OH, I thought of you this morning. Playboy put out their list of the top 10 party colleges. Guess what is on it? Yep, UA!

btw, we went to San Antonio to do the UIW tour, which D18 was 50/50 on. I've rarely seen a place so poorly kept up as that school. One of the admissions counselors came to sit with us at lunch, and I asked him about upkeep, and he made some lame 'oh we do a great job' speech, so I pointed above us and said 'so how do you explain the black mold on the air conditioning ducts?' lol, he just got that deer in the headlights look, got all flustered. Then the cafeteria girl wouldn't 'let' me have a to-go cup to take my tea with me, so I just took one of their real glass glasses and filled it up and walked out! I was so mad by then I didn't care. They come hustling after me to get the glass back (I was only walking to the lounge area outside the cafeteria)! The counselor ended up getting me a glass but I refused it; I was so mad by then.

Why do places like that not send their admissions people to marketing training? Are they not trying to get my $30,000/year spent there? Geez. Oh, and then he sends us to look at some dorms and nearly every surface - in the 'sample' dorm room, mind you! - was missing trim or peeling off or had air vents so filthy you couldn't see see behind them!

My D18's a slob, allergic to cleaning, but even SHE wanted to get out of there ASAP.

That's the first time I've seen UA on that list. Ugh. Usually it's Arizona State. The other 9 schools have made that list almost every year it seems. In fact, US News & World report released their list and it was almost identical, except ASU was on it, not UA.

Oh well, you can find a party at any school. Here's hoping my son won't get too carried away.

Here's a link to the top 10 party schools as published by the Princeton Review. UA not on this one!

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/departments/college/?article=Top10PartySchools09

Cat, I'm trying to not assume. When you said "Are they not trying to get my $30,000/year spent there?" you meant DD18's scholarship and loan money, right? Please tell me you're not planning to take on more personal debt for your daughter's education, when you two haven't funded your retirement yet.

I put myself through school with scholarships, grants, work, and loans in my name only, not my parents. The result was I was really invested in my education. You didn't have to worry about me partying instead of studying when it was time to study, because no way was I going to pay for a course twice. There wasn't much time left after school and work, but I still got a lot of fun in It would have been great if my parents would have helped me out, but they hadn't saved, nor were they willing to sign a PLUS loan in their name, and I did fine.

And too, cat, this way you can keep your daughter from perpetuating this "living above your means" into her own life, if she finances her own education.

ears, heck no. She knows it's going to be loans for what we don't have saved. But IMO, college is non-negotiable. And the one she chose is about half that. But UIW is a private school, so they cost a lot more. And we've already looked into the work program at the school she wants to go to; I reminded her yesterday that, after the first semester (to get acclimated), I won't be paying for incidentals, and she still has to pay for her car/insurance. So she knows she has to go to work, too. Actually, she has offered to go to the local community college for 2 years, but I'm not going to let my financial mistakes ruin her college years.

Gotcha. I think I knew that about your daughter, that she's pretty gracious like that, doesn't expect to be handed things.

Cat, studies have shown that the biggest reason for dropping out of college is more than 4-6 hours of work per week during the semester. The primary work should be either coop programs within the school, or full time work during the summer to pay for stuff during the school year. This means that work should be limited to Saturday, or no more than 1 hour per day during the week.

As far as partying goes, the combination of freedom with the belief that one can't have alcohol in any way until 21 leads to going wild in college. My son is in his sophomore year with junior standing, and he told me about kids who drank to coma status and ended up in the hospital. he himself couldn't resist finally, and went to a frat party, had 15 beers, and drunk the second day made him realize its not all its cracked up to be. . . He also thought he had "super human tolerance" until i explained that I used to be able to drink that much as well, but I am no longer 20, so I can't drink more than two, of my choosing. . . . . my dd who is 17, got drunk during a weekend at a friends house, which she instigated. . . great learning experience. . . she really didn't like the hangover status either, and so she pretty much stays away from alcohol. . .

its best they try these activities at home under supervision. . . before going away with unlimited freedom. . .

youu are warned!

wiftty

It's become clear to me that the kids are a hot/contentious topic between us. I am trying not to undermine H about the kids. I don't think I've been all that successful.

I worked in my office today--not from home. The kids are off school today. H was home. Yesterday, while I was out running errands and helping my oldest man a concession stand (they are trying to fundraise to get to Knoxville to compete in a national competition next month), H was home with the youngest doing yard work. When I got home, he said he grounded her for 3 days because he had to call her 4 times to come outside. I didn't say anything but I was thinking he might regret that today when he's home with the kids and she gets an invite to go play at a friend's house! I've made similar mistakes; given the kids consequences that made more work for me and could have been best served with a different consequence. I also think the punishment should fit the crime but I realize that there's some subjectivity involved. In this case, H thought that the punishment fit.

So I get home tonight, remembering to adjust my mood so that I wasn't all pissy when I got home. I was pleased to see the kids and H had read my email requesting they clean up the kitchen before I got home. That was nice and I made sure I told him that. The rest of the yardwork was done.

But H had had a frustrating day, it seems. He said he spent all day picking up after the kids. I asked him if he could have just left it to them. He said that he did but they didn't listen.

After dinner, H was yelling at DD9 about a bunch of stuff. It seemed to me that his frustration with her from the day was bubbling over. He forgot he grounded her so he sent her to a friend's house. Then he was mad that she didn't remember. She ate all her dinner and asked for some ice cream and he started to lecture her about how she would get fat if she just ate junk food. When she was out of earshot, I told him that I worried about eating disorders because she is a girl and hence more prone and because I suffered in high school from bulima and in college from anorexia. I was almost hospitalized. One of his closest friend has a college age daughter who is very ill with anorexia right now. Our daughter is very ht/wt proportionate--in fact she's probably on the thin side and to be fair to H, she could definitely improve her eating habits. It's a struggle to find the right balance though--to help her make the right eating decisions without making food an issue.

Anyway, he's yelling at her, then he's yelling at the other two for not clearing the dishes right away and he's bringing in all the other stuff they did over the weekend and yelling at them for that. When they were all out of earshot I went up to him and said "H, could you please try to say please/thank you and perhaps not yell at them so much tonight? Is there another way you think you could get your point across to them?"

He was quiet for about 10 min. I thought 'ok, I did this right--he's thinking about it!" But that' wasn't the case. He came into the room and started yelling at me. "If you want Kid #1 to be this way, and this to happen to Kid #2 and Kid #3 to be that way, then I'll just remove myself from all of this and you can do it your way." He went on like this for a few minutes--listing all the kids' 'faults' and suggesting that, if he stepped away, they'd all continue on this downward slope.

So when I could interject something, I said "so am I hearing you say that the kids are this way because I'm not tough enough on them?" And he said "as usual, you didn't hear anything I said. You were just waiting for the the chance to jump in and contradict me. Fine, do it your way from now on. I'm out of it."

::

That's when I hand him a nice card and inside it says 'It sucks being a baby all the time, doesn't it?'

Ok, not really, but I'd be thinking it.

What happened to discussing moving out?

Well at least you recognise it. I can see why your H got upset and will share my thoughts in case they haven't occurred to you already.

To me this sounds like "You made the wrong choice. You should have left it to them." Also condescending somehow. A DJ. Safer to talk about you, if you must, ("I'd have tried ot get them to pick them up" or better yet bring it up (POJA) another time, and in the meantime sympathise with dealing with messy kids.

Like, he did the job, and you criticised.

Do you and H have an agreement on "getting the kids to clean up after themselves"?


Did you acknowledge H's point of view as well as stating yours? If not, it comes across as an attempt to overrule him.

You say H was 'lecturing' - do you respect his viewpoint?

I agree with your concern, and H's as it happens having seen the effects of junk food on kids from my first M. And W's insistence on buying (and hiding) the stuff was one reason why that M failed.

Look around you and you will see the effects of the Western diet - obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure. Sickness and premature death.

The 'right balance' in our house is no junk food in the house (ie nobody brings any in), but no fuss made when they are offered junk food outside the house. Which happens A LOT!

There's no minimum daily requirement for junk food and I actually don't get why people buy and eat poison and feed it to their kids. Advertising and habit I guess.

Who actually buys the junk food in your house? Do you and H have an agreement on 'the right amount of junk food to feed our kids'?

There's got to be an agreement you and H could strike that would satisfy both viewpoints.


Suggests that yelling, as much as you like, is fine every other night, but for tonight, you'd like him to yell just a little bit. Is that what you want? Yelling at the kids is wrong. I bet your H knows this too and actually I would have taken offense at the way you said that. The implication is that you think H doesn't know it's wrong to yell at the kids.

I thought that sounded patronising. Overtones of teacher / student, or parent / child.


That's what happened to the kids from my first M. Seems to me your H is very frustrated that you are dismissing his views. The bits in bold , 'went on', and the quote marks tell me you discount his views.

DJ (SD). But
if one person's doing and the other's criticising, this is the type of response to expect.

I think the only thing you did wrong was try and reason with your husband.

1. He is an abuser, verbal, etc.

2. He does not know how to treat people

3. He hates children.

4. He is super stressed out for some reason (lazy as he is) and hates noise and just likes to torture people.

So, the thing that makes me wonder is WHY? WHY do you expect ANYTHING out of your husband????

He has proven that he is unstable and abusive. Try and get away from him, already the kids will need years of counseling for thier problems (your husband's abuse and lack of love for the kids) when they get older. It will cost each of them Marriages, money, time, energy to heal themselves. **edit**

5, all valid points, if she were married to a guy who didn't turn down all job opportunities for 5 years because he was 'better' than that.

IMO, he has given up the right to dictate to the family for the 4+ years after the first year he was unemployed and never looked at getting a job at the mall, the gas station, McDonalds...whatever it took to feed his own kids.

Just have to add my take on junk food. My family grew up without sweets of any kind. Mom didn't cook or bake; never bought a single dessert I can remember except for a birthday cake here and there. When I had a paper route with my brother, we blew every penny on candy, sweets, Icees, anything sweet. To this day, it is my 'treat' for whenever I'm treated poorly.

After 10 years of marriage and watching our friends have a strict no-sweets policy, and watching them literally gorge themselves on our junk food when they came over, I got the idea to not rid our house of junk food once D18 was born. I decided, from a psychological standpoint, that if I forbid her junk food, she would get a yearning for it and actually even become fat on it.

So we bought whatever we felt like having, kept it stocked. As I expected, what happened was that since she knew she could have sweets/junk food whenever she wanted...she didn't want it.

Now, her friends are a different story. She had a friend who practically lived with us, after school each day (single mother). Her mother never allowed her anything except what was on the 'menu.' When the situation changed, and she knew she wasn't come over any more, I caught her up in the junk food cubboard, literally scooting piles full of junk food into her backpack so that, when she was 'on her own,' she wouldn't be completely cut off. Even today, we know what days D18's friends come over, because one of the snack areas in the cubboards is always empty. Because they don't know when they'll get any next, so they horde. Just like I did, and D18's friends did...when you don't know when it's coming next, you horde.

I read an interesting article about depression this AM. Here are the signs.

---Increased difficulty making decisions and facing life's challenges.
---A weakened immune system, resulting in more and longer-lasting illnesses.
---Insomnia, which leads to fatigue, reduced mental clarity, and trouble concentrating.
---A higher risk of death in the event of a heart attack or stroke.
---Alcohol and drug use, abuse, and dependence.
---Long-term disability, resulting in lost wages and financial struggle.
---Strained relationships with family and friends.

Fits H to a "T". The problem is, he says he's 'done' with shrinks, meds, etc.

For Stella and 5/6, I'm sure you mean well, but neither of your posts help me at all. 5/6 seems determined to make me out to be the big baddie and cut H all the breaks. I know I'm the one who is here and all that--but no matter how consistently I try to apply MB principles, it doesn't seem to have any positive effect. This AM: I'm trying to work. Usually I work downstairs in a small computer room but the kids are home this week and S18 is down there doing something he needs to have in for UA. My laptop is in our bedroom. I hate to move it because there is a loose connection with the A/C cord and it's hard for me to get it back on A/C power after I've unplugged it. So it's 8:30. H is still in bed. It's 9AM and he's now awake but having coffee and watching the History Channel. Kids are making their own breakfast. I get on the phone to make a call. He mutes the TV (which wasn't really bothering me but I appreciated it). When I was done, he said "I can hear that guy from here". So I said 'wow, was he that loud?" And then he got angry because he thought I misunderstood him and was getting defensive about the guy being too loud and bothering HIM, when what he was trying to say was that he thought the guy was a jerk. So this comes out to me as "I feel like I'm speaking a foreign language around you. You don't get what I'm saying." And he gets up with a disgusted sound.

I was actually glad to have him out of the room so I didn't argue but still... Here I am now feeling bad? It's 10AM on a weekday--I shouldn't feel bad. But I feel like 'uh oh, I pissed him off again. Why can't I do anything right?'

And yes, I know that's screwed up thinking. And Stella, I don't need to hear from you how my kids are going to commit suicide because I couldn't take them away from their father. In fact, I'm going to report that part of the post. It's over the top--even for you.

That's because he has abusive tendencies - everything revolves around him, and it's his job in life to manipulate everyone to make sure it stays that way. Even if he isn't aware he's doing it. Using MB will not work with someone who is intent on manipulating you to keep the status quo - and to keep from having to find a job! Honestly, I don't see how you can allow that. I would have kicked him out 2 or 3 years ago, and you know how much of a wuss I am! Even I would not accept that.

Because he is manipulating the situation so he can stay on top and you on the bottom, worrying about upsetting him. Go back and read Why Does He Do That? You need to firm up your perspective so you can recognize when you're getting used.

How long has he been back? You told him he had 3 weeks, right? So what has happened?

OH-

Can you look past the offensive comment about your kids committing suicide to look to the intent of what Bubbles is trying to say?

Personally, I don't believe all kids who are brought up in homes where there's dysfunction (be it abuse, addiction, mental illness what have you) that turn out mentally/emotionally OK on their own. If all kids of alcoholics turned out fine, there wouldn't be 12-step programs to help them. If it was OK for kids to live in abusive situations, teachers/doctors wouldn't be obligated by law to report abuse to cps.

You are trying to apply MB with the premise that your husband is in a state that the MB principals will work. I think, that assumes some level of mental/emotional stability. If MB won't work when addiction is present (like alcoholism), why do you believe MB will work on your husband?

How would your reaction change, if MB really doesn't work on your husband, because of where he is now?

That's not to say, though, that you shouldn't continue to be the best person you can be, which is the point of Plan A.

I will stick my neck out and say I'm surprised at how your husband treated your 9 year old. He's not fighting "fair" with her (by bringing up transgressions from the past). He's expecting her to be the parent (being mad at her that she forgot she was grounded, when he did as well). And yes, the punishment was excessive for not coming when called. Your daughter is a child. Listening IS a "punishable" offense in our house. But we use a time out or putting a toy in a time out.

What is your husband's parenting goal? What's yours? Do they match at all?

Ugh.... I feel raked over the coals whenever I come back to this thread. Maybe I should just give it up.

1. Yes, he has an alcohol issue. He doesn't agree with me. So toss MB out the window right there.

2. Yes, he's emotionally abusive and verbally abusive although not intentionally. It's gotten him what he wants all his life, (my caving in included) so what reason does he have to change? So toss MB principles out there as well.

3. Yes, we've discussed parenting. Years back when things were better between us, we were closer in theory on parenting ideas. In practice, we're nowhere near close. And it's gotten worse as his own personal issues have gotten worse. I can see what's happening. He's exerting control over the remaining area of his life where he feels he can INSIST on control.

Don't you think I feel guilty enough for not kicking him out the door? Why do you think I'm working so hard on getting him to Oregon? Because it accomplishes something I want and need and that will be good for the kids, with a minimum of stress and arguing.

I'm ready to just drop out of this forum.

OH, I know your H sounds depressed, but I wonder if there's a little projection there, too. That if your H gets help for his depression, yours will lift. And we read here in MB that's correct. But his depression hasn't lifted yet today.

Look inside. Look around, hon. Where do you see His "hands and feet" in your life today? Who can you call IRL? How 'bout another jog with your friend? How 'bout starting your day over? Maybe you can call out to Jayne or Soolee or someone else whose message speaks to you where you are? They have been awesome at reminding me that there is so much to be grateful for in today, too, that I can choose my focus. The posts that were hard to read today may resonate for you at another point.

OH, I know you feel pushed here. So do I. It's not pretty, nor is it comfortable.

But think of the alternative. The next 30-50 years spent with regrets, unhappiness, depression...

You can change this! You can choose healthy steps today! One baby step at a time. If you've read my thread, you'll see that I recognize when I'm ready for growth and when I'm not. Others see it, too, and help me. Other times I just curl up in a ball and wait it out.

But people wouldn't push if they didn't see potential for you. You're such a strong, smart, capable person...the world is your oyster! But you gotta make the hard steps.

Cat, your marriage to your husband is in much better shape. He's not addicted or exhibiting abusive behavior. It's a communication issue, among others, which requires you to step outside your comfort zone but you are rewarded with a better marriage.

I'm not in that position. I have stepped outside my comfort zone and have seen nothing in return for my efforts. The only thing that will help me is to be on my own with the kids and the best and least instrusive way (for the kids) to do that is for him to move to Oregon. So that's what I'm working towards and in the meantime, I'm trying to preserve my sanity.

Agreed, OH, but in the meantime, you can learn and practice better interaction skills to preserve your sanity when dealing with someone like him. That's why I recommend reading more specific stuff on how to interact with such a person so that he's not constantly pushing your buttons and leaving YOU wounded, while he carries on in traditional fashion. I want you to protect yourself.

Please continue to keep posts respectful and helpful to posters. There are several posts on this thread and others that are clear violations of TOS that were not reported to the Moderating Staff. We need your help in identifying these posts when they happen. If you are not sure, notify us anyway and we will take a look and watch the thread.

TOS here

Be good! Thanks, Revera