastered all over the front of your fridge, with small kids you most likely do along with other kiddy things. A few months ago I cleaned the front of mine off with good reason. I found a pic of 'goal cottage' that H and I have for the future. Just a suggestion ... clear a space right on the front of the fridge, and post a pic of the best and happy Mr. and Mrs. L4, as a reminder and a goal, and not just for you. Obvious but subtle IKWIM. 
M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA
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I liked reading HNHN a whole lot more than LB Hey lil, Maybe there just wasn't anything that you could relate to. 
M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA
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6YL:
You ask what the Harley Success rate is?
There is no percentages I think that are reliable. Published here or anywhere. Yes, Dr. Harley will state that his plan is 100% guaranteed to work. That is a sales pitch.
But there are MANY variables that come into play to making that 100%. And really, if both partners are NOT committed, then no methods are going to work.
And in Dr. Harley's case? I think his method is the BEST one out there and is more successful than all the others. His method CAN work if only one party is doing all the work, and folows the plans, because slowly but surely the other party can come around.
We are ALL STUBBORN. And its easier to make your decisions, if the OTHER PARTY is AT FAULT. That is the dynamic that destroys most marriages. It doesn't matter if there is infidelity, or other things going on. Its alot easier just to think that your perfect and the other party is broken.
So, there are no reliable statistics. Just do a graph of the folks who sign up on theis DB. How many join, and how many recover. And its a sad statistic. But if you pull out the group that did the MB weekend, read the books, applied the concepts, and changed thier behaviors, the success in that group is really high.
Keep going L4. Your going in the right direction. Your husband may come around. Its a big ship to turn, but its his to turn.
LG
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Tonight when H and I were about to hang up the phone, I said, "I love you," and H said, "I love you too." Enjoy Vegas. If you and H like shows, Le Reve at The Wynn is great.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Tonight when H and I were about to hang up the phone, I said, "I love you," and H said, "I love you too." Hello Looking4, What a wonderful thing to hear after missing it for so long... For a man that has had the awareness and self control to AVOID saying it because he didn't WANT to say it yet I believe it was purposefully said... Well done, cowgirl!!! I am sure you are well aware of the reason he HAD NOT said it up to this point... the reason was... EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER STOPPED LOVING YOU, HE DID NOT FEEL SAFE ENOUGH WITH YOU TO LET YOU SEE THAT HE STILL LOVED YOU... How could he let the person who held his heart have that power and control over him again??? He's trying to trust you with his love again... If he's like most it's on a trial basis to make sure that it is real on your part... Make sure you continue being VERY considerate of your intentional AND unintentional behavior and attitudes because he will be watching to see how his gift of allowing himself to be vulnerable to you is received... give him his confidence in you again by continuing the things you are doing and remember not to get upset if occasionally he feels a little down and DOESN'T say it back... just continue being the same unflappable LOVING you giving him his one SAFE place to be in the world... Proud of you... Jim
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L4,
I'm not sure about this but I think it might be a good idea to tell him how much it meant to you to hear those words. You are going to have some good UA time together in Vegas where you could find a good way to do it. I would bet this is a test on his part, so don't just let it slide by.
Me 42 BS
Wife 41 FWW (exwife now)
Divorced 10/14/2008
S 21
D 18
D 16
S, S 13 (twins)
Grandson 8 months
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I'm not sure about this but I think it might be a good idea to tell him how much it meant to you to hear those words. I was wondering about this. I was so dumbfounded when I heard it that I think I stuttered. I wanted to say, "Did you hear what you just said?" But I also didn't want to ruin the moment in case it was an accident. I mean, what if he had said, "Oh, I didn't mean that. I did that just out of old habit." I remembered in that split second what someone had said here... Don't ask a question if you don't think you can handle the answer. If you think I should, maybe I will. Or wait until/unless I hear it again? You are going to have some good UA time together in Vegas where you could find a good way to do it. Unfortunately this isn't true. In fact I'll probably see H less then we do when we're at home. This conference is HUGE and H is there working the floor from 8am until 6pm, then it's dinners and schmoozing with clients into the evening. I'm going with the expectation that I'll see H when he comes back to the room to sleep. We thought it would be good just in case he gets a free minute or two. My job is portable so I'll be working in the morning from the hotel room then might just sleep in the afternoon or get a massage or hang by the pool... Thursday he's done at 2pm and we'll have a few hours before our plane leaves in the evening. But I don't care. I'll get to be there for him when he comes back to the room so he can vent or snuggle or whatever. 
Me (FWW): 45
BH: 46
M: 11/94
PA: 2/08 (4 mos)
Confessed: 10/08
DS10
DD8
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